Talk:Chai Keong Toh

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Update

The following modifications were done by Rms125a@hotmail.com om 11 December 2016 without explanation or justifications:

1. added "Singapore-born"

2. Inblox - "D. Greaves - advisor" was removed

3. visiting professorships at YALE, Stanford, etc etc was removed

4. earlier work at Archive, Advanced Logic Research and board member of convergence corporation (acquired by Amazon) was removed

5. subheading title "Innovations & Awards" was changed to "Other" without explanation

6. Invention on car-to-car communication networks was removed

Wikipedia administrators need to look at why such modifications were done by Rms125a@hotmail.com without reasons and explanation.

Revision Note

Reviewed the editorial changes made by Rms125a@hotmail.com and Cameron11598. 3 maintenance tags were put up by the earlier editors on (a) inline citations, (b) resume style of writing, and (c) close source. However, facts and explanations for inserting these tags were not given in this article's talk page by these 2 editors. Several other information were deleted without explanation, as shown by article "view history" editorial logs.

Improvements made to this page include:

1. More inline citations were added to each section

2. Neutrality added to the tone of writing

3. Change style of writing to resemble those of other living persons and technologists

4. Section header - "Innovations & Awards" were changed by Rms125a@hotmail.com to "Other". This section contains information mainly related to inventions and awards. So "Inventions & Awards" is a better section label than "Other".

5. Links to other wikipedia subjects are also added, such as Wi-Fi, Federal Communications Communications, National Institute of Standards, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Infocomm Development Authority of Singapore, Institute of IT Professionals, Chartered Engineer, Chartered IT Professional, etc

The maintenance tags are now removed and if earlier editors ( Rms125a@hotmail.com ) and ( Cameron11598 ) have further comments to make, please do so on this talk page. Thanks signed by Mercer 14.100.136.130 (talk) 09:20, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

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Name change revert discussion

On 24 MAY 2020, editor Justanothersgwikieditor has made several drastic changes to this article without first discussing on its talk page and getting consensus. These include:

1. Name change: from "Chai Keong Toh" to "Toh Chai Keong" with any discussion and getting consensus first prior to the move

2. Changing career information without any links to reliable sources to verify and confirm those information, such as year at Singapore Power, position, and left date, etc.

3. Adding unnecessary terms such as "newly created position", etc. Be concise. Is this even necessary? A job can be a replacement or newly created but it is not important to say this in a wikipedia person article.

4. Group CTO title at IDA was removed from the original text without explanation or discussion.

A google search of the name "Chai Keong Toh" has revealed many many records in that name over many years (since early 1990s), his papers, his books, his PhD thesis, awards, fellowship titles, etc. The public databases and records point to a definite use of "Chai Keong Toh". It is recommended that this name "Chai Keong Toh" remains and not to be changed.

Also, there is a certain promotional aspect of "Singapore" added, such as "Singaporean", "Singaporean Scientist", etc., which may not be needed and necessary in a wikipedia page since it is clearly stated the person was born in Singapore. It is recommended this page be reverted to its original form dated 22nd MAY 2020. Thanks. CanadaMaple123 (talk) 10:14, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

== Name Change

I know professor Toh for more than 15 years and I completely agree that his name, should be CHAI KEONG TOH to be coherent with all the previous references.

Juancarlos.canoescriba (talk) 10:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC) Juan-Carlos Cano (jucano@disca.upv.es)

I agree that the name should be reverted to "Chai Keong Toh". Putting the surname first causes confusion.

Cmcalafate (talk) 11:16, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes, the name should be reverted to "Chai Keong Toh" as this is the correct way.

Fcomardo (talk) 12:56, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi CanadaMaple123, Juancarlos.canoescriba, Cmcalafate, Fcomardo, I like to refer you to Wikipedia policies on WP:CANVAS and WP:MEATPUPPET.

* On name change, Toh Chai Keong has 1,610 google results [1] and 19,600 google results [2], as such either name is acceptable as there is no overwhelming. There is a general leaning of Singapore agencies and institutes using "Toh Chai Keong" and publications (generally US centric) using "Chai Keong Toh". I am fine with a proper discussion on name change (do exclude me) but note that WP:CANVAS and WP:MEATPUPPET are definitely frowned upon.

* His positions at Singapore Power is unsourced, feel free to remove it or tag citations needed, which I will remove it myself.

* For his newly created position, I am following the source where it is explicitly written it is newly created. While this is considered details, it is still important to note it is newly created. It can be deemed a very important position or Toh is important enough to create a new position. Also, if you note, there are quite a few Assistant Chief Executives in IDA, so I am just noting that a new position was created for him.

* I tried searching for IDA group CTO and do not see see him being appointed. Both links supported his appoint as ACE but nothing to indicate he was once CTO of IDA. As per biography guidelines, any unsourced information can be removed immediately.

Also it is part of WP:MOS, to denote the citizenship and birth place of a person. it is common to write, a Singaporean scientist, an American scientist etc. Unless you have proof or information that Toh is no more a Singaporean, I will be happy to update it to Singapore born American or whatever nationality he chose to adopt. Also, it is only mentioned twice, Singaporean scientist and born in Singapore. It is not excessive and not a bias. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 03:07, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi Justanothersgwikieditor, see reply below:

1. Based on the various editors' opinions, there is a majority consensus to revert back to the original "Chai Keong Toh" and the google search statistics indeed did show this name "Chai Keong Toh" yields the majority. Also, it is inappropriate to change a person's name that has been in use for so many years, as evidenced by records on the web.

2. There is no need to say "newly created" position and I suggest removing it. Other editors please comment.

3. About his Group CTO title, a google search yields this source [[3]]. So his title should be CETO - Chief Engineering & Technology Officer

4. About nationality, there is no sourced proof. I think it is safe to say "Singapore-born" scientist, etc. This person has worked in a few countries and there isn't a clear indication and proof of his current nationality.

- signing off CanadaMaple123 (talk) 12:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree that this article to be reverted to its original name of CHAI KEONG TOH and also there is no need to add "newly created position". And I think "Singapore-born" is good enough. So, revert the article back to its original version of 22 MAY 2020.

Fcomardo (talk) 19:46, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi CanadaMaple123, Juancarlos.canoescriba, Cmcalafate, Fcomardo, I like to refer you to Wikipedia policies on WP:CANVAS and WP:MEATPUPPET once again and understand the implications.

I am agreeable to include "CETO - Chief Engineering & Technology Officer" to his page since there is a source leading to it.

Also, in the same source, it is noted he is a Singaporean. ACE Toh is a Singaporean with more than two decades of senior leadership experiences across multiple countries

For page renaming, I have started a request move discussion to build consensus. Please however to take note of the two policies again, WP:CANVAS and WP:MEATPUPPET. Please note vote canvassing are usually frowned upon.

Appreciate if you can put in your Support votes in the correct section.

Hi CanadaMaple123, referring to your accusation in the below section. I like to clarify, I removed Group CTO as it is unsourced, added back CETO as per your source. I believe they are very different terms in the commercial space and context. Also, your provided source cleanly stated he is a Singaporean which is now verified by a good source. To change his nationality, you need to have a good source that he had converted his nationality. Just because the source is old does not mean it is no more reliable and not true anymore. If there is a change to his nationality, you need to back it up with sources. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk)

Hi, firstly, you (Justanothersgwikieditor) should not have moved this article and changed the name without first discussing with other editors. Secondly, your reasons are unacceptable. Wikipedia pages are global and not Singapore-specific. This person was educated in the UK, his thesis, degrees, etc, in that name, worked in the UK and USA in that name, and so for long. You cannot just go ahead and change a person's name just because you are a wiki editor. You must discuss and get consensus first. Web records showed this person consistently used "Chai Keong Toh" for over a period of 20+ years. I recommend we revert back to the original name of "Chai Keong Toh" and please resist from impulsive editing of wikipedia pages without first discussing with other editors. Juancarlos.canoescriba (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@Juancarlos.canoescriba:Hi, I like to point to WP:CIVILITY first. The name change is a bold move which is acceptable. The circumstances leading to the page move is very simple. He is a Chinese Singaporean which means on the day he is born (or till his parents registered with the government of Singapore), his official name is Toh Chai Keong which he will used in official documents till the day he make an official name change with the government of Singapore. Work records in Singapore institutes and government agencies listed him as Toh Chai Keong for the period he is staying and working in Singapore. The world is not US/Europe centric. I will defer to WP:COMMONNAME and the discussion held in the section below which I already done so. I have made proactive moves to resolve the issue by consensus but you and the other editors have been invited to canvass for vote and unwittingly becomes sockpuppets. Also I believe there is conflict of interest for the invited editors with Toh which in all does not bodes well for all of you. I believe English might not be the first language for all of you. I strongly suggest to read the links to various policies, understand it, declare your COI and present your case properly. Accusations does not bode well in wikipedia. Policies you might want to read up, WP:BOLD, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:SOCKPUPPETS, WP:CANVASS, WP:COI and WP:CIVILITY--Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 08:13, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

@(Justanothersgwikieditor):, Dear Justanothersgwikieditor, i do not want to put my effort in arguing with you or with any other here in wikipedia since I think is not worthy. I just do not understant why you could be so interested in changing the name used by prof. Toh, that he has been using for so much time. As an example, in my University the rule for signing papers is Composed Surname + Composed Name, so in my case would be Cano-Escribá Juan-Carlos (I have no problem in showing my real name), however for more that 25 years I have been signing as Juan-Carlos Cano. So If now somebody change my name it could easily create confusion in many places, and nowadays as you may know not to create confusion and being coherent is a must. So my University totally allow me to go ahead as Juan-Carlos Cano. This is just my point. Said that, I do not want to start arguing and respectfully ask you to agree in changing the order of professor Toh name as it was originally. Kind Regards. Juancarlos.canoescriba (talk) 08:26, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

# To wikipedia editors (volunteers) and admins: @Alfie:, @Robert McClenon: @Steven Crossin: @TransporterMan: @MrX: @Chiswick Chap: @HJ Mitchell: @Bradv:

I am calling for your help to review this dispute discussion and seek your comments. I am a 1-year old wikieditor interested in BLP. Please read replies made by (Justanothersgwikieditor) earlier to get the full story. The history of events is summarized below:

24 MAY 2020 edits made by (Justanothersgwikieditor) (from article 'view history' section)

- CHANGED career description [[4]]

- MOVED page CHAI KEONG TOH to TOH CHAI KEONG [[5]]  using reason of WP:BOLD 

- CHANGED "Singapore-born" to "Singaporean" [[6]] without adding reliable sources

- CHANGED United States to "United State]"  - [[7]]  WP:VD

- ADDED unsourced material " He left IDA in 2016 to join Singapore Power (SP Group) as CTO and vice-president." [[8]] - after my complains, he removed.

- ADDED "newly created position" into article [[9]]

- CHANGED original publication source title "Towards A Greener And Energy-Efficient Internet" to "Green Internet - Dated 2009" for no good reason [[10]]. Changing someone's authored article title to something else is not a good act. WP:VANDAL

So, I have concerns on how (Justanothersgwikieditor) has approached this discussion. He (Justanothersgwikieditor) has strayed from key points below:

1. "Chai Keong Toh" is  over 10 times more frequently cited than "Toh Chai Keong" ( 19,600 versus 1610 times) but (Justanothersgwikieditor) editor said this in his discussion "* On name change, Toh Chai Keong has 1,610 google results [1] and 19,600 google results [2], as such either name is acceptable as there is no overwhelming." . His reply is a twist of fact. Why 19,600 is not overwhelming than 1610? Note that "Chai Keong Toh" was missing from his sentence. But he later added that in the request for move window statement below this section.

2. He cited Singapore context, citing he knows the person is Singapore Chinese, the person birth name registration by parents, etc. Does he has evidence or reliable sources? If not, don't make such claims. Does he know his parents, his race, and was physically present at time of name registration, etc? Avoid writing in such contentious way. It is hard for people to believe in your points.

3. He cited the person is "Singaporean" based on a source (that I searched and found earlier on the web rather than he provided himself). Regardless, he has not provided any reliable sources himself to claim the person's nationality or birth status. Hence, his insistence of his nationality is in doubt. He used a single source that I had provided, pointing there is a word that say "Singaporean". But that source is not a good enough source since it is not from a reliable "nationality office" source. A good source should be one from immigration office or registrar of births. WP:RS

4. I have suggested the use of "Singapore-born" instead of insisting of "Singaporean", which I felt is more safe rather than jumping the gun. But even Singapore-born has no reliable sources, which I therefore now think it should be removed totally. Hence, remove country of birth and also "Singaporean" so as to avoid any contentious material that are not reliably sourced. WP:BLPSTYLE WP:BLPSOURCES WP:RS

5.I think Wikipedia pages are not specific to a certain country. Rather, it is country independent. I think it is not ok to change a person's name on wikipeda based on one's point of view without reliable sources, public records, and usage statistics (history, location of use, periods of use, etc) on public web records. WP:RS

6.. (Justanothersgwikieditor) insisted on adding "newly created position" to describe this person job at IDA. I felt this is unnecessary. A job can be a replacement or newly created. It is not important in wikipedia. BLP articles need to be concise. WP:CONCISE

7. (Justanothersgwikieditor) stated in his reply "t can be deemed a very important position or Toh is important enough to create a new position. Also, if you note, there are quite a few Assistant Chief Executives in IDA, so I am just noting that a new position was created for him." This statement seems to indicate BLPCOI. How does (Justanothersgwikieditor) know this is "important enough"? His reason to add "newly created position" does not ring with me.

8. (Justanothersgwikieditor)'s insistence on changing original name to "Toh Chai Keong" may be an indicative of WP:PA. Please declare your COI. What good have you done by doing this without presence of reliable sources? WP:RS

Editors' comments are welcome. I realized this BLP page has been created in 2013 and that this page has survived in that name until now. Statistics of name usage further proved that "Chai Keong Toh" is widely and publicly used in many work places, many countries, many publications, etc. I have tabulated facts derived from the web search records:

a. Usage : via Google search - "Chai-Keong Toh" yields 8180; "Chai Keong Toh" yields 8490; "Toh Chai Keong" yields 1680; "CK Toh" yields 50,700; "Toh CK" yields 18,800

b. Used in: UK, USA, Sweden, Finland, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macau, Spain, Japan, Korea, etc.

c. Sources: University work sites, publication sites, conferences sites, awards sites, professional society sites, academy sites, etc.

d. His wikipedia official work website: points to the usage of "Chai K Toh" [[11]] and [[12]]

So in summary, I am inclined that the article be reverted back to its original name of "Chai Keong Toh". Please comment. CanadaMaple123 (talk) 03:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

User:CanadaMaple123 - Haven't you learned anything yet?!?! You have just come off a 72-hour block for sockpuppetry and canvassing, and now you are canvassing editors who have nothing to do with this dispute. I have had nothing to do with this naming dispute, and I am not planning to do the research into what the name should be or what this dispute is about. If I take this dispute to WP:ANI, remember that you called me, I did not call you, and had nothing to do with this. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:09, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't do moderated dispute resolution on article talk pages, as it's a recipe for disaster for various reasons. Moreover, if the only issue is the name change, the move request in the next section below will be resolved by a neutral editor and, thus, has built-in dispute resolution. We generally refuse dispute resolution requests when a move request is pending. There is no hurry, so just let it play out. And I agree with Robert: This looks a whole lot more like improper canvassing than a legitimate request for dispute resolution. — TransporterMan (TALK) 16:25, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 27 May 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. No objection. (closed by non-admin page mover) Mdaniels5757 (talk) 22:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

---

Toh Chai Keong → Chai Keong Toh – Note that I had originally moved Chai Keong Toh to Toh Chai Keong and on the request of CanadaMaple123 to move the page to original page name of Chai Keong Toh. While this is a Chinese commonname, with the surname usually in front which is Toh. Toh Chai Keong has 1,610 google results [13] and Chai Keong Toh has 19,600 google results [14]. There is a general leaning of Singapore agencies and institutes using "Toh Chai Keong" and publications (generally US centric) using "Chai Keong Toh". He has an extensive career, both commercial and academic, spanning different countries which leads to a mix of his name being presented. As per page talkpage, there is some discussion on what the page should be named. I am fine with the page being named either with a proper consensus Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 01:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)—Relisting. Mdaniels5757 (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

• Comment It maybe noted that Toh is a Singaporean where typically common name is surname is placed first. [15] Appendix C Speaker Profile of Toh. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 02:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Support - I support the move back to original article with the original name of "Chai Keong Toh", with reasons stated earlier in the discussion. This name has been in used since the creation of the article and web records show extensive use and citations for a very long period of time (since the 1990s) in many different countries. You should not have moved and changed a person's name on wikipedia without first discussing it and without understanding the consequences and implications. Next, about the appendix C you had mentioned, it was dated in 2015 ( 5 years ago ) and hence not a good source of his current nationality. So, the use of "Singapore-born" is safer and better than making a straight guess of his nationality currently. That appendix however did confirm his CETO title which you had earlier denied and deleted (again without references to any reliable sources ). CanadaMaple123 (talk) 05:22, 27 May 2020 (UTC)— CanadaMaple123 (talk • contribs) is blocked for having used sockpuppets in this debate.
• SUPPORT - I believe when people search for Prof. CK Toh they will not do it by changing the name order. He is known as "Chai Keong Toh", and inverting it in Wikipedia will only cause confusion and searches to fail. I support it being reverted to the original name. Cmcalafate (talk) 06:39, 27 May 2020 (UTC)— Cmcalafate (talk · contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of CanadaMaple123 (talk · contribs).
• 'Support. I fully support to have the name changed back to the original name of "Chai Keong Toh" for reasons stated earlier. Juancarlos.canoescriba (talk) 08:33, 27 May 2020 (UTC)— Juancarlos.canoescriba (talk · contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of CanadaMaple123 (talk · contribs).
• Support - I fully support the change back to its original name of "Chai Keong Toh". 19,600 versus 1610 is a huge difference! There is clear consistency of this name being used globally for 2 decades. Fcomardo (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2020 (UTC)— Fcomardo (talk · contribs) is a confirmed sock puppet of CanadaMaple123 (talk · contribs).
  • Please note that this section is about the page move and not about other content. You can comment about the content in the above section. --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 06:18, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Please note Juancarlos.canoescriba, Cmcalafate, Fcomardo has been indef blocked for CanadaMaple123's sockpuppetry. Please refer to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/CanadaMaple123. Thanks --Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 01:29, 28 May 2020 (UTC)
• Relister's comment Now that socks are blocked, perhaps a consensus can emerge? --Mdaniels5757 (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.