Talk:Candleston Castle
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Rewrite and restructure these sections
editEdited section - strike out through info remaining in the article
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==Encroachment of sands== (renamed Geography and more geographical info inserted)
==Function==
==Structural description==
==Merthyr Mawr lordship==
Done - thanks! ==Nomenclature of the castle== The castle and manor took the name of its
===Heiresses of Hopkin ap Howel Ychan of Tythegstone=== Edits also by Hchc2009:
===Cantilupe of Glamorgan== Edits also by Hchc2009:
--thanks! |
Comments appreciated.--CaroleHenson (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I've trimmed a bit more back; given that this is a history of the castle, the long preambles prior to its construction feel like undue weight, and aren't supported by secondary sources on the castle. I'd recommend that we restructure a bit more, to ensure that the castle history flows sequentially. At the moment it starts in the 14th century, jumps through to the 19th, then recycles back again, which seems odd. Shouldn't be hard to do if others agree. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yep, thanks! I saw that.
- Will do!--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
References
- ^ Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, vol 3, pt. 1b: The Later Castles, p.408.
Close paraphrasing...
editLooking at "An Inventory of the Ancient Monuments in Glamorgan, Volume 3", I think we may have some copyvio and close paraphrasing problems in the article. e.g.
- "In the 12th century, Candleston was a mesne manor within the fee of Merthyr Mawr, which was acquired by the St. Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan but it is unclear when they sub-enfeoffed Candleston."
- "Candleston was a mesne manor within the fee of Merthr Mawr, which was acquired by the St. Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan..."
From an initial once-over, the problems look like they persist elsewhere when this source is being used. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- To help look at this, I've cut and pasted a direct quote:
Candleston was a mense manor within the fee of Merthyr Mawr, which was acquired by the St Quintin lords of Llanbleddian and Talyfan (I.M. 7 and 19) in the 12th century. It is uncertain when the St Quintins sub-enfeoffed Candleston, but there is no doubt that their original tenants there were the Cantilupe family.
- How about:
- In the 12th century, Candleston manor passed to the St Quintin lords of Talyfan and Llanbleddian; The Cantilupe family are considered Candleston's first tenants.
- How about:
- I'll take a look at the rest of the content.--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:29, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
CP 2
editThis: "the name Candleston is derived from their name, variously spelled Cantulupo, Cantilupo, Cantelo. In 1596 it was called Cantelowstowne and in 1635 Cantloston." I think falls into the point from the close paraphrasing article that there are some times not too many ways to paraphrase. I switched the order of the spelling of the latin names and switched the order of the names and years in the next sentence. Sometimes, there are not a lot of CP options; If I reorder the next sentence it gets out of chronological order.
Any suggestions, though, to help me out would be much appreciated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 19:35, 12 July 2013 (UTC) But I would love some suggestions on this one
Heiresses of Hopkin ap Howel Ychan of Tythegstone
editThis is interesting information, but I'm unable to find a source for this. The text mentions the book name, but does not have complete citation information.
- Lewis Nicholl, whose family owned Candleston in the 20th century, researched the descent of the manor in his book The Normans in Glamorgan. He mentions the nine daughters of Hopkin,<ref>Hopkin may have come from Brecon or possibly descended from Griffith Gwyr or Gower poss. lords of Penrhos Castle</ref> who all married within Glamorgan, as being joint heiresses of the Cantilupe's of Candleston. It appears Hopkin's father Howel had married a daughter and heiress of "Sir William Cantilupe". Six of these daughters included Katherine,[citation needed] Maud,<ref name="Burke">{{cite book|author=Bernard Burke|title=The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, Comprising a Registry of Armorial Bearings from the Earliest to the Present Time, Volume 3 |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=X8UujEDqn9oC&pg=PA1037|accessdate=12 July 2013|publisher=Heritage Books|isbn=978-0-7884-3721-2|page=1037}}</ref> Gladys, Wenbllian, Joan and Elizabeth. Nicholl states that The Denys family at one time held a share of Candleston, whether via Joan le Eyre or Joan daughter of Hopkin is uncertain.
Does anyone have source info that ties Hopkin ap Howel, Howel or William Cantilupe's daughter to Candleston?--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:57, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Sir Richard Herbert
editSir Richard Herbert was said to have inherited Candleston, but he died 21 years before his father-in-law, Mathew Cradock, if the 1531 date is correct. This is confusing to me. The dates also look to be too close. If Mathew Cradock was born about 1468 - and daughter's first child was born in 1501, that means he would have been a grandfather at about 33 years of age.
By the way, I wrote the Sir Richard Herbert article - one of my early articles before I knew better than to include "Sir" in the name of the article. Anyway, I've spot-checked sources and the sources seem to confirm that Sir Richard Herbert (d. 1510) was the son-in-law of Mathew Cradock, and the dates of death seem to be correct for both men, but I feel like I might be missing something.
Any comments or ideas would be much appreciated!--CaroleHenson (talk) 22:45, 12 July 2013 (UTC)