Talk:Capture of Gagron (1444)

The capture of forts

@Rawn3012, Upendra Nath Day states in his book "Medieval Malwa: A Political and Cultural History, 1401-1562" that The fall of Gagraun was a signal for the fall of smaller forts round about the region and, 'as Shihab Hakim says, people from twenty-four forts evacuated them In great panic and all these forts passed into the hands of Sultan Mahmud. So, do not remove cited information as it is not comfortable for personal views. Imperial^[AFCND] 06:11, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I hope you would make a self revert after seeing this. Imperial^[AFCND] 06:13, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Firstly, No major historian says anything about capture of Gagraun anf if they says, they clearly mention that Kumbha reconquerred his lost territories Rawn3012 (talk) 06:38, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Satish Chandra in Medival India from 1206 to 1526

"The Conflict with Sultans of Gujarat and Malwa occupied Kumbha throughout his life. During most of the time he had to contend with Rathors of Marwar too.Although sorely poccesd he was able to maintain his kingdom back. Kumbhalgarh was besiged sevral times by Sultan of Gujarat and Sultan of Malwa was able to raid as far as inland in Ajmer and other boder areas but Rana was able to repulse those attacks and retain most of his conquests exept Ranthambore' outlying areas"

R.C Majumdar in Textbook of A history and culture of Indian People volume 6 says

"" Mahmud failed to conquer any part of the Maharana’s territory except Ranthambore as all the areas previsioly conquered by Malwa were retaken by Kumbha. As noted elsewhere, (p. 162) a verse from the Chitor Kirtistambha in¬ scription claims that Maharana Kumbha defeated the kings of Gujarat and Malwa. On this Sir Wolseley Haig remarks: “The more famous column of victory at Chitor is said to commemorate victories over Mahmud of Gujarat and Mahmud of Malwa"" Rawn3012 (talk) 06:35, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

So what? The article is all about the event of 1444. Imperial^[AFCND] 08:07, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Flux55, seems like Rawn is not satisfied with the cited information. He is repeatedly removing cited info from some targeted articles.Imperial^[AFCND] 08:26, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Not enough sources to claim that 24 forts were captured

I have seen two editors sending me warnings of getting me block, but that does not change the point exept 1 or 2 historians no major historians writes about the capture of Gagraun and If some selective group does no one mentions fall of 24 forts. I am citing the sources here

Rima Hooja : A History of Rajasthan "Malwa-Mewar differences continued over the coming decades. Failing to capture portions of Mewar proper, Mahmud Khalji targeted areas within Kumbha’s sphere of influence, he tookGagron from the Khinchis in 1444" No detail of 24 forts

Ram Vallabh Somani: Mewar from Earliest time to 1751 Ad"They at last decided to perform Jauhar. Palnsi was allowed to go out of the fort. Next day the remaining Rajputs died fighting. The fort passed into Mahumd's possession " Rawn3012 (talk) 08:09, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Flux55, what are your thoughts? The user is not satisfied with the source of Upendra Nath Day, which is a WP:RS. And I won't mind providing another source. See this [1]. It also quotes the capture of 24 forts. I hope Rawn would make a self revert, as wikipedia is not here to satisfy everyone's POV. Imperial^[AFCND] 08:47, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado Revert my changes. I have already wasted a large amount of time on it but atleast add that the area of Gagraun was later later recaptured by Kumbha. If you want source you can have Satish Chandra Mediaval India from 1306 to 1526 "The Conflict with Sultans of Gujarat and Malwa occupied Kumbha throughout his life. During most of the time he had to contend with Rathors of Marwar too.Although sorely poccesd he was able to maintain his kingdom back. Kumbhalgarh was besiged sevral times by Sultan of Gujarat and Sultan of Malwa was able to raid as far as inland in Ajmer and other boder areas but Rana was able to repulse those attacks and retain most of his conquests exept Ranthambore' Rawn3012 (talk) 09:45, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado Can I edit the aftermath section with Rana kumbha taking Gagraun back alongwith source, without getting my edit reverted Rawn3012 (talk) 10:58, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Ofcourse, good faith edits are appreciated. Feel free to add your information. Imperial^[AFCND] 11:01, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

@Rawn3012 could you provide the page number? Imperial^[AFCND] 10:31, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

of course, You can go to page no 223 last paragraph where Satish Chandra describes the result of wars between Sultan of Gujarat and Malwa against Rana Kumbha Rawn3012 (talk) 14:14, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, we need explicit statements such as "Rana Kumbha recaptured Gagron" or "Gagron was recaptured". The edit contains WP:OR and thus, it would be reverted. Try finding another sources. Happy editing! Imperial^[AFCND] 18:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionadobut that does not mean Rana Kumbha not captured it. Gagraun was given to many jagirdars of Mewar even after Sultan's invasion. This is not fair as everytime It is difficult to find exact citiations Rawn3012 (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado I can provide you many sources which says that Gagruan was in controll of Mewar even after Sultan's invasion. This is one sided statement Rawn3012 (talk) 19:45, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado Please don't start a debate on this as said by the author exept Ranthambore all the places were recaptured meaning Gagraun was included. I have other wikepedia projects going on. This page is completely neutral. Hope you would accept Rawn3012 (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionadoYou can add this statement in your way as you like but this is a fact which people must know Rawn3012 (talk) 04:26, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

We are not "Debating" here. Everyone in this platform is trying to expand the scope of wikipedia by following its rules and regulations. WP:SYNTH is a part of the regulations. We can't make assumptions such as "Mewar reconquered Gagron", whereas the author doesn't make an explicit statement like that. Pinging @Gog the Mild , hoping he would make a conclusion here. Imperial^[AFCND] 06:00, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

I honour your statement but this not an assumption source clearly says that Rana recaptured his lost territories which clearly shows that Gagraun was under Mewari controll. Even I can show you many sources who all claim like this

Satish Chandra:Medival India from 12016 to 1526 Delhi Sultanate to Mughals - Page no 223, Last Paragraph "The Conflict with Sultans of Gujarat and Malwa occupied Kumbha throughout his life. During most of the time he had to contend with Rathors of Marwar too.Although sorely poccesd he was able to maintain his kingdom back. Kumbhalgarh was besiged sevral times by Sultan of Gujarat and Sultan of Malwa was able to raid as far as inland in Ajmer and other boder areas but Rana was able to repulse those attacks and retain most of his conquests exept some outlying areas such as Ranthambore."

Ram Vallabh Somani: History of Mewar from Earliest time to 1751 Ad Last paragraph"Maharana Kumbha compelled the Sultan to retreat, In fact after 459 A. D_ the pressure of the inroads of the Sultans of Malwa and Gujrat was camparatively reduced, and no important battle was fought with them, However, the Sultan of Malwa succeeded in conquering Ranathambhor, Nainawa, Toda, Tonk etc"

Whoever gonna make the conclusion please see these sources before making your point.

Regards

Rawn3012 (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

But that's not how things work here. We need explicit statements from the historians like "Mewar recaptured Gagron" etc. Els,e it is original research. Imperial^[AFCND] 07:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado I will try to find the above citiation but the point which you are putting is baseless as If the exact statement is not to be found that does not mean Gagraun was not recaptured or it remained in Malwa's hand for ever. Let someone else take the decision. Rawn3012 (talk) 07:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

@ImperialAficionado We cannot always apply rules everytime as History is vast and a complex subject with different opinions. Sometines we have to apply our own common sense Rawn3012 (talk) 07:53, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Rawn3012, I see where you are coming from, but I am afraid that you are incorrect in this case. Wikipedia is a tertiary source, and as such it summarises what the sources say. If the sources say nothing, so do we, no matter how clear we may think common sense is. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)