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Naming
editMitchell Barracks Castlebar, the barracks was formally referred to as Mitchell Barracks on the Dail record by the minister of defence between 2008 and 2012. I believe this is a strong case to refer to it by its formal name - while still acknowledging the usage of the local name Castlebar Military Barracks. I suspect the renaming happened around 2007/2008, I think the cookhouse was redeveloped at the time - not 100% sure though. https://www.kildarestreet.com/debate/?id=2012-05-17.469.5
- I think the Minister of Defence may have got the name wrong: it should have been Mitchel Barracks (note the single "l") after John Mitchel.[1] User:CeltBrowne: I think you moved the article to Castlebar Military Barracks: do you have a view on this? Dormskirk (talk) 20:10, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ "A proud club history". Castlebar Mitchels. Retrieved 27 March 2021.
- I reverted a previous move to "Mitchell Barracks" because after doing some research, my conclusion was that the evidence seems to be a point to the name "Mitchell Barracks" being a colloquialism rather than an official name. I don't want to handwave the name used in the Dáil, but it possible the Minister was also repeating this colloquialism rather than the official name of the Barracks. A forum post on Castlebar.ie I found previously indicated the Barracks was never referred to as "Mitchell Barracks" until the 2000s, just 10 years before it was shut down. Local media in Mayo, as I included in the article, seem to default to "Castlebar Military Barracks". I think if we were to move the article again, we need some kind of evidence the Barracks was formally renamed to Mitchell Baracks at some point, otherwise, I think we might just be repeating the colloquialism. A possible solution to this issue would be to e-mail someone who might know and see if we can find out either way. CeltBrowne (talk) 01:33, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
- OK. Many thanks for that. In the meantime, in my view, the article should remain "Castlebar Military Barracks". Dormskirk (talk) 10:07, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
- I reverted a previous move to "Mitchell Barracks" because after doing some research, my conclusion was that the evidence seems to be a point to the name "Mitchell Barracks" being a colloquialism rather than an official name. I don't want to handwave the name used in the Dáil, but it possible the Minister was also repeating this colloquialism rather than the official name of the Barracks. A forum post on Castlebar.ie I found previously indicated the Barracks was never referred to as "Mitchell Barracks" until the 2000s, just 10 years before it was shut down. Local media in Mayo, as I included in the article, seem to default to "Castlebar Military Barracks". I think if we were to move the article again, we need some kind of evidence the Barracks was formally renamed to Mitchell Baracks at some point, otherwise, I think we might just be repeating the colloquialism. A possible solution to this issue would be to e-mail someone who might know and see if we can find out either way. CeltBrowne (talk) 01:33, 28 March 2021 (UTC)
- I don't believe this is the case "Mitchell" was used on the Dail record 9 times between 2008-2014. In addition to the same spelling on the https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2021/03/20/memories-of-the-military-barracks-in-castlebar/ article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnflan (talk • contribs) 21:50, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- "In november 2011, the Government announced a further phase of consolidation of military barracks with the closure of Kickham Barracks (Clonmel), Mitchell Barracks (Castlebar), o’neill Barracks (Cavan) and Columb Barracks (Mullingar)." In the Defence Forces annual report 2011 https://www.military.ie/en/public-information/publications/annual_report_2011_en.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnflan (talk • contribs) 22:07, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- Who was the barracks named after then if it was not John Mitchel? Dormskirk (talk) 22:25, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- Fort Mitchel is named after John Mitchel too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_Island,_County_Cork — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnflan (talk • contribs) 22:47, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- OK. But if you think the correct name was Mitchell Barracks, who was Mitchell? Dormskirk (talk) 22:59, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- Fort Mitchel is named after John Mitchel too https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spike_Island,_County_Cork — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnflan (talk • contribs) 22:47, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- Who was the barracks named after then if it was not John Mitchel? Dormskirk (talk) 22:25, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
- Additionally the barracks was referred to in the Irish Times recently
- > As part of its ongoing programme of “barracks consolidation”, the Department of Defence sold Mitchell Barracks in Co Mayo last year for €600,000, with the funds being reinvested in the defence capital programme.
- https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2022/08/03/just-44-women-joined-defence-forces-last-year-despite-new-recruitment-efforts/ johnflan (talk) 19:53, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I note you have now inserted the name "Mitchell Barracks" in the lead. As discussed above, there is a severe risk here that wikipedia is either repeating a colloquialism or perpetuating an error. And nobody has explained yet who Mitchell is. Dormskirk (talk) 20:50, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- See my comment below, I don't know what more I can show -- in fact there is less evidence for the name "Castlebar Military Barracks". I don't see how knowing who Mitchell is or was, is related to using the correct name? johnflan (talk) 21:33, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I note you have now inserted the name "Mitchell Barracks" in the lead. As discussed above, there is a severe risk here that wikipedia is either repeating a colloquialism or perpetuating an error. And nobody has explained yet who Mitchell is. Dormskirk (talk) 20:50, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- "In november 2011, the Government announced a further phase of consolidation of military barracks with the closure of Kickham Barracks (Clonmel), Mitchell Barracks (Castlebar), o’neill Barracks (Cavan) and Columb Barracks (Mullingar)." In the Defence Forces annual report 2011 https://www.military.ie/en/public-information/publications/annual_report_2011_en.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnflan (talk • contribs) 22:07, 27 March 2021 (UTC)
Hey Dormskirk - You changed "formally Mitchell Barracks" to "sometimes referred to as "Mitchell Barracks"", Can you show some formal evidence that the name is not Mitchell Barracks, I have shown numerous pieces of evidence Military documents, oireachtas minutes as well as articles in national news papers. I totally agree in Castlebar it is referred to colloquially as Castlebar Military Barracks, but that as the evidence shows was not the formal name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnflan (talk • contribs) 21:07, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I do not need to prove a negative. You need to show that it is called Mitchell Barracks. I do not believe that it is formally called Mitchell Barracks now (it has been closed for a decade) or ever was called Mitchell barracks and I am not even sure that "Mitchell" ever existed. We do things by consensus here and you should not have added the extra words in the lead without first securing a consensus. But more importantly, you seem to be perpetuating an error which is unhelpful to put it mildly. Dormskirk (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I don't accept for a moment showing documentary evidence for "Castlebar Military Barracks" in the official records is proving a negative. The barracks has been closed for a decade but the article above shows it was only removed from the military estate this year (but thats not relevant). Consensus? facts i would be more heavily weighted towards. You state I am "perpetuating an error" I cannot for a moment see how that accusation relates to the evidence from a multitude of sources that I have recorded here.
- My desire here is to make the article correct according to the evidence (as I'm sure you can see from my previous changes), I don't have the desire to spend the evening arguing with you on this. johnflan (talk) 22:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- As explained by CeltBrowne above, it appears that, in referring to "Mitchell Barracks", the "Minister was also repeating this colloquialism rather than the official name of the Barracks." I hear you do not want to continue the discussion, but please read WP:CONSENSUS before making further edits to this or any other article. Dormskirk (talk) 22:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- I do not need to prove a negative. You need to show that it is called Mitchell Barracks. I do not believe that it is formally called Mitchell Barracks now (it has been closed for a decade) or ever was called Mitchell barracks and I am not even sure that "Mitchell" ever existed. We do things by consensus here and you should not have added the extra words in the lead without first securing a consensus. But more importantly, you seem to be perpetuating an error which is unhelpful to put it mildly. Dormskirk (talk) 22:10, 3 August 2022 (UTC)