Talk:California State Route 88

History section - US versus California Route 104

The map in the History section appears to be in error by showing Route 104 with a US highway shield. U.S. Route 104 was in New York, and has since been downgraded to a state highway. California State Route 104 appears to be intended since it matches the alignment description, including passing through or near Ione. Msramming (talk) 03:19, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

Using the wrong shield to mark a highway is a relatively common map error. I wouldn't lose sleep over it. Such errors are easily detected by comparing maps from different publishers. Dave (talk) 23:49, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:California State Route 88/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Bneu2013 (talk · contribs) 02:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this article, and will have comments soon. Bneu2013 (talk) 02:46, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

General comments

• Article passes the Earwig test.

• Images are properly licensed.

• Infobox looks okay, except for one thing, shouldn't the eastern terminus be labeled "SR 88 at the Nevada state line at/near <city>"?

There's not a hard rule on how to handle cases like this in the infobox. As a general rule, you do want to keep the text as short as practical, so the infobox doesn't crowd the screen space when viewed on small screens. However, I tweaked a bit and have state line without causing the infobox to display any wider than before. This ok? Dave (talk) 22:51, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine. Bneu2013 (talk) 23:49, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Lead

• It travels in an east–west direction from Stockton in the San Joaquin Valley, crossing the Sierra Nevada at Carson Pass, and ending at the Nevada state line, whereupon it becomes Nevada State Route 88, eventually terminating at U.S. Route 395 (US 395). - borderline run-on sentence. Consider splitting.

• SR 88 is one of the few trans-Sierra state routes that Caltrans attempts to keep open year round. - citation needed. Also, how many routes? Consider moving link to "List of Sierra Nevada road passes" to this sentence.

• and is occasionally used as a detour when U.S. Route 50 is flooded, which relies on the canyon of the south fork of the American River for most of the ascent up the mountains. - citation needed, and sentence is borderline run-on.

Reworded the lead to (hopefully) address all 3 concerns. Regarding the concern about needing a source for a US-50 detour, a Google search yields literally dozens of news stories about such closures due to individual floods, rockslides and forest fires. I even found one that must have been a pretty dire situation, as US-50 was closed due to a rock slide, but CA-88 had trucks prohibited and chain requirements for cars, even 4WD. Sure read like Caltrans was running out of options that day. How many such stories do you think are adequate to establish the fact? Dave (talk) 02:00, 20 February 2023 (UTC) PS. Regarding the "200 miles between Carson and Walker passes" Google Maps distance measuring tool has it at 230 miles. However, as I don't know how to have a pre-formatted URL that will cause Google's distance measuring tool to produce the measurement on demand. I left it as "over 200 miles" using a paper atlas as a source. Dave (talk) 07:07, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

I think all of the points are addressed here. If there is a news story that says something like "this stretch of SR 50 is frequently closed due to flooding", then that's what I'd use. Other then that, since there are numerous instances of closures due to flooding documented by reliable sources, then this could probably be treated as WP:BLUE here. No need to cram with excessive citations. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Route description

• Consider split into two subsections.

Have not implemented this. With the recent changes from your other suggestions, it's at 4 paragraphs currently. The problem I have is 1 paragraph is San Juoquin Valley, 2 paragraphs about the Sierra Nevada (one for the foothills, one for the west side of Carson Pass) Then 1 paragraph for the part east of Carson Pass, which is mostly Sierra Nevada, but also Carson Valley. Final paragraph is general information. So I'm open to the idea, but don't see an easy or logical place to split it.

I see. I think that will do. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

• Leaving the city, and in between the small towns served by the route in the San Joaquin Valley, the route passes by several farms, vineyards and orchards, some of which have roadside stands and stores. - wording is awkward. Reword to something like "After leaving the city, the route passes by several farms...in between small towns in the San Joaquin Valley.

• Shortly after separating from a brief concurrency with SR 12 - reword to something like "the highway has a brief concurrency with SR 12".

I decided to not only re-word this but expand a bit. Better now?

Yes, that will do.

• Citation needed at the end of first paragraph.

• Between Sunnybrook and Martell, both small towns along the ascent to Jackson, the road joins with the corridor of the Amador Central Railroad, an abandoned freight rail line, purchased and operated by the Amador County Historical Society and other heritage railway enthusiasts who sponsor occasional heritage trains along the route. - cut "both small towns along the ascent to Jackson," and replace "joins with" with something like "runs adjacent to". Also, do the organizations sponsor train rides? If so, replace "trains" with this.

• Jackson is the largest town traversed in the Sierra foothills by the highway. The highway joins with State Route 49 through part of the town. - reword to something like "The route then enters Jackson, the largest town in the Sierra foothills traversed by the highway, where it ... with State Route 49 through part of the town". Also is this a concurrency with SR 49? Clarify this.

• Route 49 is heavily connected to the California Gold Rush of 1849. Many locations along SR 49, including Jackson, are a significant part of California's Gold Rush era history and have a rich gold mining history. - combine sentences and remove redundancies.

• Change "and instead pass on" to "onto".

Done

• SR 88 separates from 49 and leaves Jackson following Jackson Creek to climb to the small town of Pine Grove, where Route 88 reaches the ridge it follows to scale the western slope of the Sierra Nevada. - "SR" in front of "49", replace "Route 88" with "it", and replace "reaches the ridge it follows" with something like "begins following a ridge". Also, should "Sierra Nevada" be plural here?

Near as I can tell, the locals always use the singular 'Sierra Nevada', and using the plural is a "you're not from around here, are you?" litmus test. So I'm hesitant to change this.Dave (talk) 07:07, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

• Cut "SR 88" in final paragraph, and citation needed at the end.

Done

• From Pine Grove east, highway 88 follows a ridge that separates the watersheds of the North Fork Mokelumne River with initially the watershed of Sutter Creek, later that of the South Fork Cosumnes River, later still that of the Middle Fork Cosmunes River, and at the highest elevations with the Silver Fork of the American River. - excessive run-on sentence; needs to be extensively reworded for clarity. Also capitalize "Highway".

Agreed, I made significant changes to these sentences, please review and see if the new wording resolves your concerns.

Changes look good, except "Highway" still needs to be capitalized. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:51, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

• At several points along the ridge the route features places to pull over and view into the canyons of each of these rivers. - reword to something like "several overlooks are located along this stretch, which provide views of the river canyons below".

• Possibly combine next sentence about the county line into previous sentence.

• There are two small settlements in the higher elevations of this ridge, Cooks Station, and Ham's Station. → "Two small settlements, Cooks Station and Ham's Station, are also located in the higher elevations of this ridge"

• Both of these are today known as locations where Caltrans frequently implements restrictions during winter storms, such as requiring tire chains, restricting certain vehicles or complete closures. → "Here, Caltrans frequently implements ..." Per the lead, are complete closures rare? Citation needed at the end of this sentence.

I pondered how to source this, predicted this might come up, and am hoping you can give me some advice. The "official" source [1] is a dynamically generated page that only shows current restrictions. There are a few roadfan websites that record periodic snapshots of this information. However, neither of those are ideal. Ignoring the issue with using a fan website as a source, how many snapshots would I have to list to establish "frequently"? I searched newspaper archives with a similar outcome. I found articles about individual weather events resulting in closures at these locations, but none that explicitly said these two locations are the usual locations Caltrans uses for restrictions. Again, how many such newspaper articles would be needed to establish "frequently"? I pondered just deleting this sentence (it was there before I started editing the article). I suppose that may be what I have to do. However, I'm hesitant. The article for Ham's station was deleted and redirected to this article many years ago. This article is the only place where content about that settlement is preserved. Thoughts? Regardless thank you for offering to review the article. Dave (talk) 06:28, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Similar to the flooding closures mentioned above, I don't see why DOT source wouldn't be acceptable. Unless you could find a news source that indicates restrictions and or closures are common, this is probably the best you can do. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:35, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

• Change "The Mormon Emigrant Trail is so" to "This trail is".

• This is where this ridge effectively ends, and the road follows a dynamited path down to Kirkwood and the Kirkwood Mountain Resort. This is also near where SR 88 crosses into Alpine County. - combine sentences, specifying where county line is.

• Change "known for" to "prone to".

• What is a "view area of Red Lake" ?

• Change "are concurrent" to "run concurrent".

• Change "here SR 89 separates" to "where SR 89 separates".

• Shortly after exiting the mountains the highway reaches the Carson Valley, where the highway turns due north and becomes one of the main thoroughfares of the valley. → "Shortly after exiting the mountains, the highway reaches the Carson Valley, where it turns due north and becomes one of the main thoroughfares through the valley."

• Here SR 88 reaches the Nevada state line and becomes Nevada State Route 88. - change to something like "SR 88 then reaches the Nevada state line..."

• Citation needed at the end of final paragraph.

I have implimented your suggestions for the lead and route description. Except where noted above, I agree with your ideas and have implimented them verbatim. Thanks for the review (so far) and please advise if you have additional suggestions.Dave (talk) 07:07, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

@Moabdave: - I apologize, but I have been extremely busy lately, and haven't been able to proceed with the review as quickly as I would like. That being said, I think you've addressed most of the concerns I listed, and I will have additional comments soon. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:51, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

You have nothing to apologize for. I'm grateful for the review. Dave (talk) 07:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

• For consistency, change "State Route 49" to "SR 49".

• Is the second link of "California Gold Rush" in this paragraph overlink?

• Link "avalanches" to "avalanche, "avalanche control", and "dynamited" to "dynamite".

fixed all of the above. Dave (talk) 08:25, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• Is there any information about AADT you could include in the final paragraph?

Wow, can't believe I didn't think to add that. Shame on me ;). Done. Dave (talk) 07:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

History

• A portion of modern Route 88 (from Antelope Springs to the border) started as the Amador/Nevada Wagon Route, - personally, I'm not particularly fond of parentheses in this context, but that's just my opinion. I'd rewrite it as something like "A portion of the route that is now SR 88, located between Antelope Springs and the Nevada Border, started as the Amador/Nevada Wagon Route".

Agreed. I had to reword anyways as Antelope springs did not appear on any of the maps I have at my disposal (though Antelope creek does)

• a significant part of this toll road was funding a realignment of the portion from Tragedy Spring to Caples Lake - does this mean that a significant share of the tolls were used to fund the realignment? Also, if so, is this what the following two sentences refer to?

Yes. Hopefully the current wording is better.

• The highways in the area were re-aligned to their modern designations, including the 88 designation, by the time the predecessor agency to what is now called Caltrans announced significant improvements to the road had just been, or soon would be, completed in 1958. - When were these realignments and announcement made, and what was the name of the predecessor agency to Caltrans? Also, change first part to something like "the highways in the area, including the SR 88 designation, were re-aligned to their modern routings by <date>, when ...". Sentence wording is awkward.

I tried a couple of ways to word this. Please advise if the current wording works. At Issue is I was unable to find an exact date when the SR-8 designation was retired and the 88 designation was christened. The source used for this paragraph implies the re-designation was done in anticipation of these improvements and the new alignment in the foothills. However, it does not explicitly state that. So I'm trying to be clear enough to state what is known, but vague enough to not infer a date for the designation change that isn't supported by the source. Dave (talk) 07:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I think the current wording is adequate. Even if you can't find a report or news source that says when the SR 88 designation was implemented, you could probably just use the first state map where it appears. Bneu2013 (talk) 15:34, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I did find a couple of 1940s era maps that show the 88 designation where the current route exists, and the route 8 designation in the parts where modern 88 does not yet exist. So apparently it wasn't just a clean switchover. I'm hesitant to word this in the article, as without more info available, it would have to be written with weasel words. But I might play with something. What I'd really like is a year by year archive of what changed, as both Nevada and Utah provide on the DOT's websites. But sigh, it is what it is. I think this is the last issue you brought up. Is there any other deficiency in the article that you can see?Dave (talk) 17:02, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

No, that's all. The last thing I need to do is take a look at the references, route description, images, and run the Earwig test. Bneu2013 (talk) 20:03, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• These improvements included a re-alignment of the eastern approach to Carson Pass to reduce the grade by passing Red Lake to the north rather than along the southern shore, paving a new route west from Martell and re-alignments along parts of the ridge, including a new alignment around an area called Peddler's Hill. - Run-on sentence. Also, did these improvements meet the projected 1958 completion date?

reworded. The source used only says expected to be completed shortly, so I can't give an exact date for completion. Dave (talk) 08:36, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• The highway was not originally maintained in the winter, but became the latest trans-Sierra Nevada highway to remain open year round in 1971. - does this mean that the highway has remained open year round since 1971? Also, I would change "latest" to something like "most recent".

• In final sentence, change hyphens to commas. Also, when did this expansion take place.

Implemented all your suggestions to this point. Dave (talk) 07:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

@Moabdave: - I have posted my final comments. Once those are addressed, the article should be good to go. Bneu2013 (talk) 20:26, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Major intersections

• No major issues in this section.

References

• For citation 1, remove direct link to Wayback snapshot in | and replace with original url. Move archive url to the |archiveurl= parameter, and include |url-status=dead and |archiveurl= parameters.

Good catch. I made a syntax error that prevented the template code from displaying the right URL. Fixed.

• Citation 27 link is dead.

also good catch. updated URL

• For citations 1, 12, 15, 18, and 46, it wouldn't hurt if you could find the missing access dates.

Fixed. For some of these the dates were there, but not displaying due to syntax errors.

I think that's everything. Please advise if you have more concerns and thank you for your time to review the articleDave (talk) 23:10, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• • • I don't see anything else. Will be passing. Bneu2013 (talk)