Talk:Catherine (Benzoni novel)

Informal Review

Laramie1960 asked me to review this article and offer any suggestions for improvement. I'm a newby at WP and I have limited experience of the WP guidelines and no experience with articles about novels. My suggestions for improving the quality of the article are:

1. Rename the title to something that describes the whole series, for example: "Juliette Benzoni's 'Catherine' novels (1963-1979)"
2. Remove some of the text that describes the content of the books in detail, especially those based largely on 'Original Research' (for example the "Minor Characters" and some of the "main characters"). Keep plot summaries as concise as possible: what are the main events (historical and narrative). If WP readers are interested in the content of the book in any detail they can read the book itself or go to one of the external websites that provide additional information about the content, characters, etc. IMHO, this WP article should focus mainly on the extent to which independent reliable sources have found the book to be notable (and why). The quality of the article would be improved with more emphasis on the book series reception, publication history, reviews and success and (much) less detail on it's content/characters. It is relevant that it's a particular genre book (a romantic novel set in particular historical period/context) and short plot summaries tracing the storyline throughout the series is fine.Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction makes a distinction between 'real word perspective and 'in universe perspective'. This distinction is perhaps relevant to the book content summaries. Some of the content summaries seem to me to be from an 'in universe' perspective.
3. Following on from the previous point: I suggest editing the style of the summaries to make them more neutral/objective (and less in the style of the novel itself). For example: "growing up to be a rare beauty, with golden hair and violet eyes, Catherine meets a heavily wounded knight, the noble and valiant Arnaud, Michel de Montsalvy's younger brother. They fall in love at first sight, but when the impulsive Arnaud learns that Catherine is related to the family those Legoix's who butchered killed his older brother in 1413, his feelings for her change to hatred. He tells her that he only does not would kill her because she is if she were not a woman. Her beauty attracts many men, including Duke Philip the Good who desires the beautiful maiden,

Hope this helps, Mikemorrell49 (talk) 13:25, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Hi Mikemorrell49 I thank you for having had a look at my article. There is one point I like to mention and that is about the receiption of the book. As you may have seen the book was written back in France 1963. At that time, no Internet existed - not even the French Wikipedia article about this book series has more information! I am the only one who has a lot of that material. The author died almost two years ago and during the years I met her, she shared all she had with me - and not with the Press. But this is not Outlander or Game of Thrones where it is very easy to find material. Like I said, I am myself in possession of the original French articles and lucky enough of two English articles from 1964. The material we find nowadays about this author, is after 2003 and they talk about her other 79 books. You see my dilemma.

About the title, that was not my wish, it was changed by the a moderator. I would love to use a title like you suggest - but it is as I have seen the custom to call an article like that, the name of the book and then in brackets it has to say the year and novel.

I am waiting now for those experts in editing to correct the article. As I have already said, English is not my native language and that seems now to be a handycap here. Thanks again for your suggestions, Laramie1960 (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Comment about the deleted citing and links...

Hello Justlettersandnumbers I have seen that you deleted all references here on the Catherine (1963 novel) article and also the external link to the www.catherinedemontsalvy.ch site. Your remark It is just anyway just somebody's website, not a reliable source, is hard to accept! A site which was approved by the late author Benzoni and who shared many of her old souvenirs with that said website. Benzoni can even be heard with a welcome speech to the visitors of that website. The newspaper articles, photos and other rare material was given to share on that website, which is confirmed by creator of the site. I repeat once more, the first Bestseller of Juliette Benzoni was written in 1963 and at that time there existed no Internet, therefore that material can only be seen on that website and that is why I was forced to link so many times there. It already had been been very difficult to find other authentic material I can assure you.

The website dedicated to the author Benzoni, confirms that it got authentic rare material from Juliette Benzoni to do with it what was best to bring facts from her early career when she wrote the Catherine novels. The first evidence we get about this happens when we enter the site listening to the voice of the late Juliette Benzoni, welcoming the visitors. It is in French - should there be any doubts about the authenticity of her voice, there are on youbute and Ina.fr clips from other sources http://www.ina.fr/recherche/search?search=Juliette+Benzoni Also there is the English publishing house https://telos.co.uk/shop/romance/belle-catherine/ who started to re-issue the Catherine books in 2015. They trust that said website and even give a link to that non profit site and also mentions the website at the end of their published books.

What else can I say? What more evidence does it need to trust that site and return all the deleted links. Thank you for going again over the facts. I will appreciate it very much. Laramie1960 (talk) 14:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

"Deleted all references"? Not exactly, Laramie1960. What I mostly did was to remove all links to that website because it carries a large number of images of newspaper and magazine pages, book and DVD covers and the like, which we must assume are copyrighted by their various publishers, and so in violation of copyright. We don't and can't link to copyright violations per WP:LINKVIO. Where I could, I left the citation in place, with enough information to identify the actual source in question. I also removed a few references to the website itself, because it is somebody's personal website or fan-page, and so not a reliable source. WHOIS shows that the site is registered to one Linda Compagnoni; I can't see anything to suggest that that person is a notable literary critic or journalist (if she were, her website might be considered reliable for our purposes). If the owner of the site has explicit permission from the copyright holders of the various documents reproduced there, evidence of that permission can be sent to OTRS, and it may be possible to restore some or all of the links. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:48, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers I missed your messaged here and appologize. It is a fact that I should have studied more about the rules to references and links. I reproach myself for that... Fact is, it is a private website dedicated to the author Benzoni who shared her material with the owner of the site. It is also a non profit site and no harm intented - there is the disclaimer on the frontpage. I suppose that the author dedicated one of the books to Linda Compagnoni is not releveant? https://www.amazon.fr/Chim%C3%A8re-dor-Borgia-Juliette-BENZONI/dp/2259213928 Or that she is mentioned in an French article after Juliette Benzoni died? Unfortunately the publishing house Editions Trévise (where most newspaper clippings come from) does not exist anymore, I checked that on the French Wikipedia. The founder Paul Winkler of Trévise Editions (Opéra Mundi) died years ago. The newspaper France-Soir who had published 1962 the Catherine story as a cliffhanger - does also not exist anymore. The fact remains that said material never showed up on the Internet. Remember, no internet in the sixties where a journalist could have listed that or used it for an article. It is a dilemma - if that private non profit site cannot be used as a verified source. I had no idea that material would give any issues with the rules on Wikipedia. I do understand now why you did delete many of the links. I hope we can find a good solution, to share a bit of that material on Wikipedia. Maybe there exist an exceptions or compromise in a case like that? One question, could at least been given a link to the website to this article - lets say as: website dedicated to the Catherine books? And one important question: do the rules appeal also to this article on this page, about me knowing the author, or was that for the Biography article only? Looking forward to your answers, thanks Laramie1960 (talk) 16:11, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

No problem, Laramie1960. Just quickly:

• We don't require that all references have a live internet link; what we do require is that the source must be identifiable. So for, say, a page in France-Soir, we need the exact date and the page number, so that if someone really wants to check it they can go to the library and look it up. We call this verifiability.
• There's nothing intrinsically wrong with a private fan-site created by a private individual – indeed, sometimes they can be very useful – and nor did I ever intend to suggest that there was. What such a site can not be is a reliable source by Wikipedia standards; in this particular case, as I think you now understand, there was also a copyright problem (a very common problem, by the way).
• Our guidance on editing on topics where you have a close connection is just that – guidance; I suggest (but no-one can insist) that from now on you stick to the talk-page of all articles connected with Benzoni. I'll put a note on how to do that here, on this page.
• You should not add a link to that website to any article, for just the same reason; but someone else might choose to do so at some point.

Happy editing! Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 16:44, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Alexandre Dumas Prix 1973

Justlettersandnumbers I do not know if I can ping you everytime I find a good reliable source about the Caterine novels or the author? I suppose if I add a new topic here, it will only be noticed should someone per chance click on the Talk page: Catherine (1963 novel) At the same time I am not sure you will want that I contact you now all the time. Can there be added here a kind of an alert?

I have started this morning with my re-search. The first hard nut to crack was now the Prix Alexandre Dumas.

• There exists an official video clip on Ina.fr where Benzoni is invited and we learn that she won the Prize in 1973 for her work on the Catherine and Marianne books. Benzoni mentions the prize in the "Magazine litteraire no.412 : alexandre dumas 200 ans apres". https://www.gallimardmontreal.com/catalogue/livre/magazine-litteraire-no-412-alexandre-dumas-200-ans-apres-2085895000975 We find the article in that special edition (106 pages), where Benzoni had been invited to write " Why I love Alexandre Dumas, on page 37.

Yet I am sure I found what Wikipedia would call a great reliable source. Le Monde Archives Echos et Nouvelles, LE MONDE | 12.04.1973 à 00h00 • Mis à jour le 12.04.1973 à 00h00 http://www.lemonde.fr/archives/article/1973/04/12/echos-et-nouvelles_2543532_1819218.html?xtmc=benzoni_juliette&xtcr=19 There can also be found

• There can also be found a confirmation on Google: https://www.google.ch/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=+prix+Alexandre+Dumas+1973+ Foreign Literary Prizes, Romance and Germanic Languages - Page 60. Thanks for adding the best citation on the second reference, which is empty. Looking forward to your answer Laramie1960 (talk) 13:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Laramie1960, you can of course ping me whenever you like; however, to get changes made to the article you may prefer to use the method described below. The first step here seems to be to establish whether the prize exists or has ever existed, and if so where, when and by whom it was awarded – and then if it is in any way notable. I'm not encouraged by the complete absence of any mention of it in fr.wp – no mention, for example, in this fairly comprehensive list, nor indeed in the equivalent list here. Nor is the press coverage (three hits on Google News) enough to confirm notability. One possible explanation is that it is more commonly known by a different name. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:52, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers I understand your point of you. Voilà, fr.wp does not give any source because it is missing in the list of literary awards. The French Users who contributed on 12 juin 2009 à 20:40 (I went through all entries on that article on fr.wp until I found it) to the French article, could probably at that time not find any proof of it. You can believe me, nine years ago we could not find so much information about Benzoni. It was the private websites who were able to share never seen material and information online. By the way, the Prix Alexandre Dumas is not to be confounded with the Trophée Alexandre Dumas, which was founded a year later by Juliette Benzoni, with the help of the Asscociation des amis d'Alexandre Dumas, whose member she also was.

It was the Association des amis d'Alexandre Dumas https://amisdumas.com/qui-sommes-nous/ who founded the Prix de Alexandre Dumas. One of the members was the acclaimed historian Alain Decaux who was a great admirer of Benzoni, he wrote a foreword in her book "Par le fer et le Poison" 1973 , he talks precisely about the Catherine novels (right on top of that article here. https://www.juliette-benzoni-tribute.ch/fr/preface-notes/dedicace-notes.htm I know, no link to an article, but there we can all read it. It is in French.

As we we learn from that article in Le Monde, the prix was founded in 1972 and Benzoni won in 1973. In the video clip from Ina.fr official site http://www.ina.fr/pages-statiques/mentions-legales the journalist talks with Juliette about the Prix Alexandre Dumas that she won.

I thought it was important to mention the Prix Alexandre Dumas in the Catherine (1963 novel) article, because she won precisely for that series (and the Marianne series) that award. I suppose if a User did add this information now on that list of Literary awards, we would win the battle so to say. Maybe a French User could do that? Hope my explanations brought light into this matter. Fact is, she did have that prix at home as is stated in that article she wrote for the hundred anniversary of Alexandre Dumas. Laramie1960 (talk) 18:07, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Conflict of interest

At least one major contributor to this article appears to have a close personal or professional connection to the topic, and thus to have a conflict of interest. Conflict-of-interest editors are strongly discouraged from editing the article directly, but are always welcome to propose changes on the talk page (i.e., here). You can attract the attention of other editors by putting {{request edit}} (exactly so, with the curly parentheses) at the beginning of your request, or by clicking the link on the lowest yellow notice above. Requests that are not supported by independent reliable sources are unlikely to be accepted. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:20, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

~Editing the article Catherine (1963 novel)

Hi Tribe of Tiger and Curdle You have been doing such a great editing job with the Benzoni article :-) that I wanted to propose (if you do not mind) and you find the time of course, to do the same also on this article and also on the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_(1986_TV_series)? I am sure it will get a better rating afterwards. I will support you with all I know about the subject. Thanks very much for considering it. Laramie1960 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 10:16, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• La belle Catherine 1967 by Juliette Benzoni.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 12:36, 3 June 2022 (UTC)