Talk:Catalan orthography

Translation requested

Per an anon, the Catalan wikipedia has some information that can be translated and added to this article. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

L·l or l·l

(someone needs to translate this into English)

Dreceres ràpides: navegació, cerca La ela geminada (l·l) és un dígraf del català que representa el so de la ela quan aquesta és pronunciada en dues síl·labes diferents.

Va ser formulat per en Pompeu Fabra sense que tingués tradició escrita anterior en català ni en cap altra llengua ni romànica ni de cap altre tipus, raó pel que seria motiu de polèmica. L'origen del punt tenia com a finalitat diferenciar el dígraf de ll que representa el so lateral palatal. El seu ús, però, es veu sobretot en aquelles paraules provinents del llatí que tenien el dígraf ll. En català, el so que representa no és exclusiu d'aquest dígraf sinó que, per exemple, també es troba en el dígraf tl en paraules com atleta.

La pronunciació del dígraf s'ha relaxat molt i s'han castellanitzat les paraules en què es feia servir tret del català balear, on és fort i característic, en el que anomenen parlar bleda, el fet de deixar de pronunciar-ho. Les secessionistes Normes del Puig rebutgen aquest dígraf, tot i que no és cert que en valencià no es pronunciï o almenys no menys que en el català oriental.

L'escriptura correcta d'aquest dígraf és la corresponent a l'ús del punt volat (·) entre les dues eles. Les escriptures l.l o l-l es consideren incorrectes. En informàtica, la manera correcta seria utilitzar el caràcter unicode corresponent, és a dir Ŀ (U+013F representat Ŀ en HTML) per a la majúscula i ŀ (U+0140 representat ŀ en HTML) per a la minúscula. Tot i això, la dificultat d'usar aquests caràcters fa que es prefereixi l'ús del caràcter · (U+00B7 representat · o · en HTML) entre dues eles. Sí que es considera incorrecte l'ús del caràcter • (U+2022 • o • en HTML) ja que es considera poc estètic i està reservat a la funció de separador de llistes.

Segons la normativa ortogràfica, en cas d'haver-se de dividir una paraula en dues línies diferents, el guionet es posa en substitució del punt.

Prose description of variations

I was looking at this article and what is missing (for someone who doesn't already know Catalan) is a description of the contexts in which a letter with two possible sounds. For example g and c are both given two sounds, but there is nothing here to say in which contexts they have which sound.

Also, there should be separate rows in the chart for c and ç (or an explanation as to why they are one), because these are orthographically distinct (or at least I assume they aren't interchangeable, although I don't speak Catalan). -Fenevad (talk) 11:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

You wanna give it a shot? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I would, but I really know nothing about Catalan, so it would be risky for me to do so. -Fenevad (talk) 11:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

<tll>

Is <tll>, as in the name Batlle, pronounced just [ʎ], as it is when borrowed into Castillian? — kwami (talk) 20:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I believe it is a geminated [ʎʎ]. For example, espatlla is pronounced [əsˈpaʎʎə]. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 21:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

As far as I remember, this information (along with another about pronouncing 'tl' in native words as geminated 'l') used to be part of this article, but someone has apparently removed it 89.231.123.40 (talk) 19:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorting

The article misses information often found in the description of alphabets of other languages: sorting order. Especially there should be information about how the mentioned diacritics are handled when sorting in catalan (acutes or graves first?) etc.

-- LinguistManiac (talk) 10:31, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

<ç> on the alphabet?

Catalan ce trencada is not part of the alphabet, it is just a modified letter, just as <à è é ò ó í ï ú ü ç>. No one says; A B C Ç D E F..., but A B C D E F.... Jaume (talk) 22:21, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

http://www2.iec.cat/institucio/seccions/Filologica/gramatica/default.asp

<ç> is not an alphabet letter in Catalan, but a modified letter with a cedilla mark.

There are also more digraphs; e.g. <ds>, <ts>, <ss>, <rr>, <gu>, <qu>.

Jaume (talk) 18:53, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Name of ce trencada

What is the Valencian pronunciation of the letter-name ce trencada. The article says /ˈse trenkadə/ (same as Eastern Catalan), but I would have expected it to be /ˈse trenkada/. --ABehrens (talk) 06:18, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, obviously. The Eastern schwa represented by orthographical ⟨a⟩ is supposed to correspond to an open central /a/ in Valencian (per Valencian, this can be somewhat complicated by vowel harmony, but the underlying phoneme would still be /a/, AFAIK). Sol505000 (talk) 07:58, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Other letter combinations

What is so significant about these that every possible combination of consonants has to be listed? Almost all of them are entirely predictable from the letters they are made up of. Rua (mew) 20:40, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Then remove them. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 03:42, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

@Nuvolet — Rua (mew) 14:10, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

They are extra letter combinations and digraphs, some of them are redundant due to their obvious pronunciation, but not all (like tll in bitllet with a silent t in Valencian and a long <ll> in Catalan). Our orthographies are not as irregular as French, but there are numerous exceptions like aquest becoming aquêt, the silent letters in final clusters (especially in plural), and the different graphs for /gz/: x, xh, cz, etc. What would you keep/improve and what would you delete? — Jɑuмe ^(dis-me) 15:56, 25 August 2021 (UTC)