Talk:Chaim Walder

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Apparent error

The source for the claim that Walder's stories are not necessarily true is referring to one of his openly fictional short stories (in Behind the Mask), not to those in People Speak, which (as far as I am aware) he does not admit are fictitious... Very possible that there is an Ivrit source discussing whether his stories are true, if anyone wants to look... High Leader (talk) 16:15, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

Factual Error

My account doesn't have enough seniority to edit this semi-locked page.

Please change:

"The Safed rabbinical court found that over a period of twenty five years, Walder had sexually abused women, girls, and boys that had come to him for treatment."

to

The Safed rabbinical court interviewed numerous witnesses and found that their testimony supported the report in Haaretz that over a period of twenty-five years, Walder had sexually abused women, girls, and boys who had come to him for treatment.

(and add at least one of the citations below)

Explanation:

There is no citation / attribution given for the statement that the court "found" this - i.e., that court proceedings were ever concluded decisively.

1. It is true that the beit din in Safed, under Safed Chief Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, was investigating and had interviewed many people. (Walder did not live in Safed but Rabbi Eliyahu is a leading force against abuse in haredi communities.)

2. Rabbi Eliyahu DID go on record as saying the witnesses' testimony was credible and "match what was published in Haaretz."

3. Prior to Dec. 17, 2021, the Safed rabbinical court summoned Walder to give testimony on his own behalf and he refused.

HOWEVER, it is not clear from any of the sources that the court / Rabbi Eliyahu had made its final decision in this case.

If there is a source for this, it should be cited. Otherwise, the sentence should be changed to read

The Safed rabbinical court interviewed numerous witnesses and found that their testimony supported the report in Haaretz that over a period of twenty-five years, Walder had sexually abused women, girls, and boys who had come to him for treatment. [I also changed "that had come to him" to "who had come to him"]

THANKS!!!

Sources:

https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/haim-walder-author-accused-of-rape-summoned-to-safed-rabbinic-court-688931 https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-689858 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tzivia494 (talk • contribs) 08:58, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

I think you're wrong. Here, for example, he is asked if the beis din was already sure before they sent the summons and he responds that they sent it because they wanted to push him to repent (so, a yes). https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FHuBHgkXoAIaX3D?format=jpg&name=large GordonGlottal (talk) 19:53, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 December 2021

Change the statement of Yitzchak Breitowitz from simply stating that the suicide was a final act of abuse (which implies it was necessarily intended to be so) to “the suicide may also be a cause for trauma to the victims… if one wanted to be harsh one could say it was a final act of abuse”. The current source of the statement is my source for the change. It is clear from Rabbi Breitowitz’s tone and words that he is not saying with certainty that Chaim Walter committed suicide as an act of abuse the way the current wording implies. 155.93.245.225 (talk) 10:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 21:23, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Factual error. Rabbi Lau did speak out in support of victims. He knows the walder family personally and went to comfort them (they are victims too) I believe Haaretz recently reported on this

Factual error. Rabbi Lau did speak up in support of victims. His shiva call was to support the mourners not to honor the dead 108.46.191.14 (talk) 19:49, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Not erroneous at the time (remember to WP:AGF) but it is out of date. If you post a source and suggested language (see WP:ER) I'm happy to make this change. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:02, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

He belatedly expressed support for the victims after receiving criticism and calls to resign. Regardless of his intention, his shiva call was certainly perceived by some as honouring the deceased as is stated within the provided source. Feel free to suggest a change that reflects this. AllOtherNamesWereTaken (talk) 10:12, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Factually wrong: Chaim Walder was not a Rabbi

Please remove the word "Haredi Rabbi" from the first sentence of the page of Chaim Walder:

"Chaim Eliezer Walder (Hebrew: חיים אליעזר ולדר, romanized: Ḥayyim Eliʿezer Valder; 15 November 1968 – 27 December 2021) was an Israeli Haredi rabbi and author of literature for children, adolescents, and adults."

This is factually wrong. Chaim Walder was not a Rabbi. He had no rabbinic education, never attended a rabbinic school and never applied for or passed rabbinic exams to receive rabbinic ordination (S'micha). He did not work as a Rabbi either and never held a rabbinic position.

If he nevertheless was a Rabbi, please cite appropriate sources. Otherwise, the sentence should be changed to:

Chaim Eliezer Walder (Hebrew: חיים אליעזר ולדר, romanized: Ḥayyim Eliʿezer Valder; 15 November 1968 – 27 December 2021) was an Israeli author of literature for children, adolescents, and adults.

Thank you.

185.182.71.24 (talk) 23:07, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Most publications have referred to him as Rabbi and none has said specifically he isn't one. I don't know if he received formal training, but in general all male schoolteachers will be called "rabbi" in Orthodox communities. It isn't up to wiki editors to decide who qualifies for the title, we have to follow reports. GordonGlottal (talk) 00:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Haaretz's Anshi Pfeffer says specifically that he is not a rabbi: "And for Walder himself, it was a position of great power, especially for someone who isn’t a rabbi himself." Don't think Wikipedia should be deciding that he's a rabbi if it's disputed. 129.98.36.67 (talk) 04:22, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

He was described as a Rabbi by various sources. 1,2,3. AllOtherNamesWereTaken (talk) 13:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

See WP:RSOPINION please. Haaretz is normally reliable but Pfeffer is an opinion writer. The Lithuanians themselves disagreed, though Pfeffer is supposedly describing their position -- Yated Ne'eman consistently called him ha-rav, including in Walder's obituary. GordonGlottal (talk) 14:25, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

There's different levels to being a Rabbi. Pfeffer could have meant that he didn't serve in a formal rabbinic position which is correct. However, as you stated above, "rabbi" is not just an occupation but can describe an Orthodox male that has studied Torah and works in education, yeshiva/kollel, or communal affairs. AllOtherNamesWereTaken (talk) 18:11, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Insertions regarding rabbis' endorsement and Tau letter

I have reverted Mandely's insertion of "Edelstein and Chaim Kanievsky had six months prior written a personal endorsement of Walder, before the allegations were known" as the source does not state this and it is too vague as it does not clarify to whom the allegations were not known; it is apparent that some parties were aware of the allegations for a while.

I have also removed an undue focus of Tau's position and revisions. He is a peripheral figure to the article and his view should be condensed into a sentence. AllOtherNamesWereTaken (talk) 13:04, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Tau's second letter is not a reiteration of his first statement. That is all I was trying to accomplish. The criticism of undue focus is well founded but does not require restoring the incorrect statement that Tau reiterated his earlier statement in the letter.

Regarding the endorsement, the article states that the endorsement was of Walder's latest book. Such endorsements of books are very common in the Orthodox Jewish world (known as 'haskamos') nearly every Orthodox Jewish book has such an endorsement from a reputed rabbi. The allegations were not yet known to the general public, although "before the allegations were known" may not be the correct phraseology as some were aware. It should be clear, though, that the endorsement was not in the context of the allegations. Mandely (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that Tau's view should be accurately presented. However, "the court proceedings were lies" suggests a procedural objection and doesn't capture Tau's broader view that: "הכל שקר והכל כזב. שלא תאמינו מילה אחת בכל האשמות האלה." I have therefore changes this to "to not believe the accusations which were all lies."AllOtherNamesWereTaken (talk) 10:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

"It should be clear, though, that the endorsement was not in the context of the allegations." I agree with this and your latest edit satisfactorily achieves this.AllOtherNamesWereTaken (talk) 10:13, 2 February 2022 (UTC)