Talk:Carryduff

The last paragraph indicates that sectarian grafitti is a recent phenomenon - I can assure the writer that is not the case ;-) As far back as 1980's some sectarian hedgehead had scrawled "King Out" in red paint on Killynure Road.

The Carryduff Library was not built in the 90's, it should be introduced in the preceeding paragraph.

Yeah, the library (and Killinure House old people's home) were built in about 1981 - I remember jumping about playing on the mounds of earth on the building site beforehand.

And I remember when before the Killynure Estate was even built! It was all green fields in my day. No graffiti then! --feline1 16:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes and the carryduff centre was just a caravan park!

Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh

I have removed this name for now, as I have been unable to verify its source (it appears on a website called "Culture NI", but no references are provided there, and the website have not replied to any of my email queries over the past 2 weeks). I was born in Carryduff and lived there over 20 years and have never seen reference to it having an "Irish" name. I suspect the one from the Culture NI website is a retro-translation of the "English" name? Can anyone provide a reference to an Irish placename being used for Carryduff. (Is "Carryduff" not simply an Anglicised spelling of the original placename anyways?)--feline1 14:18, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

'Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh' was the old Irish name for the area, has been used for a long time, and has appeared on OSI (Ordnance Survey Ireland) Atlas of Ireland since it was first published. But, the translation is 'black-haired Hugh’s quarter'. I do not know of the origins of the name, myself.

It was me whom originally wrote the name, and the Irish language article too; http://ga.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceathr%C3%BA_Aodha_Dhuibh

More info

• http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8308/logainm.html
• http://www.carryduffgac.com

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.186.145 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, well I suppose we're getting somewhere with this now! Do you have a proper reference for the OSI Atlas (what date was this original publication?). I wonder what year Irish would have been supplanted by English as the general spoken language used by the inhabitants of the settlement? Would it have been in the 16th or 17th centuries? THe name "Carryduff" and other townland names (Killinure, Ballynagarrick) are presumeably older than this. What I really want to get to the nub of is: to what extent is "Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh" the "original" name? or is it a retro-translation back into Irish of "Carryduff"? My Irish orthography is rather weak - but I know, for instance, there's no letter "y", and "bh" is phonetically equivalent to "ff" - to what extent is "Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh" just the same word, just spelt in Irish orthography? "-duff", for instance, is an extremely common placename suffix in Northern Ireland.--feline1 22:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

You've probably a good point. The'OSI (Ordnance Survey Ireland) Atlas of Ireland' was last published in 2004 (I think there may be a new one comming out in 2006). When did it start? This specific publication replaced older ones, and was brought out in 1998. Though I do have another map with the name on it from the 1980's. However this is all irrelavant to the authenticity of the name.

In relation to the orthography, the name was probably lost from the area with the language. But i'm pretty sure that Crathrú Aodha Dhuibh (presently pronounced Cyeh-roo ee-ah gwee) isn't just the phonetic equivalent of Carryduff. Indeed, it was Carryduff that was the phonetic equivalent of the original East Ulster Gaelic dialect (which of course is now extinct, as all learners of the language in the region nowadays study the Western Ulster (Donegal) dialect (hense the present pronounciation)).

Though native Irish speakers (I am unfortunately not one) can easily understand the meaning of the placenames and can find out the originals fairly easily. I really can only advise you to ask the department of Celtic Studies in Queen's University, Belfast for more information

PS - Killinure Cill an Iúir (Church of the Yew Tree)

Ballynagarrick Baile na gCarraige (Townland of the Rock)

Knockbracken Cnoc Breacáin (I don't know the meaning)

I believe that explanations of the placnames of the area can be found in the Linen Hall Library, Belfast, amongst other areas.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.186.145 (talk • contribs) 20:47, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the additional info. I would be inclinded to reason that even though the East Ulster Irish dialect became extinct (supplanted with English), that the people would continue to use the same placenames - thus "Carryduff" (phonetically) is still the original Irish name... and retro-translations into the orthography of a Donegal accent are a bit dubious. Having said that, vowels and consonants do tend to shift over centuries, and it must have been 3 or more centuries since Irish was the native tongue in that part of County Down. I live in Brighton at the moment so I can't easily get to the Linenhall library to check though!--feline1 09:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't want to get into a revert war on this; I admit I was quite ignorant of the provenance the www.logainm.ie placename database - however I eagerly went there to see this "evidence" for the original placename. What they offer is this: http://www.logainm.ie/Image.aspx?PlaceID=66141&Url=box+104\PO66141_1.JPG I can't say I'm very impressed! It's some handwritten card index entry, completely unverified or unverifiable, I don't really see how it constitutes "evidence". What's the deal with this...? At best it seems to suggest that the placename from sources of 1616, 1620 and 1623 was "Barrowduffe" or similar - it does NOT appear to have a Gaelic names from that period?--feline1 (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Both "carry" and "duff" are very common elements in Irish placenames (see the main article). The folk at the Placenames Database seem to have arrived at Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh by following the name back in time. Today the name is standardised as Carryduff, but in the 1600s it could have a few different spellings. In 1659 it was Caroduff, in 1630 it was Carrowduffe or Hughduffe, in 1623 it was Carrowuduffe or Carrowhuduffe or Carrow-Hugh-Duffe, etc. I admit the writing is hard to read - for example the Cs look a lot like Bs. Nevertheless, Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh is the official modern Irish spelling. ~Asarlaí 17:17, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't really understand. The Irish Place Name database has traced the name of a settlement at that site back as far as 1616AD, and the name was always a spelling variation of the 'Carryduff' (ie pronounced basically the same way), yes? They have no record of the settlement EVER having been called "Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh" by its inhabitants, yes? I don't see any basis for your claim that The folk at the Placenames Database seem to have arrived at Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh by following the name back in time - they seem to have just made that back-translation at a much *later* time (an OS map of 1811?). This is just a 'back translation', taking the placename and translating it into a different Irish dialect? --feline1 (talk) 22:15, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Having now read the Place names in Irish article, I see it begins with the very point I originally made: is "Carryduff" not just an anglicised spelling of the original east-ulster Irish name? "Carry" is anglicised "Quarter" and "duff" is anglicised "black" - so why back-translate it into the spelling "Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh", when that dialect was never spoken in Down? Moreover where is all this "Hugh's hair" stuff coming from? It looks to me like somebody made the assumption "this place is usually known as 'Carryduff' (Black Quarter), but we've once seen it referred to as "Hughduffe" (Hugh's Quarter), so that must mean that Hugh = Black, and since we don't think he had black skin, he must have had black hair?!? Because I am not seeing the Irish word for "hair" anywhere here except in the "official" (modern) Irish name....--feline1 (talk) 22:30, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Sometime in the 1500s or 1600s the original Irish name was anglicised, and that anglicisation was simplified/shortened over time to become Carryduff. Hence, the further back you go, the closer you'll get to the original Irish. It's the same with most placenames in Ireland...

Carryduff < Carrowduffe < Carrowhuduffe < Carrow-Hugh-Duffe < Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh

Donegal < Donegall < Dunagall < Dunnagall < Dún na nGall

The earliest name is obviously derived from Ceathrú ("quarter"), Hugh (male firstname) and Dubh ("black"). Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh is the official name, and (although it's modern Irish) the spelling in the 1500s and 1600s would have been very similar.

As for the bit about "black hair" — the modern Irish name doesn't include the word "hair" and neither does the translation given. "Black Hugh"/"Hugh Duff"/"Hugh Dubh" was likely the man's nickname — see Hugh Dubh O'Neill and Irish names. ~Asarlaí 00:24, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Also bear in mind that Irish phonology works differently. Admittedly I come at it from the Scottish Gaelic phoneticians POV but the sequence of Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh would yield something much closer to Carryduff than the spelling might suggest to a non-speaker. I would hazard and educate guess that we're dealing with something close to /kʲʰaɾuː iː ɣuvʲ/ which, if you shift the stress off the ceathrú element yields something *very* close to /kʰaɾɪˈdʌf. Akerbeltz (talk) 00:47, 19 February 2010 (UTC) PS about the hair - it's a loose translation. Someone called dubh "black" is taken to be black-haired, not black-skinned. So a literal translation would the "Black Hugh's Quarter" but what is implied is "Black-haired Hugh's Quarter". Akerbeltz (talk) 00:49, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

I see. So it's rather like if in English we called something "Ginger Jim's Pub" - it would be implicitly understood that the "Ginger" thing about Jim was his hair? Likewise "Blonde Sally's Diner" or sthg... I still am not seeing a concrete source or evidence for the settlement ever being called Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh - at best we seem to have the assumption that that's what it probably must have been called prior to 1600, otherwise it wouldn't have gotten anglicised to what it later became?--feline1 (talk) 12:52, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Yes, exactly (the Ginger/Blonde bit).

As far as the place name goes, if you go to [1] and click on Taifid chartlainne down the right side, you can see the names recorded for this place going back to (in this case) 1659 (at which point there were still local Irish speakers around of course). This one shows a certain degree of variation (both in the anglicised forms and the Irish forms): Caraidh Dubh, An Chairthe Dhubh, An Cheathramha Dhubh, Ceathrú Mic Giolla Dhuibh. Based on the data collected, the place names commission in question would eventually decide on an official name for a place to be used based on their criteria for doing this. In this case, the official form chosen is Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh - I can't read all the scribbling but I would hazard a guess that the variety of anglicised forms pointed them to the original second element being Aodha rather than Mic Giolla. Either way, there's a bona fide source (the Logainm.ie site is the outlet for the place names commission) saying it's Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh and that's normally good enough for Wiki. Akerbeltz (talk) 13:16, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Logaimn isn't always correct, there are several back-translations it has screwed up.

If any Irish versions are to be added to an article but have no real-world modern use, the derive tag should be used to state that a settlement name is derived from Irish. Otherwise claiming their is a modern used Irish version of a settlement must be backed up by actual current real-world usage otherwise if its not the derive tag should be used. For this article as Carryduff GAC use "Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh", that means its in use in a real-world sense. Northern Star ^(talk) 21:35, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

That is such a bizarre argument. Just because there are no speakers of X anymore in the town of Z where there usesd to be speakers of X does not mean that the name for Z isn't used "in the real world" anymore. There are no speakers of indigenous dialects of Gaelic left in the Edinburgh area yet the Gaelic name is used extensively when speaking about the place. If you use a Welsh atlas and teach a geography class about Chirk, everyone will call it Y Waun even though there are no Welsh speakers there anymore... You're just cooking that "usage" thing up. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:41, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's bizarre at all. If the original East Ulster Irish name of Carryduff was pronounced like "Carryduff", then it is daft to claim the Irish name is actually something pronounced like "Ceathrú Aodha Dhuibh". Because it wasn't. To try another hypothetical example, if Hitler had won WWII and everyone in England was speaking German now, but he never conquered the US, it would be daft for later historians to insist that the correct "English" version of all the placenames was a phonetic spelling of someone saying everything in a Texan drawl.--feline1 (talk) 21:15, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Not to go on and ON and *ON* about this, but I still to this day do not see what the basis for Logainm.ie's decision on the "Irish name for Carryduff". The card index entry on their site [2] is just a load of unsourced, unreferenced, unverifiable scribbles. It doesn't really prove anything. I struggle to see how it meets WP:VER. All we can really say is that this particular quango decided upon this particular name (what date did they do so?)--feline1 (talk) 13:55, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

"recently privatised Translink bus company"

Has Translink actually been privatised?
--yes lol along with BT and Citybus

Census Stats

Are these figures correct? If you notice in earlier versions of the article, that they are different, yet the text says "2001 census"...

History

I have an old plot map, published in 1803, of Hawthorn Manor. Is is located here? Is there a way to contact the current owners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.67.187.121 (talk) 15:29, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Carryduff Irish sources

The two sources for the Gaelic version of Carryduff i think are invalid in the following context - it is a retrospective translation not an actual real-world usage of the Gaelic form. Northern Star ^(talk) 09:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

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