Talk:Center for Talented Youth/Archive 1

Erm, the external links to the passion fruit and Canon and such don't work anymore. We either need a subsection or wikipedia article on those, or we should find some links that work. --TD Mak 02:29 August 26, 2005 (EST)

Ok, can someone please rewrite the article under CTY Culture? I've never been to CTY; I've just investigated the program thoroughly in an attempt to persuade my parents to let me enter the program (thus explaiing why I added info). However, it's a bit different from the culture at CTY, which deserves its own special category. -Simfish 04:37, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Cult Like

I think someone should clean up the culture section, i have not attended CTY but some of my friends have and the way this article portrays it, it sounds more like a nerd cult than a summer camp. --GBVrallyCI 03:27, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Much of the culture has been elevated to a cult-like status though. The Alcove of Lancaster is very much like a cult. The difference is that it is not exclusive; we are a very welcoming bunch. -Moonstone 22:47, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

I know of very few cults that are accused of being unwelcoming, actually... 24.136.38.121 23:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense?

Here are the parts that were deleted as nonsense, with removed parts italicized. Could any CTYers confirm or refute these, especially the chant during "American Pie"? Also, the 1991 and 1993 events are way before my time (one session in 1997). I know they do look like nonsense, but putting a bunch of gifted kids in one place does lead to some strange traditions and happenings. --Christopherlin 07:58, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I can confirm the chants, I went to lan.02.06, it's right. live die sex more orgy.

"orgy" is pretty much a lancaster tradition. if you say that in skidmore (at least in 06.1), people (mostly nevermores) shout 'f*** that lancaster sh**' at the offender.

CTY culture

Many CTY sites are home to their own unique traditions; however, the one shared by all the sites is the playing of the song "American Pie" at the end of a dance. In general, this involves a special dance which also includes appending a chant of "die, die, die, die, live, live, live, live, sex, sex, sex, war, war, war, war" to the end of the chorus. Some sites, including Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, PA, Dickinson College, and Saratoga Springs in NY have a special list of songs that are played at every dance. This list is known as the Canon.

There has long been animosity between ballerinas, known as "rinas" (female) or "rhinos" (male) of the Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet Association and CTY students at Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, and Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs, New York.

CTY scandals

One of the downsides to the CTY program has to do with the controversial association between brilliance and mental illness; put enough talented children in one place and at least one will do something crazy.

There was reportedly a suicide at the Saratoga Springs site in 1991, and a scandal involving nutmeg overdoses at the Los Angeles site in 1993.

I can confirm the American Pie chant, at least at F&M, 1993-1996. I was there as a CTY student. I believe the chant was slightly different, though: we only said three "die"s, as Don McLean said the first one for us. And I think we said "more" instead of "war". There were four "sex"s, too. There were many more responses that got shouted throughout the rest of the song as well.

As for the scandals, I don't remember hearing about those two. But yes, all those smart kids together does unhinge a few of them. I'd say there is an association between brilliance and social isolation, and then between social isolation and mental illness. So some are already very troubled. On top of that, many CTYers experience the summer as a relative social and intellectual paradise. Knowing they have to go back to their normal lives is a big stressor. --69.143.126.105 05:54, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

69.143.126.105 is me. Just created an account! Looking back there, I see you were probably looking just for factual confirmation of the suicide/nutmeg overdose, Christopherlin, rather than an opinion on whether they could have happened. -JRootabega 06:19, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One of the pages created by CTY alums had their page in black in mourning over a CTY suicide. I can't find it on http://web.archive.org right now though.--Bramboro

No, its not nonsense. Having gone to both Carlisle (Dickinson) and Lancaster (F&M), I can say that the statements about the "rinas and rhinos" as well as the chant are mostly correct. It is not "war, war, war, war", however, but rather "more, more, more, more". For verification, one could check with the CTY community at LiveJournal. There is a such thing as a canon, as well. I have never heard of a suicide attempt, however, either that livejournal community, or this one could perhaps explicate on the matter. - DavidIzzo

Yeah, the ballerina thing and the chant are both true, both are still going on at Carlisle as of last summer. Also, how about the kid who changed the entire Dickinson computer network to Flemish, and they had to basically reformat everything because no one could read flemish. Bonus Onus 04:54, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

yeah the chant at the end of American Pie is definitely "more, more, more, more"

I can confirm the chant for LMU. It was four dies, four lives, four sexes, and four mores. It did run into the next few lines of the song. Maeglin Lómion 04:53, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I can also confirm for Los Angeles/LMU in 2005. Clarinetplayer 04:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm the ballerina thing at Carlisle, but I've helped with it a bit seeing as how I'm a CTYer who is also a rhino. I also have friends who are rhinos who attend the Central Pennsylvania Youth Ballet summer program for five weeks, and one of them actually dated a friend of mine from CTY for four months, so I think the animosity has been eased a bit between CTYers and rinas/rhinos.

The Pie chant/dance is also in place at Lancaster. I was there 2004-2005. Students and staff do the chant and dance differently, though. Are there pages for each site's different cultures, or pages for each tradition? --zandperl 21:07, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Yup, the American Pie chant definitely happens at Baltimore, though I'm pretty sure the last word is "more", not "war".

okay so the american pie chant is in all the sites except siena. and it's 'die die die die live live live live live sex sex sex sex more more more more".

American Pie

The full set of callbacks to American Pie, as I remember from from Lancaster 2001, included "Die Die Die Die Live Live Live Live Sex Sex Sex Sex More More More More!" after the first five choruses, but not the last. The other callbacks were:

Verse 5

Oh, and as I watched him on the stage

My hands were clenched in fists of rage! (shouted)

No angel born in hell

Not even one!

Could break that Satan's spell.

And as the flames climbed high into the night

To light the sacrificial rite,

I saw Satan laughing with delight

mwa ha ha!

The day the music died

Verse 6

I met a girl who sang the blues

And I asked her for some happy news,

But she just smiled and turned away.

I went down to the sacred store

Turkey Hill!

Where I'd heard the music years before,

But the man there said the music wouldn't play.

And in the streets, the children screamed,

Aaaaaa!

The lovers cried, and the poets dreamed.

But not a word was spoken;

shhhhh!

The church bells all were broken.

clang, clang clang.

And the three men I admire most:

The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost,

They caught the last train for the coast

East coast sucks!

West coast sucks!

The day the music died. --April Arcus 23:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

The callbacks (as of 2005) have expanded and altered somewhat since your recollection (2001). Is it worth our documenting them? --zandperl 02:21, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

I recall the suicide legend from Siena (the gypsy site). When it was still hosted at Clinton, about six year ago, there was supposedly a kid who killed himself in his dorm room. In his memory, nobody chants "die die die die live live live live sex sex sex sex more more more more" during American Pie. -Moonstone 20:26, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

I have also heard that the suicide happened at Clinton. It seems that the person hung or strangled themselves in a shower stall. An RA (Session 2 04) confirmed that the reason Siena doesn't chant is out of respect for a student who died at one of Siena's previous incarnations, but the RA refused to elaborate further. puppies_fly 03:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

According to the feedback page for On Leaving CTY the suicide was at Clinton, in the first week of Session 1. It's in the comment second from the bottom of the page, with a name and email address given, so perhaps someone could contact the person for confirmation.

Hacky Sack

Could anyone verify anything about a hippie game? I remember something of the sort at the LMU campus. I can't remember the name though. It requires a woven ball filled with some sort of beads an passed around the players using any part of the body except the hands. Typer 525 01:02, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok I remember now, it is called hacky sack. Could anyone verify??? Typer525 03:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Your worst enemy from CTY can verify that everybody played that game, and its not only at CTY. People at my school commonly play that game. In fact, there was a problem when two people tried to do it for the talent show. You're the internet geek, look it up yourself. Basically people just like the idea of playing soccer without carrying a soccer ball everywhere. Ajaxrools

A few people did it at Siena session 2 05, but it wasn't really a big thing like frisbee.puppies_fly 03:22, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Passionfruit

I've only been to Lancaster... There, passionfruit is only the last day, when we all go home. What is the tradition at other sites?

I haven't seen one at the LMU campus. I don't think it applies to all of the sites. Typer 525 00:53, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

It's only the last day at Siena, but I have heard that it happens every week at some other sites. (After this summer I will be able to confirm what happens at Skidmore also.)puppies_fly 03:26, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if it's changed since I was at Lancaster, but the description currently up is completely inaccurate. Also, I went to JHU for one session and there wasn't one at all. --Aliaslola 21:24, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The description given is accurate for the Carlisle campus(where passionfruit originated), though the last passionfruit is always much larger then the others. --Schuyler s. 15:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know that Passionfruit started at Carlisle-- maybe we should add that tidbit, and perhaps specify that the current description of Passionfruit only really applies to Carlisle.--Aliaslola 16:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Nomores vs. Nevermores

Can anyone confirm which is which? The page currently says nevermores can't come back (too old) and nomores choose not to come back. I thought it was the reverse, as that is what most people at Carlisle call them. It could be different at different sites, as the names are inherently too similar. Bonus Onus 04:54, Mar 8, 2005 (UTC)

At LMU, Nomore is a very rarely used term. Nevermore is usually used for both cases; it is technically used for too-old people. Maeglin Lómion 04:51, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Skidmore (Saratoga) has a very clear definition that agrees with the current page Bonus Onus cited. I don't remember hearing the term in Lancaster though. — Ambush Commander^(Talk) 01:44, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Siena's definitions also agree with those currently on the page and those at Skidmore. --TD Mak 02:26 August 26, 2005 (EST)

At Hamilton in NY (1998), it was nevermores were too old. At Lancaster 2001, no-mores were too old; and nevermores had declined to return by choice or other circumstance. --April Arcus 23:47, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I never heard "nomore" when I was at LMU (2005). It was always "Nevermore." Clarinetplayer 04:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm at Lancaster it is nomores are too old, nevermores aren't coming back for some other reason.

When I was there, I don't recall hearing the term "nomore" at all. But then, that was a while ago, and I was only there for one session, so things may well have changed.

At Easton, 2005, there was nothing special for nomores, nor was there even such a term. (I would know, because I was one, (this year I have to get a job...)) Nevermores were supposedly allowed to stay up late on the last Friday night for a "Nevermore Party". --Fearan 17:52, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm Siena Session 2 03, 04, and 05. Nevermores are too old, Nomores choose not to return. puppies_fly 03:24, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

At JHU session 2, 2006, "nevermore" is too old, but I never heard "nomore" used.

At most sites, a nevermore is one who is too old to return, whereas a nomore is a person who won't return for other reasons. The opposite is true for the Lancaster and Carlisle sites.

Early history of CTY

CTY was originally OTID (Office of Talent Identification and Development) back in 1980-1982.

The 7-11 grade residential colleges were the first programs. Before 1980, there was also the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY, see for example http://www.jhu.edu/~jhumag/0400web/16.html), and I think there was a Program for Verbally Gifted Youth (PVGY). The first residential colleges were Saint Mary's in Maryland (1980-1981) and then Franklin and Marshall and Dickinson in Pennsylvania.

"Rina" was a nickname in use all the way back to at least 1984.

The "American Pie" tradition was not part of CTY back in 1980-1984.

Cross-dressing at CTY may have originated in F&M in 1983. For the big CTY dance, the staff provided ties for the boys. The girls wanted ties too and the staff said, "only if you can find boys who will wear skirts."

Many of the CTY student traditions were solidified after the 1980-1984 period by Matthew Belmonte.

Cross dressing at Lancaster

Word of mouth at Lancaster has it that at least 10 years ago, there was a male student who wore a skirt. The administration at the time was not nearly as "Zero Indifference" as they are now, and ordered him to dress gender-appropriately. In retaliation, at the Second Saturday dance, a large number of students cross-dressed to show their solidarity. From this, the tradition of Second Saturday was born. However, I do not have a solid source on this. Has anyone done research on CTY culture? Maybe the upcoming documentary from the Lancaster site will provide some of the much needed references. --zandperl 21:17, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

That was Carlisle, but (Along with most of this article frankly) it's not verifiable, so shouldn't go in here. 24.136.38.121 23:07, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Upcoming documentary?! I'll have to keep an eye out for that. I remember the extensive cross-dressing on Second Saturday, from when I was there, but I don't recall many details regarding why.

There were people under the impression that it stemmed from the Alcovian performance of Sweet Transvestite. There are also those who say it was began as a protest against the dress code. I have no idea if this is actually the case, but it sounds about accurate. -Moonstone 21:57, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

I was present in 2001, when the Alcove rose from the ashes of eish and llrt, and second saturday had already been an established tradition for years. --April Arcus 02:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I was at CTY Lancaster Session 1, '05. That's when they were filming the documentary. The basically followed everyone around all the time. There were 5 people in the focus, although the filmed others. We had one of the girls in our dorm. I haven't heard anything about when it will be shown. And yes, there is cross-dressing second Saturday. CTY rocks!!

I'm not so sure they were fliming a documentary. According to the main CTY page and this Interview with Sean William Scott, it's actually going to be a comedy... which as a former Lancaster CTY'er, I'm not exactly thrilled about, especially if it confirms my fears that it's just going to be the standard lowbrow B-flick fare that ends up mocking us.--Aliaslola 21:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I was at CTY Lancaster Session 1, '05 as well. I doubt that it will be a comedy. Sean William Scott was not even there and nothing like what is described in that interview seemed to be going on, if that alleviates your fear at all. It's possible that they are two different projects. Just from observing the crew last year, I can't imagine how they'd turn this into a comedy. Funny stuff happens at CTY, and there is plenty to be mocked I suppose, but the kids they were filming weren't even actors. Regardless, I have heard nothing about any CTY films in a while... (Just to stay on topic, even if it is dead:) I'd also like to confirm Cross-dressing day in both Lancaster and Saratoga Springs and that I'd heard stories about suicides, but had never seen evidence. I'd also like to confirm that CTY rocks!

I was at CTY Lancaster Session, '05, too. And so far as I saw, it didn't seem like they were filming a comedy. It seemed like a documentary, but then again, they could have just been doing research. As in, opposed to actually filming the project last year, they were just filming people to base characters on, so they could try to get some of the actual CTY stuff right. I've heard about this film multiple times, and it's supposed to be coming out by the end of the year, but I, for one, doubt it. And as for being on topic, I heard stories about multiple suicides. Mostly from the early nineties, but one from Saratoga Springs, Session 1 '04. I don't know if it's true, but as far as I've heard, some kid drowned himself. I haven't seen or heard anything validating any of the supposed suicides, though.

I have heard that cross dressing day (as well as goth day) started at Carlisle, of course I heard this at Carlisle, but it seems fairly legit. The story is that Sing For America, a patriotic singing group (I have seen references to this event in CTY newsletters from the 80's) came to Carlisle the second tuesday of 1st session (the Carlisle tradition is the second tuesday) and the cmapers dressed in drag to scare them. They eventually stopped coming to Carlisle but the tradition lived on. For Goth Day, it was a redskins training camp that came roughly the second thursday of 2nd session, that we all dressed Goth for, although I havent seen primary sources for this

I heard that the cross-dressing at carlisle started because there was/is an "if a guy can wear it a girl can wear it, if a girl can wear it, a guy can wear it' rule that the students were making fun of. And i heard goth day is supposedly the day that the rinas leave, and everyone dresses up in goth to scare their parents. but at car. '06 session 2 everyone got confused, and some people did it one day, while some people did it the next day. most people, however, ended up not doing it at all out of confusion. a few people, including i think the game theory class, dressed in white on the first of the two goth days in order to be different and non-conformist.

Afterdance

One critical piece of (Alcovian) culture no one seems to have mentioned is the Afterdance, involving chanting, the hokey pokey, an interactive monologue, and various (vocal) songs. It is held for about 15 minutes after every dance, and one flees to the dorms after it is over, still chanting. Does this happen at other sites? I've been to Siena and JHU, and neither of them seem to have it. Moonstone 20:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

At Lancaster the afterdance consists of a chant of "CTY you have a nice butt, CTY we love you, Take off your clothes, Take off your clothes, CTY we love you."

Siena doesn't have an afterdance, but you can usually hang out outside for awhile before being sent to your hall.puppies_fly 03:28, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Skidmore, ever since '06.1, has had 'I'll Make A Man Out Of You' as a final dance AFTER american pie on the LAST dance only. This applies to session 1 only.

Other Traditions

Other traditions:

At Carlisle 1999 and 2000, we played "Rainbow Connection" at the end of the talent show for the nevermores (non-returning students).

At Carlisle 2000, we briefly revived what was apparently a former tradition of reading Trina Paulus' "Hope for the Flowers" the morning of the last day.

The Passionfruit ritual exists in various forms at different sites. At Carlisle it involved a small gathering on the morning of each saturday during which toasts were offered to friends, present and absent. At Lancaster it was a much larger event held only at the end of the session, and was host to some rivalries between die-hards and less avid campgoers.

At Carlisle 2000, somebody came up with a song to The Stranger (novel) to the tune of "Oh! Susanna". I remember a few verses:

The sun was shining in my eyes

My shoes were full of sand

I shot the arab four more times

Because the Gun was in my hand.

Chorus:

Oh! Maria,

Don't waste your tears on me.

I'm the existential hero

And I'm condemend to be free.

I shot the arab, yes it's true

It seems a senseless crime

But since there is no afterlife

My guilt will end in time.

Chorus

Maybe somebody else remembers the rest of it. It was a bit of a hit at the time. --April Arcus 23:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

"Oh! Maria," to the tune of "Oh! Susanna" was written by the TA of the Existentialism class and popularized by him and his students (of whom I was one). Some students breifly considered asking to submit the song as an act for the closing ceremony, but that was a nonstarter; we opted instead for singing it loudly and repeatedly on the academic quad during breaks, occasionally with guitar accompaniment from our TA. --SV

Groups

The CTY community was not completely homogenous, and several groups or cliques persisted for many years at different sites. Most famous were the ones at Lancaster - digiclan, the prototypical group, whose members went on to form the first LLRT (Land of the Large Round Tables). Prior to my arrival, there had been two large groups - the Eishans (from "Eish", a hypercaffeinated bastardization of "Fish", as in the card game "Go Fish" - friendly, angstless monty python and hitchhiker's guide fans) and a reformed LLRT (hypersexual, angstier, types - my people). In 2001 these merged into an uneasy collective known as "The Alcove", which I believe still has a Yahoo! group under that name. --April Arcus 23:45, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Alcove still exists at Lancaster as of session 2 '05

The history of groups goes back further. The first year, 1980 at St. Mary's, saw the proliferation of "cults". The first was "The Apocalyptic Pigs", and students were introduced to me as "Apostles of the Apocolyptic Pigs." I was guru of the "Holy Blue-Eyed Australian Muskrats." The only other group I remember now was "The Nuclear Whales." We fought battles with "rat-tail" towels, and earnestly negotiated merging our religions to bring peace.

"Digiclan" may be prototypical, but was not the first. The RFH was big at Lancaster in 1983. RFH stood for the "Red Felt Hat" worn by one member, or "Royal F-ing Headache," as the group appeared from the outside.--Bram Boroson 4 Dec 2005

In recent years Siena has had a "family." They lasted maybe 5 or so years at CTY, but never took in too many new members and this summer will be the nevermore year for the last members.puppies_fly 03:31, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I can confirm the Alcove at Lancaster session 1 '06

Related pages needing work

I just created the Loudonville, New York page, please take a gander.

Also, the Julian Stanley (founder of CTY) page is under threat of deletion as a copyright infringement of the JHU/CTY press release. Please see that page, and the replacement page I started working on at Julian Stanley/Temp. After a few days of the standing copyvio notice, it'll be deleted and replaced with the temp page.

--zandperl 21:10, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Forbidden Interaction?

As per general CTY policy forbidding CTY students from interacting with non-CTY students or staff without express permission of their parents, CTY students are not permitted to speak to participants in other programs.

This has got to be either a joke or some kind of new rule. I went to to CTY for five years in two different locations and no one ever told me not to speak to other children. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 08:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I do remember such a rule, though nobody took it seriously. To those who had less diligent RAs, it was practically nonexistent.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Moonstone (talk • contribs) 17:59, December 20, 2005 (UTC).

It's not a joke at Carlisle. One CTYer who wore a bun was chatting with another CTYer. A RA saw them, but didn't see bun-girl's lanyard immediately, and pulled aside the other CTYer and started telling him/her off until bun-girl explained she was not a rina.

I was at LMU this past summer (2005), and there were two other groups there: guitar camp and sports camp. We were told not to talk to the guitar camp people, but I don't think that it was actually a rule. No one cared about us talking to sports camp kids, but we didn't anyway. We all thought they were boring. Clarinetplayer 04:01, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I just got back from Saratoga. Nobody cared if I talked to or ate breakfast with the rinas or skidmore precollege programme, perhaps because I already was friends with some of them, but a girl in my hall had her boyfriend visit on a town trip and he was sent home by an SRA. puppies_fly 17:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

In Lancaster, my RA didn't care if you talked to people from other camps. It was just if you talked to someone that didn't belong on campus. For example, a friend of mine's boyfriend came to visit, but she wasn't allowed to talk to him. At lease, that was my experience.

SRAs and admin will definitly enforce this rule but it is not always taken seriously by RAs. If the visitor looks like a CTYer (and esoecially if they have a lanyard on them) the RAs will not particularly question them.

I don't recall this rule (JHU 2005 + 2006), but no one ever really bothered to speak to other people, since they were usually pre-college, and therefore a bit older than most. 76.197.237.25 05:16, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Rubik's Cube?

At LMU/Los Angeles, a ton of kids are obsessed with Rubik's Cubes. Can anyone confirm this for other sites, so it can be added to the list under CTY culture? Clarinetplayer 04:06, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Don't remind me about those crazy guys doing 5 rubik's cubes in less then a whole minute. Yeah I verify that. Typer 525 00:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was there too... I actually know both of them... and wasn't less than a whole minute, it was 3 minutes. laipi14159 25 May 2006

At CTY Lancaster it is estimated that one in 5 kids can do a rubik's cube. There are people who teach others during the session. The craze has now become the 4x4x4 rubik's cube, as Phil L. Dave Z. and Mike W. all could solve it, Phil one handed. The three of them had been know to solve it for cty bucks during casino day, which occurs on the second saturday.

I can't confirm that for Carlisle presently, although I can't say whether or not it was a fad in previous years.

I've been to CTY 4 times at 4 different locations, and I distinctly remember rubiks cube prowess at at least two. At JHU 2005 there was a rubiks cube act in the talent show and the kid actually broke one because he was going too fast. --Daniel Olsen 07:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Note: This is indeed true, I was at the 2006 CTY at LMU, indeed many people including me could do a Rubik's cube. -D.D.

I've seen a talent show act of solving the Rubik's cube at JHU, 2006.

I can confirm the talent show thing at JHU 2006. Personally, I don't think a lot of people solving the Cube has anything to do with CTY. I didn't see that many people able to solve it at JHU 2006 anyway. 76.197.237.25 05:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability

All the original information in this article is accurate. Since there are no other sources on this information aside from the New Yorker Article, it stands to reason that editors who have experienced CTY several times should be trusted to convey an article on the topic. I am therefore removing the verify cleanup.-User:thechosenone021

Sorry, I'm going to put it back up, since it would violate WP:NOR if Wikipedia was the only place for some information. Even a blog post or forum is better than having no source at all. --AySz88^-^ 20:53, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, theoretically an enterprise could be taken to cite various blogs/personal journals, not to mention the existence of a cty wiki used for displaying said unverifiable information. This article is close to a copy of that, or at least all points here can be found there. thechosenone021

I agree, removed verify cleanupSpacedragonblue

End of the World

I just attended session 1 lancaster 2006 and I noticed that you guys left out bathrobe/towel thursdays. Alot of CTYers wear a bathrobe and towel every (or second) thursday in tribute to Arthur Dent in The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'd also like to note there is *no* correspondance between CTY and mental health issues. CTYers are all sorts of intelligent, fun loving kids. We come to CTY to learn and for the amazing social experience. There simply are no boundaries (socially) people who I would feel wierd approaching elsewhere are my best friends at CTY. People from all walks come there, poor, rich, all ethnicities, emos, preps, and what's amazing is that every single one puts aside there differences. Yea, sorry I went OT but it needed saying. And at Lancaster we do do the afterdance with CTY we love you, CTY you have a nice butt, take of your clothes, take off your clothes, CTY we love you! Canon does or use to include James Brown is Dead, Brown Eyed Girl, Night Swimming, American Pie, Stairway to Heaven, Bizzarre Love Triangle (where CTYers form a human tunnel and run through with pants above their heads [new rule, no swinging of pants, just holding] and many more that I'm probably forgetting. Peace. CTY we love you!

I personally knew several people with various mental illnesses (I was choked against the wall by one who took anti-psychotics). Taking this experience aside, I can think back to find a generally higher percentage of people with illness at the camp than I have in normal society. The cannon as of 2005 session 2 lancaster was as follows: (in order) Istanbul (Not Constantinople), Blister in the Sun, James Brown is Dead, In Your Eyes, Rock Lobster, Birdhouse in your Soul, Nightswimming, Tunak Tunak Tun, Oh L'amour, Bizarre Love Triangle, Stairway to Heaven, Time warp, It's the End of the World As We Know It (And I'm Feeling Fine), Forever Young, American Pie. Kamerad 00:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)kamerad

Heavy on fandom, light on information.

While I realize that CTY is a very special and intense experience for its students, I'm a little dismayed at the amount of fancruft in the article. I worked as a TA in 1995 and 1996 and an instructor in 1997, so my knowledge of the organization is pretty outdated, and I don't know how helpful I can be. Besides, I was never a student there. I may do some work on it if no one else does. Maybe a list of classes would be helpful? I've already added a section on how students are evaluated.

I've always wondered about the kid who wore the bathrobe every day at Lancaster and the other boy who fished credit card transaction receipts out of the trash at the Turkey Hill ATM and used the numbers to call phone sex numbers. I still can't help grinning a little when I think of Bathrobe Boy (that's what we called him) walking around in 90 degree heat in a thick green terrycloth bathrobe waging his one-man war against conformity with Quixotic intensity. Brian G. Crawford 03:21, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I TAed in 2003 and 2005 and the "high pass," "pass," "fail" model for evals was never recommended or even mentioned either by site administrators or the evaluation handbook in those years. I don't know if this is a site-specific thing or something CTY-wide that has changed over time, so am reluctant to edit the article itself. Anyone else have information about this?--SV

I didn't learn that this grading system was widespread at Lancaster until I became a full instructor. Then, I discussed with other seasoned instructors on how to handle the evals, and they told me this was the way they did it in the humanities division, where things are a little fuzzier than math. It's really the best way to get the evals done in the one or two days one has to write them. Basically, it gratifies both the instructor, who is wont to give a grade, and the student, who doesn't want one. CTY is all about repeat business, so evals are really just boilerplate praise, and meeting with parents is an exercise in diplomacy few 22 year olds are ready for. A lot of the kids are just brats who study what they want to and spurn anything they don't find interesting, and some are interested in everything. Respect for authority is extremely variable. Mine were approved with minimum changes, so I was doing things right according to HQ. Maybe you don't know about evals because you never wrote any? I don't know, but as I said before, my knowledge is probably outdated. --BGC

Las Vegas Night???

I do believe it's Casino Night at the LMU campus rather than Las Vegas Night, or at least in recent years - I went to CTY in LMU for 3 years (03-05) and it was always "Casino Night" and even the longest-staying students never called it "Las Vegas Night". Kungming2 00:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I can agree, I went to CTY LMU for 3 Years, (03-05) as well, and it has always been "Casino Night". laipi14159 5:44, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I went to CTY F&M in 96, 98 and 99 and my memory may be outdated, but I think there was a Casino event of some sort there as well. I definitely remember there being a Wedding Chapel, although I remember it happening during the daytime, not at night. Schi 00:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Featured Article?

We should seriously begin to renovate the page. It would be nice to nominate this as a featured article, it meets the criteria for it. Typer525 ^Contact 20:10, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's close to FA status. Either way, make sure you go through peer review first. --Christopherlin 20:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I belive thats why I said we should renovate first...I submitted the page for peer review though, it was a good idea. --Typer525 ^Contact 21:49, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Usage of site names

For the purposes of this article at least, is there an agreed standard on how one refers to each site? For example, I observe JHU over Baltimore, Skidmore over Saratoga Springs, but also Lancaster over F&M, Carlisle over whatever it actually is, etc. Schi 00:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It's all according to convention, and yes, a standardized way of writing names should be implemented. –- kungming·2 | ^{(Talk·Contact)} 00:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

How to decide if information is general enough for this article

Please try to follow this as much as possible.

1. The information applies to more than one site.
2. The information will not be outdated if certain people leaves the CTY program (ex. nevermores/nomores).
3. The information applies to the CTY program or general CTYer at most sites (Culture section only).
4. The information is consitent to the CTY program (ex. Mandatory Fun or Non-Mandatory Fun for LMU)

As long as the information meant to be posted satisfies at least half the requirements, it should be general enough to be used. This is not mandatory requirement for all edits, but a general guide to high quality edits. Thanks Typer525 ^Talk 23:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Split Section CTY Culture

Hi folks. As a long-ago giftie and long-time staffer, it seems to me that the CTY Culture section should be spun off into its own separate article. It's by far the largest subsection and its content is distinct. It accounts for ~99.4% of the article's edits and discussion. Most importantly, its tone and style are disparate from the other, drier sections. This point is also mentioned in Wikipedia:Peer review/Center for Talented Youth/archive1.

Following the guidelines from Category:Articles to be split I am inserting a split template. Please reply. -- Frankie 13:40, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello there. As an admin of RealCTY (the CTY wiki), I have a thing or two of concern about the section in general. Although I'm a Lancasterian myself, I know a lot about many other sites from what I've been doing for RealCTY. Although it is true that the tone of the CTY Culture section is quite different, the quality of the content is what I'm really worried about. The culture section generalizes quite a lot about student traditions at CTY. Some of it is a bit outdated, and most of the "culture" listed only applies to one or two site; plus, the lack of organization is irksome. If anyone is able to do some cleanup with the section as a whole (e.g., organize the subsections of CTY Culture by site), it would probably make the page seem a lot less crowded. --Memoriesonfilm

Thanks for your insight. But if culture is divided into subsections by site, wouldn't that make it even larger overall? Seems like that would be a point in favor of splitting. -- Frankie 13:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

With no evidence to the contrary, I will take everyone's silence as tacit approval of my split suggestion. At some point in the near future I will create a new CTY culture article, organized by both subcategory and by site, then replace the CTY culture section here with a one paragraph redirect. -- Frankie 20:10, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Terence Tao?

How come Terence Tao gets mentioned in the sentence about SET? I've never heard of him and it has nothing to do with CTY, unless there's something I've overlooked in which case whoever put him there should elaborate. - (unsigned edit by User:67.84.66.81 on 2006-12-13)

There is a great deal more to CTY than just the summer programs. Dr Tao participated in SMPY, and is an excellent example of a child prodigy investigated by SET. But if you know another participant who scored 760 at age 8, feel free to list that person instead. - Frankie

Okay, my mistake. I hadn't heard of him. But the article doesn't make his significance clear so it looks (to the average user) that someone just decided to tack their name onto the article for bragging reasons. Perhaps adding the 'Dr.' to his name might clue people in?