Talk:Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh

Pronunciation of name

The following has been merged from previously separate sections to keep this discussion in one place.

Pronunciation template

Sticking a template onto an article without discussing it first is not really on! Non-standard pronunciation - is it just the name, or are there other instances? If just the name, how hard would it have been to put in the IPA pronunciation yourself, or to ask an Irish speaker if you're not one yourself?
Scolaire 14:43, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I've done it now. It was intended as much as a reminder to myself as to anyone else who had the time. Would it have taken you longer to add IPA than leaving me that friendly message did?--Dub8lad1 21:27, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Very definitely! I looked up IPA and I couldn't make head nor tail of it. Thank you for coming back and doing it. I was just afraid the template was going to sit there indefinitely. Scolaire 17:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the tag since the IPA has been done, apparently. And Scolaire, as somebody who does a fair amount of the IPA transcription chores, let me assure you that it is perfectly normal for the IPA tag to be inserted, and it is no reflection on the article or on the inserter. And no discussion is required either!!! The tag's presence causes the article to appear on a list of IPA transcriptions to be done [[1]], which is checked regularly by people with knowledge and interest in IPA, who will then come and do it if they can. Like I did. --Slp1 18:58, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Apologies all around, then! I didn't realise that inserting the template actually put the article on a list. I need to learn a bit more and shoot my mouth off a bit less! It was me that moved the template to the talk page btw, thereby adding to the confusion. Apologies again. Scolaire 19:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

No problemo! This place is confusing at times! --Slp1 16:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation – again

I've flagged Ó Dálaigh's name for IPA cleanup. It had been given as IPA: ['caɾˠwaɫ̪ o: 'dˠa:ɫ̪i] but his first name is more like "karool". Can someone fix this? Thanks.
Ian Cheese (talk) 23:22, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and the surname is more like "dawla". Ian Cheese (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

The fact is that there is no "official" pronunciation of any Irish name. It varies from one province to another in a way that English names in Britain or America do not. An Irish speaker would often not even take account of how a public figure pronounces his own name, but would just pronounce it his way. So, for instance, I would say "karool" while others would say "carroll"; I would say "o dawly" while others would say "o dawla" or even "o dahla". Any IPA you put up will probably be correct, but don't be too shocked if somebody changes it again down the line. Scolaire (talk) 07:24, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but there is no way that IPA: ['caɾˠwaɫ̪] ("carwal") is correct. Ian Cheese (talk) 09:59, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree. The bh is indeed pronounced w in some areas, though I forget where. "Carwal" would work for me, or even "carrawal". Scolaire (talk) 11:14, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, didn't realise that. I might put in a selection! Ian Cheese (talk) 22:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

In the case of personal names only the person's own pronunciation is normally used in those Wikipedia articles e.g. George Everest, who gave his name to Mount Everest, pronounced his name eev-rist as opposed to ev-rist or ever-ist as the mountain is known nowadays. However I learned from this discussion page that Irish names do not have an official pronunciation which is a similar case to some English place names e.g. Salisbury and Newcastle Upon Tyne. In the articles to those places the official (if there is one) or local pronunciation is used first followed by other common pronunciations. If Ó Dálaigh's pronunciation of his own name is known maybe that should be used in the article. In the video from Irish language TV station TG4, Uachtaráin,5,Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh, President of Ireland, Stair na hÉireann,TG4, I found on You Tube when I tried to learn how pronounce the name the pronunciation ka-rule oh daw-lə is heard about 40 seconds into the video. If this is different to Ó Dálaigh's own pronunciation maybe this can be used second followed by other common pronunciations if it is appropriate to use more than one pronunciation to avoid confusing readers unfamiliar with the dispute. Does anyone have any ideas on this? Tk420 (talk) 20:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

I have since seen the You Tube video in full. In an interview about eleven minutes in Ó Dálaigh pronounced his own surname Oh Daw-lə. He must have stressed the last syllable to compare it with Teachta Dála. I have not been able to find his own pronunciation of his first name. The most common pronunciation of Cearbhall among those who knew him appeared to be Ka-rule with the primary stress on the first or second syllable depending on the speaker. The TG4 narrator appeared to stress the first syllable of the first name. Does anyone know if TG4 narrators use a standard accent? If so I would go with their pronunciation unless Ó Dálaigh's own pronunciation is known. The problem is I am not confident in IPA for English let alone IPA for other languages so if you could please correct me if I make any errors. Tk420 (talk) 20:19, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

Upon seeing the video, which is now on a different You Tube channel, again I have noticed a scene about three minutes in which Ó Dálaigh is heard speaking Irish. According to the English subtitles he said 'I was named Cearbhall' and I hear the pronunciation as ka-rule with the stress on the second syllable. I also learned from seeing it again that the voice at the beginning is not a narrator but from a recording of his inauguration.Tk420 (talk) 22:07, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Fine Gael Bias in this Article

You can see the paws of FG supporters throughout this piece. What sources are there for O Dálaigh's (sic) "political naivete" (sic) and (sic) "alleged mental breakdown" (sic) other than hearsay? Under the Constitution he had the right to refer the bill to the Supreme Court. Douglas Hyde referred the 1939 Offences Against the State Amendment Act to the Supreme Court. Despite the fact that The Emergency had started he was not insulted out of office by the Fianna Fáil Government. They accepted he had the right to do so. Despite FG and Labour agreeing to appoint O Dálaigh along with FF to the vacancy there remained some lingering suspicion of him due to his past FF connections as witnessed by Cosgrave refusing to regularly brief him. I resent the recent attempt begun in late 2006 of people trying to portray a principled man as a wide-eyed innocent and on the verge of a breakdown. To not refer such bill to the Supreme Court would have made a mockery of the man's distinguished legal career. Generalissimo1 11:35, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Also to appear to insinuate that the President was responsible for the decision of the Provos to murder Garda Clerkin is frankly despicable. Generalissimo1 11:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Contradiction

The text says he was born in Bray, but the infobox says Dublin. Which is correct? Stifle (talk) 20:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Death and assessment and neutrality

I think that overall this article is rather poor and lacks sources. But being a foreigner I know very little about Irish politics so there is little that I can do. But I do feel that almost all of the Death and assessment section should be removed. It contains a lot of unsourced claims that makes Cearbhall Ó Dálaigh look like a fool. Throwing in accusations about him being "a radical maverick" and "politically naïve" sounds not NPOV.

I feel tempted to go ahead and do it immediately but others should of course have a chance to express their views about the subject. Does anybody have any suggestions? J-C V (talk) 02:46, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

That section was in the original article [2] written back in 2002 when WP was a quite different place, and expressing personal opinions (often scathing) was the norm. I agree with you that the whole "assessment" should be taken out as unsourced, and then if somebody can find a proper assessment in a reliable source it could be replace with something worthwhile. I agree with you also that the whole article is poor. It could do with a radical pruning. Scolaire (talk) 07:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your views. I'm removing the whole section, except for the mention of date of death and the place where he was buried. Much of this section is "unsourcable". How can one find sources proving that a person was naive? J-C V (talk) 14:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

President of Ireland and Neutrality

More Naïvete and mixing of languages in this section. I have taken it out as unsourced. I have also edited the account of the "thundering disgrace" incident: firstly, a diatribe by journalist Jim Duffy is not a reliable source; secondly, "recent documents" did not indicate it was "rather about the actions of the president" - that was a gloss by the far from impartial Paddy Cooney on television thirty years later - the Minister's words were "in my opinion he is a thundering disgrace"; and finally, there was a good deal that was plain irrelevant. Scolaire (talk) 12:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

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