Talk:California Firefighters Memorial

Memorial list

In the recently concluded Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Cal Fire firefighters killed in the line of duty, there was discussion of the list of 34(?) persons, whether it can or should be included in the article. The AFD was closed with judgment "Keep but delete list of memorialized persons", which may be fine as an expression of the consensus of the AFD discussion, but that does not permanently over-rule a different decision here at the Talk page.

There is guideline wp:NOTMEMORIAL, but what that says is "Wikipedia is not the place to memorialize deceased friends, relatives, acquaintances, or others who do not meet such requirements", and that does not rule out including some type of list here, I think. There certainly are Wikipedia pages that fully report text appearing on a monument or historic plaque. Wikipedia has other lists of "persons who died" that are similar, e.g. List of Mayflower passengers who died in the winter of 1620–21. And Emergency workers killed in the September 11 attacks is another. See Category:Death-related lists and Category:Death in the United States-related lists for more.

On the other hand, the California Firefighters Memorial list is going to keep changing. It may be a good solution for this page just to provide a link to the complete list of names on an external website, which will be kept updated.

Another issue may be that the article needs such a list to support statement(s) made in the article. For example

As of April 2016, the memorial honors 158 Cal Fire firefighters who have died from work-related causes, of which 34 are known to have died directly due to actions in response to a fire or other emergency.

is written in the article without a separate source provided, so I wonder if the "34" number is in fact supported by the list. If that is the case, then some version of the list is needed, at least in a footnote, to support the statement.

Comments? --doncram 23:15, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

• Object to any restoration of the list of people, whether in the body, footnote, or elsewhere. The consensus at the AFD was quite clear and this appears to be an attempt to make an end-run around it. Including an external link to such a list is not an issue. Stifle (talk) 13:05, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Portions of what I added to separate article apply only to one fire department. The California memorial is for all fire departments,. Since there is no longer a stand-alone Cal Fire article, those Cal Fire specific comments might be inappropriate for inclusion in an article about the whole fire service. Reddgroom (talk) 20:10, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Is James Kenney somehow more notable than all the other hundreds of names? Who should be listed specifically here and who should not? Reddgroom (talk) 20:34, 29 April 2016 (UTC)