Talk:Catalan Countries/Archive 1

Nonsense map

The map of the catalan countries is pure fantasy. There is actually a fascist current in Catalonia that wants to include territories as Valencia or Balears in a invented entity called Catalan Countries. Valencia and Balears are different countries and communities inside Spain, with their own governments.

Lots of people still speak Catalan in these regions, although they are now in minority. Hugo Dufort 03:35, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

There's not any fascism. It's not an invented entity, because it existed: Corona d'Aragó. The idea is joining together those countries where catalan is spoken: Balearic Islands, Catalonia, Valencia, and a part of the Southern France. It's not fascism, it's a fully democratic proposal. It would only be possible if people wants it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.43.73.233 (talk) 02:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Old undated remark

I removed the sentence

A large, very vocal minority of the inhabitants of the Catalan Countries fervently believe in this concept.

because

1. The meaning of "a large minority" is ambiguous.
2. The remark about fervency does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedia.

I don't see why his article and Catalan independence should be merged. They have different subjects.

confusing sentence

This sentence from the article

This concept is met with significant popular approval in Catalonia, peaceful indifference in the Balearic Islands and with resounding disapproval in the Valencian Community.

either has not much meaning or it is not true. Of course, any political idea is met with different degrees of approval at different places. But everywhere you may find people enthusiastic, indifferent and contrary to it. I understand the idea of the writer of the sentence, but as it is written it is not at all NPOV. In my experience, most Valencians I know are more enthusiastic about the catalan countries than most people from Catalonia. Lacking a rewriting or some justification (real data from somewhere, if it exists), I will remove it.

Don't know whom you know in Valencia, but surely they're not representative of Valencian people. Not having any opinion polls to draw from, I think results of elections are the best pxoy we can use- and PP's absolute mayority in Valencia one election after the other are not quite coherent with your point about Valencian support for the Catalan countries. Out of 89 deputies ellected in the 2003 regional ellections, 0 (zero!) belong to political parties that support the Catalan countries.

I'm not saying at all that most valencians support the catalan countries. It's just that, without appropriate data, the removed sentence held not much meaning. As a side note, I don't understand your point about the number of deputies. There are politicians in several parties with different degrees of support for the catalan countries, for instance in BNV, EU, and even in the PSPV, and this last party governed some years ago.

That is just nationalist propaganda. The reality is that in the Valencian Community, the groups that support the idea of Catalan Countries didn't get enough votes to be represented in the Valencian Parliament. Also in the Balearic Islands they hardly have representation. I restored the sentence as in This concept is met with significant popular approval in Catalonia, indifference in the Balearic Islands and with resounding disapproval in the Valencian Community.

"Support for the catalan countries" does not seem to be a main issue in valencian politics. Thus, it is difficult to measure its support using only electoral results, because the position of each political party is not homogeneous about this issue. Moreover, your claim about the valencian parliement is false. There are 6 deputies of the "entesa" (reference) some of which support the idea of the catalan countries. Also, note that BNV has almost 5% of the votes, which is indeed a significant proportion (albeit not enough to obtain representatives).

It would be nice to have some real data (like a poll asking for support of the idea in the catalan countries) to be able to report encyclopedic facts here. Then, we could forget this kind of discussion, as this is not a political forum. coco

For what is worth, here's a link of a recent polling (October 2005) about it [1]. In short, To the question, Do you think your community belong to the Catalan Countries, the answers were

Community	Against	For	N/A
Balearic Islands	66,2 %	24,6 %	9,2 %
Valencia	81 %	15,2 %	3,8 %

I don't put too much trust on polls, but it does gives some clue --Wllacer 10:18, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Good link Wllacer. It would be interesting to have more data like this. The problem I see is that the reference article is strongly politically biased and particularly used as a political weapon against the Prime Minister of Spain. Toniher 13:11, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

The article is indeed biased, but the poll data can be serious. I don't know how to judge it. As a side note, the poll questions do not clearly separate the cultural and political meanings of "Catalan Countries". I believe that most people agrees in the cultural unity of the Catalan Countries and don't want (or don't see the need of) a political unity besides being inside europe. coco

I haven't had access to a printed edition of Epoca, so it's hard to judge the poll from a statistic POV (and sigma2 doesn't gives data on its web page), and for sure, wasn't as detailed as we need it (and lacked data from Catalonia proper). But for what I know Sigma2 is a serious company, so the data can be trusted on a first approach (±5-10%)--Wllacer 20:24, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Not by repeating a lie much one becomes truth. You will be able to include it in all encyclopedias of the world, you will be able spend millions in propagating it in all the countries, you will be able to shout it until losing the voice, but NEVER, Something "Valencian" will never be something "Catalan". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.140.16.187 (talk • contribs) 30 May 2006.

Origin of the expression?

I've removed the sentence

"""Like the Germans this extremist movement defines the Catalan Countries from Salses to Guardamar and from Fraga to Maó."""

because the "like the Germans" doesn't make any sense and because I can't find the origin of the expresion. The original form was

"""A popular saying defines the Catalan Countries from Salses to Guardamar and from Fraga to Maó"""

The german ties are evident In the DeutschlandLied : "Von der Maas bis an die Memel/Von der Etsch bis an den Belt ...". But I think is just coincidence --Wllacer 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Can someone confirm (and provide a link) whether the phrase is indeed popular or if it's tied to nationalistic culture? --Diego Moya 16:06, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

How does one prove that a saying is popular? I've heard it everywhere, but only orally. Maybe we should remove the adjective "popular" until we have a precise definition of it, but meanwhile I recover the sentence. coco

My doubt was wether this saying had extreme nationalist connotations or it was used by general public. If you have heard it everywhere, I think it's safe to recover it.

My first recollection is around 1975, and i have memories of beeing one radical catch-phrase. I have always associated it with Omnium Cultural (don't remember why) and the radical group PSAN who used it in its Propaganda--Wllacer 17:05, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

I cannot understand the polemics about this sentence. In some sense, it may be regarded a synonym of Catalan Countries. It is used mainly for emphasizing the geographic limits of the cultural and/or political concept. So, this would be considered as 'extremist' as Catalan Countries term might be. Catalan Countries term usage (and this saying as well) was initially minoritary and is nowadays increasingly widespread. This is because there is being a significant recovery of Catalan culture and also an increasing Catalan nationalism/independentism. Parallelly, nowadays Catalan independentism is mostly focused on Catalan Countries, not in Catalonia. All these facts may be reflected in different related articles.

The motto of Omnium is 'Llengua, Cultura, País' (Language, Culture, Country). Omnium acts mostly in Catalonia, but it frequently collaborates with analogous organizations in Balearics Islands (Obra Cultural Balear) and Land of Valencia (Acció Cultural del País Valencià). Toniher 11:24, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Meta-discussion

(I've upgraded this from the last entry about the sentence) Probably your're right, the phrase doesn't go beyond the anecdotic (that was the sense i wrote my comment, just personal recolletion) but the fact is that the whole concept of Catalan countries is indeed still very polemic (just remember the show a couple of weeks ago in the "Nou Camp", and the reaction in Valencia). I think the whole entry should be marked as polemic and a thead could be started in the Talk Page about this polemics, to keep the readership informed as long as it keeps on an educated interchange of postures. I would throw then my two cents , What do other contributors think ? --Wllacer 20:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there is no point in adding such a tag as you are suggesting. It's rather obvious that Spanish nationalists (and French ones) strongly refuse this. If added, such a tag should also be added to Euskal Herria, Kurdistan, Palestine, Israel, etc. or more if we considered all the different POV. I think it's better to further develop the topics I suppose you are suggesting in different articles such as Catalan nationalism, Spanish nationalism, Politics of Spain, Politics of France, etc.

Putting the tag is just a matter of editorial and informational nature, not to take a stance. If one tries to write a NPOV encyclopedia and you have entries about items currently in political/social discussion, i think it's well advised to flag them somehow; esp. for the benefit of readers which don't know anything about: the absolute majority of wikipedia readership (and "leech" sites). We should review how is this done in the rest of wikipedia, and their policies, and act accordingly

The reaction you comment about the celebration of Correllengua during half-part in Camp Nou was from the Valencian government and pro-Spanish parties, groups or media. Spanish nationalism in Land of Valencia is indeed stronger than in Catalonia and also less tolerant than it is in Catalonia (which, as a whole, has generally an Iberianistic trend). But this does not imply that all Valencian people are against it, as some media tend to suggest. Catalan Countries present concept is indeed born in the very Land of Valencia and later exported to the other territories. Just as an annotation as reference: there have been Correllengua events in 128 towns in the very Land of Valencia. It is indeed organized there by ACPV (Acció Cultural del País Valencià). I lament all the offtopic stuff I have written. However, I think this may be used as a starting point or extra information for related articles. Best regards Toniher 01:37, 31 October 2005 (UTC).

I might be wrong, but I have a very distinct feeling about the sentiments in Valencia, and I'm not by any means what's called a "blavero" (valencian anticatalanist). The situation there is (or was, since i'm not living there for years) extremely complex, worthy a lengthly topic. Joan Fuster was more right in discovering the divide between Valencia city and land than perhaps in any other thesis in his "Nosaltres els valencians" (I own a copy one since the 70's), and outside viewers might easly confused on causes and effects. And you might allow me to deeply mistrust any attempt to count the spreading of a normalized language as the support of a political agenda.

Toniher, your's aren't offtopic remarks and I fully appreciate your input, and if only for the sake of wikipedia, let's hope this (and other threads) could give a better understanding of the question. --Wllacer 10:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Answering Wllacer's request for opinions, I think that it can be interesting to have a section (instead of a tag) talking about the "acceptance" of the Catalan Countries in the different parts of the territory. However, the knowledge described in that section should be of an encyclopedic nature, and I've found it extremely difficult to find sources for that. I agree with Toniher in that the situation is analogous with te articles on Palestine, Kurdistan, Euskal Herria, etc.coco

I've revised wikipedia's policy, Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view, and coco is right, and I was wrong. Besides a carefull wording, we must somehow manage to get a "critical evaluation" or "controversy" section. I'd split it in two parts one refering to the cultural concept and one to the political to better reflect the dual nature of the term (at least i think it's worth)-Wllacer 19:51, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

One thing that we must take into account is that this political-cultural dualism is often, de facto, more a continuum than a discrete reality. This is because Catalan nationalism, as a whole, has Catalan language as one of its pilars, Spanish and French ones do as well. There are other cases, such as Irish nationalism, which religion was especially more prominent. Please, see nationalism. Toniher 21:55, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

To make me better undestood, I'll try to explain my view of the "controversy" section, with a (not so casual) analogy. For the cultural aspect, do we speak of "Culture(s) in German language" or "German Culture", when studying german (proper), german-swiss and austrian culture(s)?. Given the second clause, in the most unitary sense, ¿do we want/need a polity unifying all areas covered by the "german culture"?. This is the political question. The last (in my analogy) is settled in the foreseable future, but not the first, at least in Switzerland.

Following the analogy, the different languages in Switzerland do make (at least) four diferent cultures or one (or several transversal) multilingüal culture(s)?. Substitute for the relevant terms (to us), and add a note to the "valencian is not catalan", and you'll have a script for a controversy section --Wllacer 16:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Wllacer, I understand you. And it is a very interesting topic to deal about, and not only for the Catalan Countries, as you have noted. However, specially if we consider this case, we cannot forget the differences with the German world. In the political sense, Germany and Austria are independent countries, and Switzerland is a paradigmatic federal state with high respect for cultural-linguistic diversity. On the other hand, except for the tiny country of Andorra, most of the territory of the Catalan Countries remain under French and Spanish jurisdiction with a variable and limited sovereignty. Some consider this concept as a kind of solidarity call between formerly more sovereign territories with a common origin culture in order to fight back the assimilation of Spanish and French majoritary cultures, and usually associated with the wish of recovering a lost sovereignty. A more extreme and also close case is current Aragon, which has been more strongly assimilated than other territories of the very former Crown of Aragon. All these things can be much explained if we consider socio-historical aspects.

Specially militant Spanish nationalists or anticalanists refer to the idea of Catalan Countries as Pancatalanism in order to compare it to Pan-Germanism, and consequently to Nazism. They usually consider promotion of native languages and certain cultural representations (especially in Balearic Islands and Land of Valencia) as an imperialistic cultural and political invasion of Catalonia. Those who do not simply adhere to Spanish language and culture, follow to accentuate the local linguistic differences and propose more of less different alternative language norms which are usually closer to Spanish language.

This is the case of Valencian denomination polemics and blaverism, and it is one of the central points of much of the Politics of Land of Valencia since the end of the Franco dictatorship.

Apart from the obvious Spanish nationalist criticisms, there also some critics from Catalan/Valencian nationalist circles. For instance, some like the concept but find the name is not suitable because of the "Catalan" term. In English language is possible to differentiate between Catalan (Catalan language, culture) and Catalonian (country), but it is not possible in Catalan, Spanish and other languages, and so the term may be regarded as ambiguous. They would suggest other names, but there is not currently any strong proposed alternative. etc. etc. etc. Toniher 12:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... this pair of paragraphs you've wrote could make a valuable addition to the article:

"Some consider this concept as a kind of solidarity call between formerly more sovereign territories with a common origin culture in order to fight back the assimilation of Spanish and French majoritary cultures, and usually associated with the wish of recovering a lost sovereignty. On the other side militant Spanish nationalists or anticalanists refer to the idea of Catalan Countries as Pancatalanism in order to compare it to Pan-Germanism, and consequently to Nazism. They usually consider promotion of native languages and certain cultural representations (especially in Balearic Islands and Land of Valencia) as an imperialistic cultural and political invasion of Catalonia."

What do you think? 62.57.115.47 01:26, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok. I agree, I add it. Toniher 09:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't agree at all with the reference to nazism. I've never heard (besides some ramdom trolls) anything like that, even from spanish nationalists. Does it really deserve a paragraph? I would leave only the first part of the paragraph about the solidarity call. However, the idea of confronting two views is valuable (without references to nazism. Seriously, ¿what does it have to do with the catalan countries??) coco

The spanish nationalists PP from Valencia, among others, do use the term nazism to refer to the cultural concept of Catalan Countries (history shows us this is the pot calling the kettle black, but in this case the kettle isn't even grey) they spread FUD by claiming the catalans are annexionists and things like that. You can google for it if you don't believe it, but remember to do it in spanish because they rarely use that ilusory language they claim it's theirs and sooo different to catalan, the Valencian. 62.57.115.47 22:32, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

This comparison is frequent from these groups in opinion columns and even articles of daily published newspapers. It's not a nice fact but things are really this way. It may be considered that groups which may be regarded as 'blavers', which use a non-normative Valencian normally use this comparison as well, but they may be mostly regarded as a whole as anticalanist. Toniher 23:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I was aware of the different actual political status on my analogy, but I chose it for several reasons

• It's true that none of the major "components" of the catalan countries are by itself subjects of international right since a long time, if ever (we can skip Andorra in this discussion), it's no less true that they have ever been, "de jure" or "de facto", acknowledged as separated entities from each other. The novelty of Joan Fuster's view was that he belived to have found a common ground enough to merge them in one (at least cultural) nation. In this sense it mirrors the seeds of XIX german nationalism
• For much of the XIX century and beyond, there was a discussion about the validity of the concept of an unified german cultural nation and what it meant to the political future (Klein vs Grossdeutschand, the Main divide, the status of german swiss, bavarian particularismus, the status of Austria, ...)
• Classical german nationalism (a la Savigny) did not needed statehood to define itself, so it's a better mirror to check the very existence of cultural catalan countries, which is a prerrequisite for any political aspirations which are not "imperialistic".
• The actual conformation of the german speaking states is in fact very modern, driven by nationalism, and I would say, the results are almost casual. Germany as such exists since 1871 (with very different borders), Austria since 1920 and Switzerland, as we know it, probably since 1845 (the Sonderbund war). This is the end result, but does not reflect the status in which german nationalism grew.

Related to our discussion, i just found an e-book about nationalism and history [2], in the article "Nacionalismo y ciencia histórica en la representación del pasado valenciano" from Pedro Luis Torres, you can find an interesting account on the historiographical debate sparked by Fuster's thesis, and it's evolution in the last years.

It's true the term "pancatalanism" is derogatory, but I'm afraid it's usage reflects a more than common perception in Valencia (as usual we see thing in a very different light) and doesn't limit itself to spanish nationalist circles (objectively, what's this anyhow in 2005?). And part of it is to be blamed to the "language zealots". Normative Catalan is closely modelled after the Central Catalan dialect (around Barcelona), and -willingly- expurged of shared vocabulary with spanish. When strictly taught in the Land of Valencia, it becomes an artificial language, both for native and for spanish speakers, dreaded in school as much as mathematics (it's a common conversation topic). I learnt it (and tried to use) in the early 70's, and can still remember the face of my grandmother, every time i used it to speak to her ...

I'd love to see statistics about the common day usage of the languages in Valencia now, compared to 1980, because the impression i get from my hometown (once considered a bulkward of catalanism) is of stability or even regresion in the day to day usage of valencian/catalan.

The history of the political turmoil around the "signs of identity" of Valencia, would make a great article in wikipedia, but sadly in the line of the Japanese Toilet article, as it was so shameful that it only deserves an humoristic article. The geography of the support to the extreme valencianist (anticatalanist) thesis (using the support to Unió Valenciana as token) reveals one of the internal contradictions of the region, Valencia city vs. the "hinterland" (the rest) . It was basically limited to Valencia city and its environs (the area where the very distinct "apixat" dialect is spoken). And was minimal in areas like Castellón -with an historical grudge against Valencia City- with the exception of the town of Burriana, which in turn has an anti-castellon tradition, ...

Thanks to the pragmatism of PSPV/PSOE and PP is a dead matter now, but for small groups on both sides. One can still hear some boos to the regional himn, but it's all what remains of that.

--Wllacer 12:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Your comments about the language are interesting and and can be further discussed in Catalan or Valencian entries. These topics are commonly discussed among people interested in Catalan language. I personally agree in some things and not in others, but this would take me too long for today... :(

Have you seen the Talk:Valencian page ? NO thanks ;-) Btw. the article as such is superb in the phonological realm, which is not what worries me more (if i'm not accenting). But you're right is a loooong topic --Wllacer 09:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Valencian usage might have regressed considering two things: 1. The common global dynamics which favour extinction of minoritary or minorised languages in favour of majoritary ones. 2. A less devoted linguistic policy as in Catalonia. It makes sense since PP and PSPV/PSOE are political parties which are part of Spanish counterparts if compared to to Catalonia, governed by CiU (a Catalonian based party) since first democratic elections and until a couple of years ago.

As I wrote about it,(and remember it's just a feeling I have, no hard facts) I was thinking on a couple of other hypotesis:

• The gap between normative and "street" language (and the schooling difficulties associated) has created a disglosy in the body of native speakers, with some degree of rejection of the formal language, which is skipped where it should be used in favor of the other formal language (spanish). It links to your second point, as public administration in Valencia is/must be "language neutral"
• The usage of the normative Catalan is still/has become so politically laden, that it difficults a more widespread adoption.

This choices against the formal language might lead, sooner o later, to a more spreading of spanish as street/home language. Any thoughts /data about it ?--Wllacer 09:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I do not think that the problem is so much about the normative, despite there are several discussions in this aspect; but maybe more about the association of Catalan usage to political positions (second point you comment), and that in spite of the language distribution of the historical regional distribution of Spanish and Valencian in Land of Valencia, Valencian governments have supported Valencian usage in traditional Valencian-speaking regions less decisively than in Catalonia. Despite I do personally consider that whole Catalan normative may be improved in terms of dialectal variety, I also think that it is indeed more tolerant than Spanish or French one if we consider linguistic variety, the French case is, for instance, an extreme. We must not forget that social usage of Catalan has been severely limited since Decretos de Nueva Planta, and this obviously have its consequences. Apart, we have other implications related to a current global world and media, so rural areas are not so much isolated as before. Hence, they are more prone to a higher Spanish linguistic assimilation. Toniher 11:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I must gently disagree about the tolerance, at least in regards to school class (for what i knew, things might have changed). And don't underestimate the rejection factor (the most hated class means something)--Wllacer 12:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

As we have said before, there should be several articles about Land of Valencia politics in Wikipedia. There are several of them in Valencian and Spanish wikipedia. It may also be useful as a resource a documentary about Transition in this territory. Del Roig al Blau, produced by University of Valencia. mms://147.156.41.66/DO-del_roig_al_blau -> Streaming and it may be found in many other places, there are also Spanish subtitles around... Toniher 00:20, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Ok, maybe I'm a bit disconnected from mainstream media. I would like to see some references of the comparison of catalanism with nazism, coming from serious spanish sources (say, online political fora don't count). Anyway, if only to avoid Godwin's law, I still think we should omit the word nazism in the article. If this relationship really does have to appear in an encyclopedia, maybe it deserves a separate article about anticatalanism. coco

Two newspaper references [3] [4]. If this paragraph is regarded as too strong for this article (despite being a fact) I would not personally mind it could be placed in another article such as anticalanism or pancatalanism. Toniher 00:38, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

No need to cut the paragraph, but like User:coco and for the same reason, i'd omit the reference to nazism. Perhaps the two paragraphs need some more NPOV rewording, something like (I put the bullet just for clarity here):

• The term may be used with a strictly cultural rather than nationalistic meaning, somewhat analogously to Francophony or Hispanic America. In this case, the latter locations are also included within this definition.
• Some consider this concept as a kind of solidarity call between historically and culturally related territores, in order to counterbalance the assimilation into Spanish and French majoritary cultures. This view may usually be associated with the wish of attaining some degree or full sovereignty
• On the other extreme, some refer to the idea of Catalan Countries as Pancatalanism (with a distinct derogatory sense, as they are called anticatalanists). The latter consider the whole concept and certain related cultural activities, which could include the promotion of the normative Catalan language, (especially in Balearic Islands and the Land of Valencia) as vector of imperialistic ambitions from Catalonia."

What do you think ? --Wllacer 08:36, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Fine for me, I would personally change -> On the other extreme for on the other hand or somewhat. It is best not to describe one or other positions as extremist. I would remove the normative reference, because those who oppose are usually either non-Valencian speakers or simply consider that Valencian!=Catalan language. Many people who suggest changes in normative are indeed very happy with these promotions of Catalan language, because these are mostly centered on its usage and not in specific linguistic aspects. Toniher 11:42, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. The funny thing is that in this survey of opinions we have left out my own (and probably of many valencians): I accept the unity of the language, but I reject the idea of the Països Catalans as a plain artificial construct (nobody noticed ? ;-) But let's stop now in this thread, we're running out of colons !!! --Wllacer 12:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I've updated the article accordingly, but I don't like the last sentence. Pls. feel free to better it.--Wllacer 13:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

The absurdity of the term "Catalan Countries"

I stick to my previous comment about the absurdity of this term using a comparison with the Republic of Ireland (Eire). Why is it that nobody refers to the Republic of Ireland (Eire) as being part of the "British Countries" or "English Countries"? Why is it then considered logical to put an entry such as "Catalan countries"?

The term exists but I don't see why it deserves a place in Wikipedia. Assuming that in its effort to cover all subjects "objectively" why should such a comparison be ommited? After all, an entry in Wikipedia should present both sides of an argument!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.40.23.72 (talk • contribs) 26 Nov 2005.

"Why is it that nobody refers to the Republic of Ireland (Eire) as being part of the … "English Countries"? Possibly because the usual term is "The English-speaking countries", since "English" coupled with "country" only refers to one country. As an ethnicity, the Irish are clearly not English (nor are the Scots, the Welsh, the Ugandans, most of the Americans, most of the Australians, etc.). In the case of the Catalan-speaking peoples, it is much less clear that there is an ethnic distinction. Not that I'm saying there isn't one, just that it's much less clear. Also, Catalan national identity is largely defined by language, English national identity is more defined by ancestry. I have a co-worker with a Basque father and a Galician mother; she grew up in Barcelona and simply considers herself Catalan. A London equivalent might consider herself to be British, but probably not "English" (though this might change if she married someone more unambiguously English). "British", unqualified, does not usually include even Northern Ireland. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:38, 26 November 2005 (UTC)

There is Anglosphere. --Error 04:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The respect to the culture and the opinion of a community is the base of all knowledge. An encyclopedia and any person who boasts to defend the culture must fight by this.

Over any discussion with innumerable reasons it is the objective truth, and in this case it is that the Valencians never have felt nor feel Catalan. Any attempt to impose the opposite will be incorrect. Any attempt to put to the Valencians in a community (linguistic, cultural or political) under denomination of "Catalan" it will mean the elimination of a people and a culture. The Valencians have their own history as kingdom of Valencia (before the conquest of Jaume I already the Kingdom of Valencia even existed), its own Literature (innumerable examples, to only mention some: Ausias March and Joanot Martorell), its own traditions (that are not those of Catalonia), Its own culture (in all the scopes, that she is not Catalan), its own control systems (they are not a province of Catalonia and it has never formed part of no organization or Catalan nation) and its own language (of origin different from the Catalan language –provençal- with category of official language and the conscience of its speakers to speak "Valencian", independently of which it is looked like the Catalan).

If the Valencians never have tried to absorve the culture of Catalonia, nor to distort the history of Catalonia, nor, really to eliminate Catalonia like independent reality of Valencia, why the Catalans yes do all this, and they do not respect the Valencians? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.140.16.187 (talk • contribs) 30 May 2006.

To our anonymous vandalizer

Please if you don't believe in the idea of the "Països Catalans" (neither do I, read my previous contributions), don't substitute the whole article. Log into wikipedia, come here to the talk page, put your statements in a way suited for academic discussion, and be open for it. I'm pretty sure we'll find a way your vision will be reflected in the article, as mine had. Sometimes you'll have my support, sometimes not.

Otherwise i'll consider you a vandal, and i'll request your IP to be banned. This is not the wikipedia way ... --Wllacer 07:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm suspecting that it could be the same user that's participating agressivelly on Wikipedia in Spanish under the username account es:User:Fuster. In summer an administrator had to block it through two IP ranks (81.41.234.0/24, and 81.41.232.0/24). --Joanot Martorell ✉ 18:49, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Language Policy

Joan sense nick removed the sentence "It also can refer to those territories where a language policy has been set up in order to favor the preferential (and, in many cases, exclusive) use of the Catalan language." I had just recently changed it for clarity of concept. I completely agree that it shouldn't belong in this article but in a separate one, or perhaps as an example in language policy. --Mankawabi (16 Jan 2006)

Citations

As for the request for citations, well, I would remove the one after "not present at all" and the one after "claims to include".

I'd do so based in the electoral results, which give us a very good idea of the "sentiment" in this regard: in the Land of Valencia's regional parliament there is no nationalist party who succeeds to overcome the 5% votes threshold; besides, the one which has been historically in close of so doing is Bloc, which is not a really "Catalan countries" supporter.

In the Balearics, the PP (a staunch anti-Catalan countries party) holds an absolute majority (just like in the Land of Valencia, by the way), while there are two small nationalist parties in the regional parliament, PSM (4 seats in the autonomous parliament) and UM (3 seats in the autonomous parlimanet, the total number of seats is 59).

UM is in a similar situation to the Bloc's: while being a nationalist party and not denying the unity of Catalan language (something which other minoritary parties do), they are not really supportive of the idea, seen as a 'cheeky' attempt from Catalonia's to overspill the limits of its own Autonomous Community and enter local politics in some others. PSM is indeed mildly supportive of the Catalan Countries idea, but his electoral success is quite limited.

I have no data about this one, but I'm guessing that in La Franja municipalities (let alone the Aragonese regional parliament), there are no nationalist parties achieving representation or, if they did, it would be quite minoritary.

Looks like the factuality of this is strong enough to get these two request for citations removed.

Mountolive 22:41, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

What about l'Alguer?

Everybody knows there is a little village in Sardinia where they speak a dialect of catalan (alguerese). Shouldn't the map be changed?

Onofre Bouvila 04:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Alghero is not usually counted as one of the "Catalan Countries", though it would be included in the "Catalan-speaking world". - Jmabel | Talk 20:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Would not this apply to Andorra as well? This hole concept of "Catalan Countries" seems weak to me. - Tony

The Catalan is co-official in L'Alguer and there are catalans living there. I've always heard about it as a part of the Catalan Countries, and you just have to search "catalan countries" at Google to see it, so I really don't know what are you talking about. Your point of view is quite subjective. I've added it to the article. Here you can check what I am saying: [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. The fact that many people does not add it to the "usual" list of Catalan Countries is due to their ignorance. Onofre Bouvila 00:27, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Re-Name

OK, maybe this is a good idea, maybe not. Catalan Countries is a term I've never heard used in public discourse in English, nor is it used in academic circles, where the original "paisos catalans" or descriptive phrases like "regions in which Catalan is spoken", "traditionally catalan speaking regions" are used. Having an article with this name amounts to wikipedia creating an English term, and then importing a definition of that term that is highly controversial in Spain. Is wikipedia creating the Catalan Countries, rather than describing them? Sorry for going all french and post modern there: But if that was in any way comprehensible I'd like your feedback, with a view to changing the name of the article to "paisos catalans".

I know its not good to use a foreign word as the title for an encyclopedia article, but the translation is ropey as a sail-boat anyway: Mallorca, Valencia and Menorca, by the English definition of the word, never have been, nor ever will be, countries.

080107 boynamedsue

I'd have no real problem with that. Elsewhere, we've used "Catalan-speaking world", but that is probably wrong here: the article is really about the (basically political more than academic) use of "paisos catalans". - Jmabel | Talk 06:15, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I never realized of how odd "Catalan Countries" may sound in English and it makes sense what you point out about "Catalan Countries" creating an English term which is obviously out of the scope of an encyclopedia. In other words, yes, looks like re-naming to "Països (don't forget the umlaut) Catalans" is best, in the fashion of similar difficult to translate concepts such as Anschluss, which are kept in the original German here. Mountolive 06:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Controversy

I have edited restoring some parts which had been removed over the last weeks without -I believe- further explanation or discussion. Also I removed Josep Guia and Vicent Partal because their relevance is quite limited, but I guess I wouldn't have a problem in seeing them back if someone thinks is very necessary. Mountolive 02:54, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

ps. I am restoring myself Josep Guia, as he even has an article...he's not that relevant anyway, but...Mountolive 03:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

I do think they are relevant in this topic. Of course, Vicent Partal has not the media influence of the Spaniards Jesús de Polanco or Pedro J. Ramírez, but he is, no doubt, one of the major referents of Catalan media. Toniher 00:26, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

My apologies: I didn't have any idea that Mr. Partal is the mastermind behind Vilaweb, that makes him somewhat relevant indeed in en.wiki, (I don't think the same for Mr. Guia, but I wouldn't dare to remove one 'blue link', in spite of being obvious that articles for example like Guia's can be written by mere whim). So, we're good here.

Regarding the rest of your edit I have some objections for some parts. I don't agree with removing "very" behind minoritary nor "not present at all". The fact that ERPV has three city councilors in Sueca well...with the due respect, I don't think that is some sort of representation whatsoever but the regional elections data give a more appropiate image of the situation. Also is important to restaure "not present at all" which is the case in -but not only- the Spanish speaking areas of the Land of Valencia. I believe concealing this information is quite misleading in this case.

Hi Mountolive, I removed those elements that I thought that they may confer an opinion. I must admit I was not aware of the Spanish-speaking comarques, in those cases, I might also add elements such as "not present at all" providing the referent, those comarques, is specified. I have included the fact about the actual political representation and explicitness when talking about ERPV, because there are supporters of the Catalan Countries idea which are not actually in ERPV, but in Bloc or even PSPV, or also no affiliated to any political party at all. In those latter cases, they may have a more cultural than political founding, or the political issues are put off because of strategical or political reasonings. Toniher 09:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Also, the reference to the Constitution clause and its unsupported, somewhat speculative reasoning, well, again with the due respect what seemed to be the rationale behind that clause was a possible federation of Navarre and the Basque Country, not the Catalan Countries case, for obvious reasons. I am for removing this part.

You may take a look at the fourth transitional provision of the Spanish Constitution, where Navarre and the Basque Autonomous Community are actually an exceptions to Chapter III. Toniher 09:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Finally, as for the Bacàvia thing, is good and I appreciate that you provided the quote, still, since that is a concept which by all accounts hasn't been successful and has been forgotten, I'd go and remove the whole line (including the Catalànic thing) because the only concept which has had some fortune is Catalan Countries. If you still think that these past alternatives are necessary, I don't think is a major issue and I wouldn't object if you want to leave them in place, but it may be interesting not to add what to me seems quite secondary info here.

Well, I only included it for sake of a historic account, I did not pretend to make it primary. Instead of removing it, which I regard that is against trying to build up an encyclopedic resource, I would contextualize it more, for instance stating that they were unsuccessful proposals. Toniher 09:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I would like to hear your opinion before editing. I try to be as good willed or impartial as possible, I dont have a doubt you will be also. Thanks.

Here you have. Thanks as well. Toniher 09:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Mountolive 04:30, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the Transitional Provision and the article in the Spanish constitution barring federation amongst Autonomous Communities clash. In other words, I still think that what the Constitutionalist had in mind at the time of issuing the legal impossibility of federating was Navarre and the Basque country because what the Transitional Provision is doing is allowing a merging between those two communities. Given the historical entity of Navarre and a so far majoritary rejection to this idea, then it was implemented the prohibition of a federation which would have allowed a de facto merging while formally respecting Navarrese institutions and autonomy. Anyway, since looks like neither you nor I can provide cold facts, I have reworded the sentece instead of removing it. I have removed indeed the allusion to the 23-F, which happened well after the Constitution was passed and so is out of place there.

I have restored the "very minoritaty" and "not present at all". I understand your concern about these conferring an opinion but, given the political support obtained (0,32% of the total votes) in this case is merely descriptive. I am against mentioning the Spanish speaking areas, for these are not the only ones: think for example of L'Alacantí, from a total population of say 500,000 the number of supporters of the Catalan Countries are how many? 1,000 at its best?

I have also reworded it in order to note that there are other smaller parties than ERPV which support this concept.

I have cut

In the 1980s, Josep Guia proposed in his book "És molt senzill, digueu-li Catalunya" (It's very easy, call it Catalonia) that independentists should prefer the term Catalonia for referring to the whole Catalan Countries as the latter might be too cumbersome and hence less encouraging. Nonetheless, in those very groups, Catalan Countries remain being the most preferred term. Guia's proposal is actually slightly more popular in English-written references than in Catalan ones.

because, as is stated, this proposal didn't get approval nor even the concerned groups. If we are to quote all of the unsuccesful steps of the debate, I think we are messing the article and making it lose its point. I agree with you with the Bacàvia thing: it was probably only misplaced in the article which made it look weird (I have placed it in what I believe is a more relevant context).

PS. Actually I am cutting

Whereas Joan Maragall and Francesc Cambó wrote about the "Greater Spain", Enric Prat de la Riba published his article "Greater Catalonia" in 1906, where he suggested the term "Catalunya Gran" for the whole Catalan Nation, taking as a model the Greater Britannia and the Commonwealth. However, that term soon got associated with Bismarck's Grossdeutschland and later with Nazism; because of all those imperialism connotations, many of its defenders preferred to abandon it.

for similar reasons.

PSS. Does the PSAN still exist or has informally merged into ERPV? do you know? (I see they maintain a website based in Barcelona but do you know if they have run recently in Valencian elecions?)

Hope you pretty much agree. Mountolive 17:36, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I won't disagree too much ;) In the future I might even contribute more about the history of the idea, and I feel it is a shame not to offer it to people who may be academically interested in this topic. So, maybe in a few months I will restore and improve those issues.

About ERPV representation facts, I agree, but consider what I have said about the transversalism of the idea (compassing all the cultural to political spectrum) beyond parties. This may be even shocking to me, but it's not somewhat only present in Valencian Country, but in other territories. Anyway, if I made any edit, I would try to provide some good references. On the other hand, despite Valencian Country is surely where the Catalan vs Spanish national ideological front is harsher, and so its interest, the discussion is too much centered on that territory and ignoring others, so that should be improved.

About the army, I think it is necessary to provide a context to readers in order they may understand why this statement, especially in those times, when certain military sectors even disagreed with the very new constitution. A link to 23-F in "military pressures" suffices.

About PSAN, it exists, but as far as I know, they have less support than in former times (because of splits and new groups emerging) and I do not think they will present in any elections. At most, they have partially supported, and might personally contribute to, electoral coalitions such as the Candidatures d'Unitat Popular.

Toniher 09:29, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

IN VALENCIA WE SPEAK VALENCIAN, NOT CATALAN.VALENCIAN LANGUAGE EVEN HAD A GOLDEN CENTURY, AND WAS THE FIRST LITERARY ROMANCE LANGUAGE. HOW DARE YOU REFUTE SUCH FACTS???

STICK YOUR CATALAN IMPERIALIST DREAMS UP YOUR ARSE. IT'S UNBELIEVABLE HOW RIDICULOUSLY  BIASED WIKIPEDIA IS, AND HOW IT HAS BEEN TAKEN OVER BY A BUNCH OF IDIOTS SPREADING LIES.

No!!

Hello British, American, Australian, Canadian and all the people who speak English and consult this article: This article this writing by Catalan nationalists and does not mark the true situation of Catalonia and Spain.

A greeting from Spain: Jluisrs

Article reflects true situation

I think it reflects well the true situation and the hostilities which some historical truths arouse. Small nations always have a bad time when interfacing with empires. In a recent poll made in Russia it came out that the biggest enemy of Russia was ... Latvia!

The Spanish empire and its supporters erased many languages, and obviously its spirit continues to do so by creating division and sowing discord. The fact that some people react rudely just confirms that truth hurts certain vested interests.

Isn't it true that general Franco forbid printing in Catalan and teaching Catalan in schools? Isn't it true that he hated the Catalan language and not only denied Catalan official status, but he even persecuted those who stuck to it?

Therefore the hurts carry on and are not near to be resolved. There is a struggle between those who want to allow Catalan to continue and those that would rather erase it for ever if they could, using whatever instrument at hand to do it. Most Valencians are willing istruments for the eventual erasing of their own tongue in the future. The Catalans come first, Valencians will not be spared later.

I do not where are you from, I hope that you are not a foreigner, because I would not want you to have this idea about the linguistic situation in Spain. You speak aobut Franco (Do you know that he died more than 30! years ago?). The spanish Constitution recognice all languages in Spain, they are official, used everywhere, even you can learn these languages in all the spanish universities (not only in Catalonia). The only linguistical hostility in Spain is that done by anti-spanish nationalists against the spanish language and spanish-speakers in Catalonia. There are a normal situation in Galicia, Valencia, Aragon, Asturias and so on. There are anothers languages in that places, but there are not conflicts, bacause they do not use the language as a weapon. The idea of "Catalan Countries" is against the valencians, that consider themselves valencians and spaniards, with a history and culture different from the Catalan one. Why is this not respected? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.223.24.67 (talk) 17:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

The only linguistical hostility ?

Can you, unsigning one, provide proof of the hostilities by anti-spanish nationalists? Small nations located between greater empires have always been accused of what you say. Do Spanish-speakers living in Catalonia or Valencia respect the local language? Can you provide proofs that they do? Can you prove that the Spanish state is innocent? You need to be reminded that Polish, Ukrainian and Lithuanian people were also accused of being "anti-Russian nationalists" and many died in the Gulag at the hands of Stalin. Your voice sounds so much like the Voice of the Empire. I know well that Franco is dead, but Franco's legacy is alive and well with your opinions!

I very much doubt that the Spanish (Castillian) language needs defending. It's preposterous! This is like the story of the wolf being mistreated by the lamb. Regarding the Valencians "suffering" at the hands of the Catalans, can you provide tangible proofs of all your accusations? Can you prove that The only linguistical hostility in Spain is that done by the smaller Catalonian nation against the greater Spanish state and its formidable linguistic legacy in the ex-Spanish colonies? Or is that only your own opinion?Mohonu 09:50, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Flag of Valencia Autonomo community.png

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BetacommandBot 05:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

For those who disagree or dislike this article

A message for those who disagree or dislike this article, being them Spanish nationalists or Valencians blaverists, please remember that your contributions on this talk page are not helping to improve its quality, but only expressing your own political points of view, and that's not the purpose of Wikipedia: Wikipedia is not a forum. Thank you. --Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

It is not an edit-war either...Should you need to take a look at this. Before giving advices to other users, you should better "Practice what you preach/Lead by example" ;) --Maurice27 (talk) 01:05, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry?

Are you trying to tell me how to behave?

Compare my block log [10] and yours [11], please.  :)

--Casaforra (parlem-ne) 14:33, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a difference... I don't preach anybody how to behave... See the difference? Eh? Do you see it? ;) --Maurice27 (talk) 17:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)