Talk:Canadian (canoe)

"A Canadian is a mostly open canoe that is driven sitting or kneeling and moved with a paddle. It was originally used by the North American Indians as a means of transportation in the densely forested and impassable areas of North America, [...]."

The Indigenous peoples of the Americas didn't originally use Canadian canoes, as they used their dugout and birch bark canoes long before a northern part of America was called Canada...
Also canoes where used all over the world, not only in North-America.

The current touring, whitewater and racing canoes are indeed more or less descendants of the birch bark (touring) canoe of indigenous peoples of North America. In some countries these canoes are called 'Canadians' because in these countries a kayak is seen as a canoe.
As already written, naming a canoe a Canadian has been the cause of a lot of serious confusion, like kayakers who call themself canoe-instructors while they are hardly or not being able to paddle a canoe themselves, let alone being able to teach others using one well...
Also women were not allowed to canoe on the Olympics because a kayak is a canoe... Et cetera.

"Canadians and kayaks are the two main sub-groups of canoes."

Kayaks can justifiably seen as a sub-group of canoes, which are confusingly called 'Canadian canoes' in some countries. When a canoe will be called a kayak depends on interpretation or is arbitrarily determined in competition sport rules. In general though a kayak is a more or less decked canoe meant to be paddled with a double-bladed paddle from a low seated position.

Except for the wooden 'Canadian Style' canoe, also known as the 'Peterborough' type, I cannot think of any definition that technically, historically and geographically is correct enough to justify the use of the byname 'Canadian' for canoes in formal use such as education, instruction, regulation and sport games.

In my view the subject Canadian canoe on Wikipedia is (or was!) meant to provide an answer to questions like:

• What is meant with the term 'Canadian canoe'?
• Why is this byname used.
• Why is a kayak (still) called a canoe in some countries?

Kanoniem (talk) 14:21, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kanoniem: I agree with you.--Kasper2006 (talk) 04:09, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because there are two types of canoes (boat), the kayak and the canadian in fact. The canadian entry is present in other Wikipedia around the world. The K1 and K2 (kayak) and C1 and C2 (canadian) competitions have always been held at the world championships of the sport of canoeing and at the Olympics. --Kasper2006 (talk) 03:35, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the deletion of the Wikipedia page with the subject Canadian canoe was a bit like deleting the Flat_Earth page because the earth isn't flat but more tri-axial ellipsoid shaped...
Also the deletion of this page has consequences for other pages on Wikipeda that still refer to Canadian canoe in some way or another (in English or other language), which leaves people clueless to this subject now (if only for historical interest).
Possibly a better solution then would have been to create of a disambiguation page like this:

'Canadian Canoe' may refer to:

• canoe from Canada
• touring, whitewater and racing canoe in the United Kingdom and several other countries.

However I still prefer a seperate page about the use of the byname Canadian canoe that is comparable with the use of the byname Pingpong for Table tennis but not suitable for merging into Canoe as it is a long story and complicated matter.
However, it should not contain much more than an explanation about why some kind of canoes are still called 'Canadian canoe' in some countries. As anything more would be a duplication of what is already written on the page Canoe and would only add to the confusion, like people calling a birch bark or dugout canoe a 'canadian' and talk about things like a "canadian paddler, decked canadian, sea canadian, freestyle canadian, whitewater canadian, canadian canadian, Inuit canadian, canadian instructor, canadian tour", et cetera.
It should be made clear that 'Canadian' is not a sub-group of canoes but just a byname used for (some) canoes in some countries, as it is quite impossible to define what makes a 'Canadian' canoe different from other canoes. -- Kanoniem (talk) 07:21, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

C

The designation 'C' for Canoe is used in competition for an open or decked Canoe with a number for the number of persons reguired to (successfully) propel the vessel, not the number of seats: Sprint canoes do not have seats...

Also we have two kinds of C4 in Flatwater racing: an ICF C4 and a Canadian C4 (which is wider than the ICF C4).

The designation 'OC' for Open Canoe is (only) used when differentiation is required: when only open canoes are used, like in Flatwater Sprint racing, plain 'C' suffices. When open and decked canoes are used like in whitewater paddling, 'OC' and 'C' are used respectively.

OC1

C1

A C1 therefore is an open canoe in Flatwater and a decked canoe in Wildwater and Whitewater Slalom competition.

Kanoniem (talk) 07:32, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

In a word. In the sport of canoeing, K = kayak and C = canadian. --Kasper2006 (talk) 11:42, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Eh, no, as illustrated with the difference between a Canadian C(anoe)4 and an ICF C(anoe)4. As these boats are not a 'Canadian Canadian 4' and an 'ICF Canadian 4'...
Formally (with the ICF and so) the C = Canoe and K = Kayak nowadays.
In parlance and informal use this may be otherwise, but this is confusing also because other languages have different names for canoes and kayaks:
Kanu and Kajak in Germany (with 'Kanadier' for a person from Canada and Canadier for Canadian canoe...)
Kano en Kajak in the Netherlands with Canadees for Canadian.

We have Canoes with sub-groups for disciplines like:
touring, whitewater, wildwater, slalom, sprint, marathon, freestyle, FreeStyle, sailing, et cetera.
Or special use like for example:
an Umiak, Dragon boat and Outrigger_boat

We have Kayaks with sub-groups for disciplines like:
touring, whitewater, wildwater, slalom, sprint, marathon, freestyle, sailing, et cetera.

Kayaks could justly be seen as sub-group of Canoes, as illustrated with a vessel like the Baidarka that was also paddled kneeling with single bladed paddles but even so is classified as kayak and not a decked canoe.
So when a canoe will be called a kayak depends on interpretation or is arbitrarily determined in competition sport rules.
These complications are however not a reason to call a Canoe a canadian in formal use, as that will only confuse matters more than they already are. Except for the wooden 'Canadian Style' canoe, also known as the 'Peterborough' type, I cannot think of any definition that technically, historically and geographically is correct enough to justify the use of the byname 'Canadian' as a sub-group of canoes in formal use such as education, instruction, regulation and sport games. Kanoniem (talk) 12:01, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

"In the sport of canoeing there are two types of canoe, the open one, operated by a single paddle and known as Canadian or C-boat, and the closed one, with a double paddle, known as kayak or K-boat."

In the sport of canoeing we not only have open canoes but also decked canoes, which are closed like kayaks but paddled kneeling with a single bladed paddle.

Open C1

Decked C1

And we have decked 'canoes' that are paddled with a double bladed paddle from a low seated position which are called kayaks. Kanoniem (talk) 12:26, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but do something, it's not that you can erase everything I wrote. By the way, my notes and other things were closer to the guidelines, yours were not. --Kasper2006 (talk) 11:07, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I have only corrected the mistakes you made (^ please do read my explanations about that above ^) and tried to make a consisted page of this subject without making it a duplication of the Canoe page which happened before -- otherwise this page will probably be deleted again... Kanoniem (talk) 13:13, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

I read and it suits me Only that maybe you could correct and expand the sections that I had put (note to the American Indians, sport of canoeing with two beautiful images side by side), instead of deleting everything. --Kasper2006 (talk) 14:51, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Problem is that the Sports of Canoeing are already covered elsewhere on Wikipedia, and should be edited there if you want to. Here only information directly related with the subject 'Canadian canoe' should be covered, with pictures that try to illustrate what is written. Kanoniem (talk) 18:42, 10 April 2020 (UTC)