Talk:Cem (river)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Name

Although Cem is a small river, its basin is of tremendous value in terms of its biodiversity. I have tried to make that as pronounced as possible in the article. Cem is also threatened by all governments in the region who want to see it destroyed for the sake of energy production for big companies. I never gave it much thought whether the Slavic version of the name should be called Montenegrin or Serbian, but for the sake of the reality of self-determination and official status I chose to include the Montenegrin name. Few people in the Cem river basin name themselves Serbs near Podgorica, many more call themselves Bosniaks. I didn't include Serbian when writing this because it has no official status and is not part of the way people identify themselves. I also didn't add Bosniak as a designation because its a small minority compared to those who identify as Montenegrins and didn't want to cluster the lead with alternative designations for the same name. Instead, in the name section I've used Cijevna comes from Serbo-Croatian cijev. Isn't that enough? @N.Hoxha:@Sadko:--Maleschreiber (talk) 19:04, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, it's good enough. N.Hoxha (talk) 19:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Not at all. We clearly disagree. It makes no sense to count down the percent of ethnic groups living near the river and make personal decision based on that. I am failing to see that "reality of self-determination" as the majority of citizens of MNE speak Serbian. The historical language of MNE is Serbian (do check with Petar II Petrović-Njegoš and his ancestors as well). If you want to be completely neutral Serbo-Croatian is one option and it would cover Bosnian, Montenegrin and Serbian, 3in1. Another option is Serbian and Montengrin. cheers, Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 22:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian is mentioned in the historical context of the etymology of Cijevna. I even added In Montenegrin, Bosniak and Serbian it is known as Cijevna in the name section. The specific standard of Serbo-Croatian used as the official language in the Cem/Cijevna basin is the Montenegrin one, which is also recognized by most of the Slavic-speakers of the area as their language. If were talking about Ribnica, it would be okay for a Serbian Cyrillic name in the lead because many people in the Ribnica basin do consider themselves Serbs. That is not the case here.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:40, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

So we should be nit-picking based on the last census, even though it is the same language>? I am not for that, it seems like nationalistic approach in my book an I am failing to see it an an argument and it is not the practice on Wiki, because we are not talking about a city or municipality where there are official languages. It remains an open question. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 01:10, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not nit-picking man. I'm just going with how the state (for the sake of WP:MOS and no other reason) and the people (what matters to me) want to call the language. It is the sort of the same language (a pluricentric one), but you would (rightly) object if I added Montenegrin Cyrillic in Kraljevo, wouldn't you? Although it is the same language. So, language has a political aspect and its name depends on the self-determination of its speakers. --Maleschreiber (talk) 01:36, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Serbian is not the national language of Montenegro, Montenegrin is. Therefore your recent attempt of trying to push Serbian in the ledes of articles about Montenegro's regions where Serbs don't even make up 15% of the population are not only unfounded but are clear examples of distributive behavior. I will ask you to self revert yourself on those articles. According to Montenegro's constitution, which is in accordance with the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, 'minority' languages are only used officially in regions where those minorities make up at least 15% of the local population. Other than that there is not much more to be said that wasn't already stated by Maleschreiber, the river flows through Albania and Montenegro and not through Serbia. What I would personally consider to be a 'nationalistic approach' is trying to diminish the existence of the Montenegrin people as a separate ethnic group and to deny their language to be considered a separate branch of Serbo-Croatian. N.Hoxha (talk) 01:59, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

You are confused. The national and historical language are not one and the same. Reliable sources speak for this. Weak slurs and accusations outside (you disqualify yourself with them and are no longer taken seriously), it can not be "disruptive" as the majority of population speaks the language. It is only - inclusive, which is a lovely European value. :) I do not know an ethnic group which has 30% of the population (and more) and that is "a minority". In fact, there is no major ethnic group in MNE (over 50%). All of that aside I still see no arguments for not including Serbian language in the lead. Not enough Serbs live by the river and that is why we will ignore the fact that the majority of the country speaks the language, how can that be serious? Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 11:15, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

I have already stated the reasons why it shouldn’t be mentioned, in fact your reasoning isn’t convincing and your ‘arguments’ are not sufficient. Calling someone confused because of your own inabillity to counterargument doesn’t portray yourself in a high manner. The discussion of whereas “Serbian” should also be placed in the ledes of Montengro related articles is a highly controversial topic as it direcltly impedes on the right of self-determination of a certain ethnic population. This conversation should first be discussed by multiple administrators and other users and reach consensus. It’s certenaly not your call to make such serious decisions all by yourself. I have not omitted any slurs towards you, if you are unable to differentiate civil discussions from slurs you might reconsider your ability to contribute in a credible way on this website. You seem to be aware of the crisis situation in Montenegro, since you have edited that article multiple times, yet you chose to deliberetly put “Serbian” in the ledes of multiple Montenegro related articles and called such distributive edits “small tweaks and NPOV”. I will ask you a last time to self-revert yourself on those articles. The respect of the rule of law of a country which is in accordance with human rights is also a lovely European value :) N.Hoxha (talk) 13:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Saying that someone might be or is confused is not a slur, once again - overreaction. Most of those municipalities have more than 15% of Serbs, which per Montenegrin law gives it - official status. The crisis has been made by the government and it has nothing to do with the fact that Serbian language is historically spoken in Montenegro and that it's dominant in the country, the same way Romanian is spoken in Moldova or German is in Austria etc. Pointing fingers at other editors is leading nowhere. I might have copied it to one or two articles where it should not be placed, but that has been fixed and I see no probem with that. On the other hand, what we have here is a river, not a city and therefore that logic is irrelevant. I have presented other alternatives. You can choose to ignore it and continue with Wikipedia:I just don't like it but this issue will remain. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 13:35, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

• Sadko, this is not Plužine Municipality. A river and its culture has to do with its river basin and the shared history of the people who live there. The Cem river basin was never part of Serbia (it became part of Yugoslavia in 1919 when the border was finalized) and Slavic-speaking people started to come there only after 1945 as workers in a factory that Podgorica built there. A few of those today call themselves Serbs. Most call themselves Bosniaks and some Montenegrins. The official language of the municipality and the state is also Montenegrin.-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maleschreiber (talk • contribs) 16:04, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

It was part of Kingdom of Serbia for a few days, before it became YU. That is irrelevant, as Serbian is spoken in many countries outside Serbia, and all or most of works produced in Montenegro, until the local Government created the new language, were written in Serbian. It is official, but it is not dominant. It is not recognized by US either. As far as I am concerned - Bosniak and Serbian can both be included in the lead. The current version is discriminatory towards other languages and ethnic groups, and I am not talking only about this article. Sadkσ (talk is cheap) 16:55, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh come on, you know that you can't invoke it was part of Serbia for a few days as an argument. It's not an issue of bureaucratic control. Isn't it the choice of the people of Tuzi or Mahalla to feel discriminated against? People are the carriers of languages. I support adding Serbian in Plužine because 2/3 choose the political-social-national identity of being Serb.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:18, 29 March 2020 (UTC)