Talk:Campbell pogrom

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Campbell pogrom/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: UndercoverClassicist (talk · contribs) 10:16, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Buidhe (talk · contribs) 00:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

I'll work on this, further comments forthcoming but I do have one suggestion for improvement: I believe it says somewhere in this book that exaggerations about the pogrom in the foreign jewish press fueled disbelief about the holocaust when it occurred, perhaps more info on this could be added to the article. You can access the source via TWL (t · c) buidhe 00:47, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh, good spot -- will certainly have a look through it. Looking forward to working with you on this one. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The article refers to "Greece's Ionian territories" and "Christian Ionian refugees". Although I'm not sure exactly what the source says I would have probably written "loss of the Greco–Turkish War" and "Asia Minor refugees"—how I have seen them mentioned, as they were from various parts of present-day Turkey (including some from Eastern Thrace). Our article on the subject is Greek refugees (t · c) buidhe 14:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

This is useful -- I struggled when writing the article to find the best terminology for the two groups. Many sources talked about "Jews" versus "Greeks", which I didn't want to perpetuate: after all, the allegation that Jews were somehow alien to or less attached to the Greek nation was itself an antisemitic stereotype and a contributing factor to the violence against them. Any thoughts here? I think it's important to be clear that the refugees (at least the ones we're interested in) considered themselves both ethno-linguistically Greek and religiously Christian. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 14:17, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Many sources talked about "Jews" versus "Greeks", which I didn't want to perpetuate I noticed that and agree—some sources I found on the Holocaust deliberately contrast "Jewish" vs "Christian" for this reason. But saying Greek refugees from Anatolia or Asia Minor refugees isn't ambiguous. Although it's salient that all were Christian , for the same reason there weren't Jewish refugees from the Turkish territories of the Ottoman Empire that ended up in Greece. Interestingly, I read that many had no knowledge of the Greek language when they arrived, and some communities were still speaking Turkish decades later. (t · c) buidhe 01:27, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

That is interesting (I don't suppose you have the source to hand?). I must admit I still have a small worry about "Asia Minor" or "Anatolia" as a full description, if we're trying to include those from Thrace, which is in neither. Just from looking at a map, it looks as though "Ionia and Eastern Thrace" is accurate. I've made a few changes here: when talking about the territories, as a whole, that Greece lost, it's "Ionia and Eastern Thrace", otherwise I've gone back to the sources and stuck scrupulously to whether they've said "refugees" (in general) or specifically those from Asia Minor (as many do). How does it look now? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 07:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The problem is that the refugees didn't just come from the territory that Greece claimed after World War I but also other parts of what is now Turkey (including the Black Sea coast/Pontus, Cappadocia, etc.). Because the Greek control over parts of Anatolia was so short-lived, I think it is potentially more informative for readers to get the context of the war rather than maybe ending up with the impression that these territories had been controlled by Greece for an extended period of time. Given that the departure of the Greeks actually started long before the Greek government asserted territorial claims (1914 Greek deportations), so the essential factor isn't loss of control over territory Greece claimed but rather the conflict between Greece and Turkey.

For the other question, one of the chapters in the holocaust in Greece book is about a village that was still speaking Turkish into the 1940s. (t · c) buidhe 14:21, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

OK -- I've added a bit to the paragraph on Greek refugees, which should make clearer that there's a broader context here, but also that the loss of Ionia (and particularly the burning of Smyrna, though I don't go into that here) intensified a trend that had already began at a smaller scale. I didn't end up adding the material on the Turkish-speaking villages, though it's extremely interesting, because the source doesn't explicitly say that any of these Turkish-speaking communities ended up in Thessaloniki, and so it would be a bit SYNTHy to say something like "many of the refugees did not speak Greek" when implicitly talking about those in the city. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 19:44, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

UndercoverClassicist, I have one question regarding the lead section. The final sentence states that The city's Jewish community remained substantially alienated and weakened until the imposition of a military dictatorship under Ioannis Metaxas in 1936.

I believe that the term "military dictatorship" is not the correct one when it comes to describing the 4th of August regime. It was a dictatorship with a personality cult akin to those of fascist leaders in other European countries at the time, but it was also heavily reliant on the support which Metaxas personally received from the -then King of Greece- Georgios B.

It would be more accurate if we wrote instead that: The city's Jewish community remained substantially alienated and weakened until the imposition of a dictatorship under Ioannis Metaxas in 1936. Popular Punk (talk) 17:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Hello: plenty of sources do call the 4th of August regime a "military dictatorship", but not all do. I don't see a major problem with cutting that down to "dictatorship", so have done so. UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 18:54, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. The sources that i have (greek ones, mostly) simply call it "Metaxas Dictatorship" or 4th of August regime. Popular Punk (talk) 19:00, 7 October 2024 (UTC)