Talk:Caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst

Nature article

The article by Aubert et al. in Nature lists the caves as:
1, Leang Barugayya 2;
2, Leang Barugayya 1;
3, Gua Jing;
4, Leang Bulu Bettue;
5, Leang Sampeang;
6, Leang Timpuseng;
7, Leang Burung 2;
8, Leang Lompoa;
9, Leang Jarie.
Gua Jing and Leang Barugayya 1 and 2 are separate cave sites interconnected by a system of phreatic passages.

Is one of these the Pettakere cave? Aa77zz (talk) 21:48, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

NO! The designation is simply wrong. The oldest Art was found in Leang Timpuseng. So the whole article needs correction and a new name. According to Aubert ( I emailed with him) the desgnation could be "The caves in the district of Maros". I corrected it in the German Wikipedia. 21:32, 11 January 2017 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr. bobby (talk • contribs)

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The new name of this page seems not to be useful

@ Masjawad99: It seems do be not useful, to rename the whole article. It was and should be about the caves in the district of Maros. It is not about the caves in Pangkep. If it is useful than start a new page on them. Such big changes should be discussed at first. Please rework ALL of your changes. Also, there is no hint to Pangkep in the whole article. Mr. bobby (talk) 17:48, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

I agree with this assessment.--BabbaQ (talk) 00:14, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Mr. bobby and BabbaQ: Thanks for the reminder. My justification is that the caves in Pangkep are really part of the same limestone cave system as those in Maros (which are located close to the border with Pangkep anyway), and that at least 12 sites in Pangkep side of the karst area also exhibit prehistoric artworks. There are about 230 caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst area as a whole, and at least 80 of them exhibit prehistoric artworks. The UNESCO WH tentative proposal cited in the article also covers caves in both regions, not only those in Maros. Unless this page is reserved for a specific designated site (e.g. Leang-Leang Prehistoric Park, which formally only covers several caves), I see no reason not to include caves outside the political boundary of Maros. Also, "district" is kind of a misnomer, as Indonesian kabupatens are usually referred to as "regencies" in English. Regardless, I admit that I should've not do any big change pending a discussion whether the article should inclusively cover all caves in the karst area or just caves in Maros (I was just trying to be bold, but that was a bit too far I guess LOL). Either way, I think the article needs to be updated with a listing of the caves to clarify which caves are covered. Related issue: should the article covers all limestone caves indiscriminately, or only those with prehistoric paintings? Also, I'm not sure what to do with the infobox; since it only covers Pettakere (which is only one out of the 80/230), should it be modified to be more inclusive, or should it just be deleted? Masjawad99^💬 03:46, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Btw, this publication (PDF warning) might be useful, look up pages 44-46 for a list of caves in Maros-Pangkep karst area. According to this document though, only 41 are designated as "prehistoric caves". This doesn't mean that the others do not possibly contain prehistoric remains; it just means that none of the rest are formally recognized as "prehistoric caves" by the government. Masjawad99^💬 04:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I had the information on the name directly from Aubert, the scientist who is cited here. He told me exactly the name "Caves in the district of Maros". I do not know if there is another official name of the area. Either way, it sounds strange, that the caves get the name of two towns - and not just of one town. If there are two cave ensembles, then we should make articles for both. It is not ok, if the name is an invention of yourself, only because you want to show that there are many painted caves in a nearby area. Wether your choice used the offical name (show that!), than wie stick to ist. Wether it is an invention, we have to use the old name and you can write another article on the other caves. Such changes should discussed befor any changes. At the moment the article is a mess. No hint to anything what might be called Pangkep - except the name itself. This is simply confusing. Some of these findigs are reallx important. So we should not confuse any reader with (false) names. Mr. bobby (talk) 10:38, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

The pdf is in Indonesian language. I cannot figure out if the designation "SISTEM HIDROLOGI PERGUAAN KARST MAROS -PANGKEP" delivers the correct name of the mentioned painted caves. It is you work to show that. You rename without showing properly why you really do that. Mr. bobby (talk) 10:43, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

The closest "official" designation for the group of sites that I can cite is "Prehistoric cave sites in Maros-Pangkep" which is the name that the WH submission uses. That said, I can definitely understand that "Caves in Maros and Pangkep" could be considered a neologism. In that case, I guess we should move the page back to "Caves in the district of Maros" for now. Masjawad99^💬 11:57, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, "Sistem Hidrologi Perguaan Karst Maros-Pangkep" just means "the Maros-Pangkep Karst Hydrology Systems" which is more about the nature of the cave systems rather than relating to their cultural importance. I brought that up just to refer to the complete list of caves in the area, but for a list of caves with prehistoric remains, the only publication I can find is "Daftar Gua Prasejarah Kabupaten Maros dan Pangkep [List of Prehistoric Caves in Maros and Pangkep Regencies]" published in 2003 by the goverment agency Balai Pelestarian Peninggalan Purbakala, which I cannot find a copy of. Masjawad99^💬 12:10, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Masjawad99: Thanks for removing the name. Well, some questions:

• Is "Maros-Pangkep karst" an official designation? Or just your name for the region? (I could not find Pangkep on google maps...)
• Are there new important findings in the region Pangkep? If you have information on important caves with especially very old (paleolithic) paintings inside of caves near Pangkep, then you may write an WP-article on these.

A list of the caves of inportant caves (in both regions) might be useful if it is not too long.Mr. bobby (talk) 17:09, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

@Mr. bobby: Sorry for the late reply, I didn't get notified of your mention. You may want to use Template:Reply to or Template:User link so that I get a notification of your mention.

• I am not aware of any official designation, but the term "Maros-Pangkep karsts" or "Maros-Pangkep karst area" is in common use for the karst region in the southwestern part of the province of South Sulawesi (as opposed to the separate Bone karst region in the eastern part of the peninsula). Aubert et al also use the hyphenated term here and here. The karst area itself is around 400 km2 large, which makes it one of the largest karst areas in Indonesia. Half of the karst area are included within the Bantimurung-Bulusaraung National Park. Btw, I just noticed that the list of karst areas article mentions it as "Rammang-Rammang", but the term is definitely far less commonly used than "Maros-Pangkep". Regarding Google Maps, it often displays erroneous and unreliable informations regarding places in Indonesia (I once found a funny error where Bali's coastline is labeled as part of a river). That said, for reference, this is Pangkep, and this is Maros. Not that there are two Maros, Maros the town (which has actually been renamed to Turikale in 2011) and Maros the regency. The caves and karst area are located inside the Maros regency, but not within the town.
• To my knowledge most of the findings in Pangkep haven't been dated properly, but the one that Aubert et al 2019 reported to contain the oldest figurative painting, Leang Bulu' Sipong 4, is located in Pangkep. Sometimes surveys in the Maros-Pangkep karsts also do not specify whether a prehistoric finding was made in the Maros or Pangkep side, as many of the caves are located near the border. The reason why caves in Maros side are given more attention is simply because they are located next to a major highway, and thus easier to reach from the provincial capital of Makassar. That said, I guess we still have to wait until we have a better understanding of the region's prehistory as a large number of sites haven't really been properly explored (even Leang Bulu' Sipong 4 has only been recently discovered in December 2017). Though, perhaps, an article should be made for the karst area, because it is definitely notable enough. A parallel of Maros-Pangkep karst area in other part of Indonesia is the Sangkulirang-Mangkalihat karst, which also contains prehistoric sites; among others the Lubang Jeriji Saleh. Masjawad99^💬 23:26, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I think a point that needs to be made is that you have all the right intentions Masjawad99. But that every Move of an articles name needs to be discussed before the move is made. Ao we don’t get these kind of ”after the fact” situations.BabbaQ (talk) 00:45, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, there is obviously a giant karst region in Sulawesi. I do not know if it is handled as one region by, lets say, geographical authors. So it is useful to have the proper designations. I would suggest to keep the chosen name until a better solution is at hand. If there is important information of definitely old paintings in caves NOT in the karst of the Maros destrict one should start a new article and call the according cave system "caves in the destrict of x" (f.i. Pankep) or "near x". This way the reader would get all the information he needs. Mr. bobby (talk) 01:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

@Mr. bobby: Maros-Pangkep is indeed treated as a single ecological region, separate from the Bone karst region further east, as I noted above. There are other smaller distinct karst areas in Sulawesi, but they are not in any way treated as a single system. As for a new article on Pangkep caves, I think I'll try to read through the literature first. @BabbaQ: Yeah, definitely, I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for reminding me :) Masjawad99^💬 02:07, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

@Masjawad99:I emailed again with Aubert. He wrote: "In 2014 we dated cave art in Maros and in our latest paper we dated some in Pangkep. These 2 administrative districts are next to each other are in the same karst system. We refer to it as the Maros/Pangkep karst and we have identified over 300 caves with paintings within it."

So Masjawad99 was right. We have to find a new article name with a correct designation. I found the following UNESCO page: https://whc.unesco.org/en/tentativelists/5467/

They write about the "Prehistoric Cave Sites in Maros-Pangkep". Or "caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst" (my suggestion). Which name is adequate? I'd like to have some english native speakers discussing that. Mr. bobby (talk) 20:23, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

@Mr. bobby: I think using the qualifier "prehistoric" would exclude the possibility that some of the rock art are more recent. "Caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst" seems good, and it also clarifies that they are part of the same karst system. Another designation that might be possible is "Rock art of (or in) the Maros-Pangkep karst" paralleling the article names of similar sites in Spain, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, etc (but this name might also be too exclusive as there are more prehistoric remains other than Rock art in these caves). Masjawad99^💬 20:44, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd prefer "Caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst". Any painted cave here could be mentioned. If it is paleolithic, one can tell that. This fits - to my mind - to the "Chauvet cave" and similar sites. If there is a very special cave it can have a separated article with links to "Caves in the Maros-Pankep karst". But let's hear other voices...Mr. bobby (talk) 22:42, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Or we might split up the content oft the article. One aspect is "The caves of the Maros-Pangkep karst", the other "Cave art of Sulawesi". (or: Rock art, Paleolitic art). Mr. bobby (talk) 11:52, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

"Cave art of Sulawesi" is a rather arbitrary delineation, since there are more cave art sites in Sulawesi outside the Maros-Pangkep karst, for example those in Southeast Sulawesi (many are still undated though), which are quite separate from those in Maros-Pangkep karst and are presumably much younger, so I don't know if it is appropriate to lump them together into an article. If we want to separate the article about the caves from the cave art, I suggest including the content about the caves (physical description etc) in the article about the karst itself. Masjawad99^💬 15:38, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Finding good names is not easy...What about splitting into "Maros-Pangkep karst" and "Paleolithic Art of Sulawesi" (the latter allows everybody to collect ancient art of this interesting region and give information in WP... (Also "Paleolithic cave art of Sulawesi" ?) Maybe we need third opinion. Mr. bobby (talk) 17:05, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Well, I would choose the name "Caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst". Any objections? Mr. bobby (talk) 11:57, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm okay with "Caves in the Maros-Pangkep karst". Masjawad99^💬 05:56, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

so i moved the page. you were quite right in changing the name. best, Mr. bobby (talk) 18:31, 10 January 2020 (UTC)