Talk:Camel urine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Content or information is fake.

The content is fake and there is no existence of the information provided. I cannot found any reference and proof of information given. This is defamation of religion and should be remove immediately. Zeeshandongre (talk) 10:42, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

The "D" of WP:BRD

It is time to discuss. I have reverted, twice, a series of terrible edits, with this edit. DO NOT REPLACE that nonsense unless a clear approval has been agreed here. Thanks. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 10:36, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Camel urine in 2020

I open the discussion with the following points:

1. 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic

2. Current article lead > "Camel urine has been used in the Arabian Peninsula for medicinal and religious purposes for centuries, being a part of Islamic prophetic medicine."

3. Camel urine has been linked to Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS).

4. MERs is a Corona virus. It is also known as, 'Camel flu'. And specifically termed as, 'MERS-CoV'.

5. Following MERs, the WHO has said, not to drink camel urine.

6. Camel urine is drunk in many countries. Camel urine drinking is being promoted / advocated by "the world's most popular website on the topic of Islam", by an "Indian Islamic televangelist and Islamic preacher" who claims, "22 million followers worldwide" and at least one university. (And yes, I know there are intriguing RS issues to resolve here).

7. Muhammad, "ordered them to go to the herd of (Milch) camels and to drink their milk and urine (as a medicine). So they went as directed and after they became healthy".[1]

8. I note this 'Camel urine' article is within the scope of three WikiProjects.

I propose to update 'Camel urine' in Stages. I will await the conclusion of each Stage of collaborative Wiki editing before I move to the next Stage. I will initially use an abbreviated form of Wiki citation-template WP:CT, which will be replaced with the full citation format at the conclusion of the work. I propose to add Camel urine to Prophetic medicine and Urine therapy. Is it appropriate to proceed on that basis? Koreangauteng (talk) 00:30, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Why didn't you respond in the section I opened for you above? -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 11:34, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

I was asked that I, "should DISCUSS".[2]

Refer discussion above.

While awaiting a response / "clear approval agreed here", I will commence by progressively editing, as per above, "Prophetic medicine and Urine therapy". Koreangauteng (talk) 04:14, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Dont do that. Get consensus for any changes you wish to make. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 06:43, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Roxy the dog > What do you recommend (beyond "get consensus") to progress these three articles ? Koreangauteng (talk) 11:37, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

I would consider it progress if you stopped editing them. Also, stop pinging me. thanks. -Roxy, the PROD. . wooF 12:43, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. Koreangauteng (talk) 19:27, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Propose working incrementally / progressively on the three above articles. Koreangauteng (talk) 19:28, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

• Koreangauteng, why do you always try to add poorly sourced materials and original research to articles? The way you do that in many articles suggests POV-pushing. You also editwar most of the time. Anyways, the content that you added seems to be undue because there is no secondary sources that reports these. Those are primary sources interpreted by your own editorial interpretation.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:33, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Also regarding this [3]. This has lots of synthesis, WP:TOPIC issues. Also, using sources like daily mail, juxtaposing and lots of things don't even make sense. The issue is that you are editwarring with these stuff.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:38, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

In this version that you were editwarring with, you added this section:

United Arab Emirates
He said the camel antibodies, by being transported from the desert sands into the laboratory test tube, had the potential to be a vital weapon against human diseases Mohammed Mohammed.[31]

What the heck does this even mean?--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Also, in the other countries sections that you added, there doesn't seem to be sources that prove that there is actual usage in these countries. Except in Yemen and Saudi Arabia. As someone who is Arab, from Yemen and I drank it many times, I know that the usage is mainly in Yemen and some parts of Saudi Arabia. Never heard that they use it in Iran.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

______________________________

I make the following points:

1. 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic

2. I have always explained in detail (see above and in Edit summaries) what I was proposing. The responses (see above) were not particularly instructive.

3. I proposed to add to Camel urine:

Camel urine drinking is advocated by Salafi sources, "the world's most popular website on the topic of Islam", and by an "Islamic preacher" who claims, "22 million followers worldwide".

4. For the above edit, I explained in the Edit summary:

While IslamQA and Zakir Naik may not be RSs for medical information, (Help:Find medical sources) they are RS (well qualified with Wikipedia:Notability) for the subject of Prophetic medicine. IslamQA provides "the Salafi school's interpretation of the Quran and Hadith". Zakir Naik is "perhaps the most influential Salafi ideologue in India".

5. The above edit was deleted and I was threatened that I, "may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you vandalize Wikipedia".

6. Koreangauteng > "You have been spreading rumours and making false comments on the Internet"

[[:File:李文亮的训诫书.png|thumb|The letter of admonition issued by the Wuhan Police Bureau (translation) ordering Li to stop "spreading rumors" about "SARS", signed by Li and two officers. Li uploaded it to his Sina Weibo account.]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koreangauteng (talk • contribs)

References

What's that point number 6?

You need to have secondary sources for these to prove that these comments are notable.

None of what you added about countries prove that there is actual usage.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 01:13, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

The Zakir Naik source is from facebook, the hadith a primary source and even as original research it seems to be about the execution of bandits and Islamqa is not a RS, blogsite popularity notwithstanding.

I'm not an expert but the current Corona pandemic seems unrelated to this specific type of syndrome which in turn is not necessarily related to camel urine alone. It's exact transmission is unknown. Proximity or consuming flesh (as in the case of one theory about the origin of the current pandemic) seems to be enough and many sources don't even mention Camel urine [4][5]. It's also irrelevant as Wikipedia is not a medical advocacy site. Comparing yourself to Li Wenliang and implying opposing editors are Chinese government authorities is simply bizarre.119.152.136.93 (talk) 03:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

@SharabSalam: , @Roxy the dog: , Poor edits related to this issue are still being made (although not on this page directly) as in the case here [[6]]. The same criticism applied to edits here applies there as well. The edits are based on original research and synthesis while often not being on topic as well (for example as mentioned in the edit summary none of the sources discuss prophetic medicine or the hadith and the final citation even mischaracterizes the authors views) Is it justified to revert them as in the case here? 39.37.170.148 (talk) 08:32, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

This is an Encyclopedia not newspaper

Adding in the usage section that a person from "X country" drunk camel urine is not the content of an encyclopedia. It is WP:RECENT and suggest that people from that country regularly drink camel urine. An example to illustrate the problem would be to add in Dog urine that "In the U.S. a woman drunk dog urine as a cure for acne"[7]--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:10, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Koreangauteng, why are you editwarring? Why did you remove what the WHO said "Until more is understood about MERS-CoV, people with diabetes, renal failure, chronic lung disease, and immunocompromised persons are considered to be at high risk of severe disease from MERS-CoV infection. These people should avoid contact with camels, drinking raw camel milk or camel urine, or eating meat that has not been properly cooked."(emphasis is mine) Why didn't you respond here about adding instance of WP:RECENTISM to the article

Are you interested in building consensus process and building a NPOV project or are you interested in implementing your preferred version through editwarring?--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 22:28, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, you said "chairman of prophetic medicine"??? There is no such thing in reality! The guy is a random fake healer and he was arrested few days after he made that claim!![8]. You have said you want to not allow misinformation but yet what you said is misinformation. That of course, and you also said that the WHO said that camel urine is linked to the MERS, implying that the camel urine is the source of the MERS-Cov which is totally incorrect and misinformation.-SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 23:18, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Ms96 see this discussion. -SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:38, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Notice that we don't include this in Cow urine article.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:44, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam Multiple users are having problems with you on this. This issue is widely covered by media (RS), and absolutely prominent. I do not see this a matter of debate, and ask for a WP:3O. Also, beware since you have already exceedingly reverted sourced edits by multiple users on this page. You pick the person for 3O, from Admins.MS 会話 17:50, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Ms96, the WP:ONUS is on those who seek inclusion to have consensus. No one other than you has made a comment here about this issue.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 17:52, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam Someone else added that material before being reverted by you: [9]. I do not want to continue this discussion with you because I believe the way you try to push your ideas could not be solved by any sort of logical debate. Simply go for WP:3O from an active Admin. MS 会話 18:00, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

I have started a RfC.. your accusation hurt my feelings. You didn't make any objective argument. You started talking about reverts, users etc etc without addressing the content. This is a recently added content. See WP:QUO and WP:BRD. This content should not be included when there is a legit objection based on policies and guidelines as well as manual of style like WP:RECENTISM, WP:DISPROPORTIONATE and WP:NOTNEWS. This is an encyclopedia not a newspaper.-SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:11, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

RfC

Should this be included in the article? --SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Amid COVID-19 pandemic in Iran, the chairman of prophetic medicine society claimed that it could cure COVID-19 and protect against Tehran air pollution in a video showing him drinking a glass of fresh camel urine.

References

--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Survey

• No it is undue and WP:RECENT to include this incident in an article about camel urine, see WP:DISPROPORTIONATE. The person was arrested later and he is a fake healer.[10] Also, mentioning this one person-involved or organisation incident in this article about "camel urine" in general would imply as if all Iranians use camel urine. That of course, and half of the sources that are used are not reliable. I don't see any reports in mainstream media.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 18:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• COMMENT:I didn't want to make it personal by any means or "talk about the contributor", but I asked this user for WP:3O after reverting edits regarding the issue by me and User:Koreangauteng in Talk:Camel_urine#This is an Encyclopedia not newspaper. Then he reminded me of WP:ONUS, WP:QUO, WP:BRD, WP:RECENTISM, WP:DISPROPORTIONATE and WP:NOTNEWS (WP:WTF) and started this RfC instead, presumably to lengthen the simple process of adding a single well sourced material; so that everybody would forget the issue in a couple of weeks and he "wins" (though i personally see no similarities between Wiki and Marathon). I'm claiming this based on the user's history of "Attrition warfare" (WP:BATTLEGROUND; I can proceed and prove if necessary) in all articles somehow related to Islam, Iran, or Yemen, especially a similar case which I had with him on Talk:Qasem Soleimani. One note worthy edit of this user: [11]. I go for the 3O myself User:Vanamonde93. MS 会話 18:42, 6 May 2020 (UTC)
• :SharabSalam is topic-banned from Iranian politics, and the activities of a high-ranking government official are covered by that ban. As such SharabSalam ought not to be looking into this question at all. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:03, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

  Vanamonde93, who is the high-ranking official you are talking about? Read carefully what this topic is about. This is about Islam-related topic, it has nothing to do with politics in Iran.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 19:25, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

  You're right, I did misread; I got the impression this was a government body. As such this is not a TBAN violation, and you may continue to participate. Please note, though, that religion and politics are not necessarily separate issues, and content you perceive to be about religion may in fact be covered by your sanction. As such the rest of my advice still stands. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:53, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

• No - that seems just an example of confidence in it as a remedy, already noted, not a separate item to get additional mention. You might try offering it to Misinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic and see if that article wants to note examples of home remedies advice. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 23:39, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
• No, this information is not WP:DUE. If drinking camel urine developed into a widespread or long-lasting folk remedy (for anything), then it might be included some day. But until we read that a million people tried this, or that people kept doing this for multiple years, then it amounts to 'somebody said something once'. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:46, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
• No, per DUE, and likely being medically unsound. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 01:11, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

In Yemen "It is traditionally mixed with milk"

I know why it is "traditionally mixed with milk". We have large farms in our village and sometimes in a year (especially in the winter), lots of camel shepherds come to our farms. We let their camels eat from our farms for free. They stay in our farms for three days, during this time they give us free -sometimes not free- camel milk. I watched how the camel shepherd was milking the camel, he added camel urine to the milk. I asked him why, he said its because the camel urinates while it is being milked, and he can't avoid mixing the camel urine with milk. I didnt believe what he said. I asked some old people why he did that, and they told me because camel become crazy if their milk wasnt mixed with urine. I think this is because camel shepherds believe in evil eyes, and they try to stop the curse of evil eyes by adding urine.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 20:45, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Drinking camel urine in 2020

I accept when two Wiki editors - one who has drunk camel urine, "many times" and one who has never drunk camel urine - may have differing views on the:

1 scope of a Wiki article on Camel urine

and the

2 understanding of the latest WHO recommendations on the subject:

MERS-CoV appears to cause more severe disease in people with diabetes, renal failure, chronic lung disease, and immunocompromised persons. Therefore, these people should avoid close contact with animals, particularly dromedaries, when visiting farms, markets, or barn areas where the virus is known to be potentially circulating. General hygiene measures, such as regular hand washing before and after touching animals and avoiding contact with sick animals, should be adhered to.

Food hygiene practices should be observed. People should avoid drinking raw camel milk or camel urine or eating meat that has not been properly cooked. WHO 12 March 2020

BTW1. There are many influential Islamic promoters of camel urine drinking, including:

1 "the world's most popular website on the topic of Islam": https://islamqa.info/ar/answers/83423/%D9%81%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%89%D8%AF-%D8%B4%D8%B1%D8%A8-%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A7%D8%A8%D9%84

2 an Islamic preacher claiming "22 million followers worldwide": https://www.facebook.com/zakirnaik/posts/camel-urine-as-treatmentthere-are-several-scientific-proofs-in-the-past-as-well-/1016155178547328/

- and if you wish to dismiss these sources, please explain why these are not RS for the promotion of Islamic prophetic medicine. Further - It has been suggested that references to Camel urine as (prophetic) medicine might be, "Non WP:MEDRS for medical claim". (interesting issue here).

BTW2. MERS is "also known as camel flu".

Koreangauteng (talk) 02:17, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

​Why did you create a new section? And why did you start with being personal? Comment on the content, not the contributor. This is your last warning. I still remember your COI claim. Thanks.

Here what sources are saying.

"people with diabetes, renal failure, chronic lung disease, and immunocompromised persons are considered to be at high risk of severe disease from MERS-CoV infection. These people should avoid contact with camels, drinking raw camel milk or camel urine, or eating meat that has not been properly cooked.

"MERS-CoV appears to cause more severe disease in people with diabetes, renal failure, chronic lung disease, and immunocompromised persons. Therefore, these people should avoid close contact with animals, particularly dromedaries, when visiting farms, markets, or barn areas where the virus is known to be potentially circulating. General hygiene measures, such as regular hand washing before and after touching animals and avoiding contact with sick animals, should be adhered to.

Your wording "It has been linked with Middle East respiratory syndrome." Is totally unsourced misinformation. There is no direct link with the camel urine itself and the MERS.

Also, the reliability of a source is not based on the amount of visitors. It's ridiculous to say so. The reliability of the source is based on the reliability of the author and that author is in a Saudi who is in prison for alleged support for terrorism. Also, it is a primary source that you are analyzing without any secondary source. You have to get secondary sources to report what that author said.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 02:32, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, the note at the end is so irrelevant and has no point at all, "BTW2. MERS is "also known as camel flu"" so what? What's your point? It originated from bats. It's not only in camels. Ironically, countries that has no or few camels are the most affected countries from coronaviruses. I would also remind you that "Spanish flu" didn't originate from Spain.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 02:47, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Also, it is not a urinary system disease, it's a respiratory disease. Camel urine is less likely to spread a coronavirus than the camel milk, since it causes respiratory infections and it is said that it is transmitted through respiratory droplets aannndd the camel would only have milk if it has babies, that means the baby might be infected which would make him leave some of his respiratory droplets on the mother breast. That would make it more likely to get infected from the milk not the urine.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 02:59, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

SharabSalam you quoted (above, and in the article) WHO as of 11 March 2019

WHO recommendations as of 12 March 2020 currently are:

"MERS-CoV appears to cause more severe disease in people with diabetes, renal failure, chronic lung disease, and immunocompromised persons. Therefore, these people should avoid close contact with animals, particularly dromedaries, when visiting farms, markets, or barn areas where the virus is known to be potentially circulating. General hygiene measures, such as regular hand washing before and after touching animals and avoiding contact with sick animals, should be adhered to.

Food hygiene practices should be observed. People should avoid drinking raw camel milk or camel urine or eating meat that has not been properly cooked. WHO as of 12 March 2020

Koreangauteng (talk) 03:13, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Koreangauteng, so the difference is one year? They said "Therefore, these people should avoid close contact with animals, particularly dromedaries". Also, lets remember that this is from their news section not real documents. Their document talks about people who have health issues.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 03:59, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

I also want to note this study that says, No viral RNA was detected in fecal samples or in urine samples collected by convenience or at necropsy at 0, 1, 5, 14, 21, 28, and 42 dpi from the 3 camels. No infectious virus or viral RNA was detected in any of the serum or whole blood samples.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 04:07, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Time will tell. From the WHO document you quote WHO

"Camels infected with MERS-CoV may not show any signs of infection. It is therefore not possible to know whether an animal in a farm, market, race track or slaughterhouse is excreting MERS-CoV that can potentially infect humans. However, infected animals may shed MERS-CoV through nasal and eye discharge, faeces, and potentially in their milk and urine".

Koreangauteng (talk) 05:02, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

"Potentially" doesnt say they know it is from urine. I have added a solid study based on trials and has been cited in multiple academic papers that there is no evidence of virus transmission through urine.--SharʿabSalam▼ (talk) 05:41, 5 May 2020 (UTC)