Talk:Carter Moore Braxton

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 01:08, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

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• ... that Carter Moore Braxton was a great-grandson of Carter Braxton, a Founding Father of the United States, and that he fought for the Confederacy in the American Civil War? Source: https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/braxton-carter-m-1836-1898/
  • ALT1: ... that Carter Moore Braxton fought for the Confederacy throughout the Civil War, often in the thick of battle, according to one account had seven horses killed under him, but was never wounded? Source: https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/braxton-carter-m-1836-1898/
  • ALT1a: ... that Carter Moore Braxton fought for the Confederacy throughout the American Civil War, often in the heat of battle, according to one report had seven horses killed under him, but avoided any wounds? Source: https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/braxton-carter-m-1836-1898/
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/1914 Kenwood House ball

Created by Ficaia (talk). Self-nominated at 12:45, 20 October 2022 (UTC).

• DYKs shouldn't use a conjoined hook (multiple hooks smashed together), maybe one of the following?
  • ALT2: ... that Carter Moore Braxton was a great-grandson of Carter Braxton, a Founding Father of the United States?
  • ALT3: ... that Carter Moore Braxton fought for the Confederacy in the American Civil War?
• For the article itself, it seems to only have inline references to one source, which brings notability into question. Additionally, I can't find any listings of Encyclopedia Virginia as a reliable source. However, article is new and long enough. DecafPotato (talk) 20:56, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

@DecafPotato: The Encyclopedia Virginia is based on the Dictionary of Virginia Biography and is published by the University of Virginia, so I think it's fairly obviously reliable. And there are enough other sources in the "Further reading" section to establish notability, in my view.
Is there anything automatically wrong with a double-barrelled hook? I was trying to contrast the fact that the great-grandfather was a U.S. patriot with the fact that his great-grandson fought against the U.S. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 09:08, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

@Ficaia: I feel that it could be shortened a bit, perhaps

• ALT4: ... that Carter Moore Braxton was a great-grandson of a Founding Father of the United States, and that he fought for the Confederacy in the American Civil War? Source: https://encyclopediavirginia.org/entries/braxton-carter-m-1836-1898/

For the article, it seems good, though I think a couple of the "Further reading" sections could be converted to inline citations, as the article currently only directly cites one source. Once that's fixed, just send me your QPQ and this should be good to go.

I've added the extra citations, and attached my QPQ above. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 14:33, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Looks good! I personally think ALT4 is best, as it has brevity and has the 'unlikely juxtaposition' described in the 'what makes a good DYK' page. DecafPotato (talk) 15:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

• I don't see where the source says anything about being a great-grandson of a founding father. Assuming that can get sourced, let me suggest a minor rewrite:

• ALT4a: ... that Carter Moore Braxton, a great-grandson of a Founding Father of the United States, fought for the Confederacy in the American Civil War?

-- RoySmith (talk) 19:57, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

@RoySmith: Maybe go with ALT1 then. Carter Braxton#Death and legacy lists him as a grandson, but doesn't give a source. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 20:35, 2 November 2022 (UTC)

• ALT1 also fails to verify. The source says, "One account claimed that he had seven horses shot from under him". The hook repeats that as an authoritative fact. -- RoySmith (talk) 03:44, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

@RoySmith: I've amended ALT1 accordingly. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 15:47, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, restoring tick. For future reference, rather than edit a problematic hook in-place, it's better to strike it out and generate a new one, say, ALT1a. -- RoySmith (talk) 16:07, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

the following issues were raised were raised at WP:ERRORS by Dumelow:

A few problems here. First we should state which civil war this is. Second he is said to have fought "throughout the Civil War" but the article doesn't state when he joined up. The list of battles he fought in, which is entirely uncited (and this also needs addressing), starts with the Seven Days Battles which began more than a year after the American Civil War started.

Finally, the article's "Although often embroiled in the thick of battle and reported by one later account as having had seven horses killed under him, he was never wounded. After the war Braxton prepared and published a Map of the Battle Field of Fredericksburg, Explained by Extracts from Official Reports (1866)" is very close to the source's "Although often in the thick of the fighting and described by one later account as having had seven horses killed under him, he was never wounded. After the war Braxton prepared and published a Map of the Battle Field of Fredericksburg, Explained by Extracts from Official Reports (1866)" and should be reworded to avoid close paraphrasing.

I have reopened the nomination so that these issues can be looked at. Pinging @Ficaia, RoySmith, DecafPotato, and SL93:. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 16:18, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Amakuru: I've added ALT1a above to include American Civil War in the hook. And I've just added the date he was made captain (May 8, 1861) to the article, so it is now clear he did serve throughout the war. The list of battles is taken from the Dictionary of Virginia Biography, and I've added an inline citation to the infobox, but it's not a complete list of engagements he fought in. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 16:37, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

@Amakuru: I've also changed the wording of ALT1a and the text of the article slightly. I think WP:LIMITED now applies here. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 02:35, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

@Ficaia: ordinarily I'd expect another editor to look at this as part of the normal reviewing cycle, but to speed things along I'll re-examine the points one-by-one:

1. American Civil War not spelled out in the hook - ✓ - this looks OK now; I've added links for this to the article prose, as is normal, but I'll accept that the hook doesn't need a direct link
2. Fought "throughout the Civil War" - I guess this is probably OK... technically the earliest date we know he was in the war was May 8, 1961, but that was only a month after it started so maybe can legitimately say he fought throughout... and the newspaper source does use that wording too.
3. Citation for list of battles - ✓ - although I've also added them into the prose, just to make what's being cited clearer.
4. Close paraphrasing - ✓ - looks OK to me; it's still fairly close to the source, but given it's only two sentences, it's hard to make it much more different than this!

@Dumelow: - what think you. Any more issues?  — Amakuru (talk) 10:03, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping Amakuru, my concerns have been addressed - Dumelow (talk) 11:54, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

happy to restore the tick, per above.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:30, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Icons

@Ficaia: MOS:INFOBOXFLAG includes an exception for military conflicts, not all military-related articles. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:05, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

The information in MOS:ICON for military articles is ambiguous. As we are not directly told to exclude icons from bios, this seems to be a matter in which we can decide on an article-by-article basis whether or not to include one or two. There are hundreds and hundred of military bios and other articles which include a flag, ensign or regimental colours. 𝕱𝖎𝖈𝖆𝖎𝖆 (talk) 02:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

We are told that generally flag icons should not be used in infoboxes. The fact that other such articles do is not a reason to ignore that. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:59, 14 November 2022 (UTC)