Talk:Chain of Rocks Bridge

Untitled

This bridge also serves as the site for several public annual events. I think it would be useful to list this here as well. Rklawton 05:20, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

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Chain of Rocks, Missouri is not near the Chain of Rocks bridge. I don't believe there is a connection between them. This page says that the town was named for a chain of limestone rocks, and implies that they are in the Cuivre River, near which the city is located. Anyone have any evidence of a link between the 2 names? I've removed the reference. If someone can provide any evidence, the link can be added back. --Booch 18:29, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no connection between this bridge and the geographic feature it's named after and that town and the feature after which it is named. There probably shouldn't be a reference to the town in the article given that the only relationship is their name, unless, perhaps, to redirect the misguided. But that's doubtful, IMHO. --Kbh3^rdtalk 22:32, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Both the city and the bridge are named from the same geological feature. Indeed, the bridge is only a few hundred meters upriver from the feature. A reference in the bridge article to that feature seems important. Should the bridge link to the city? They aren't contiguous, and one isn't named for the other, so I agree on that point. Rklawton 23:11, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Regretably, Kbh3rd doesn't know what he's talking about. He makes two contentions:

One: Bridge/Geologic feature connection: This link shows the connection and provides some nice illustrations. [1]. You can see the one from the other. Therefore the bridge should reference the geologic feature from whence it got its name. Rklawton 08:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Two: Village/Geologic feature connection: The article cited by Booch isn't clearly written. If you've been to Chain of Rocks (village), you'll know the Cuivre River is a wee bit bigger then a creek and doesn't run over limestone. The Chain of Rocks across the Mississippi, on the other hand, runs over the chain of limestone rocks as noted in Booch's link. In the link I provided, you see more detail:

During the last ice age, the Mississippi River was re-routed from its original channel in soft river sediment (farther to the east in present day Illinois) to its present channel over resistant (mainly limestone) bedrock. The river has yet to wear down the bedrock and this feature is still a rough spot in the river.[2]

It makes no sense that a village named "Chain of Rocks" wouldn't take its name from the area's most noticable geological feature that also just happens to have exactly the same name. Rklawton 08:01, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's possible the town was named for the Mississippi feature, but my initial concern with the town article was that there is some distance between the two and it would be nice to have this information if possible. But the pictures of the bridge shouldn't be there. Chain of Rocks Bridge is in northern St. Louis, and the town is some distance (about thirty miles) and two counties away. It's possible whoever settled the town named it for that feature (I've seen stranger origins for location names in Missouri), but the pictures seem to suggest that its located next to the bridge.Rt66lt 02:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Since the bridge photo is no longer in the Chain of Rocks, Missouri, article, I'm assuming all is now as it should be. Rklawton 05:28, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I just looked at the site and it's not completely accurate. It list Chain of Rocks as a "village", but it's listed in the Official State Manual as unincorporated.Rt66lt 02:39, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The bridge is closed.

The bridge has been closed to the public for some time now and there is a road block before you can get to it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.171.42.13 (talk) 05:10, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Dam 27

A recent edit says dam #27 was built to keep the water level high enough at the low end of the old lock #26. This article, which names no sources, says it's to keep the pool high enough upstream of lock #27. The dates don't match up either: 1953 vs. 1960. Could it be that the dam was built along with the canal & locks #27 in 1953, but hightened somewhat in 1960? (It' can't have been heightened too much!) I searched "dam 27" on .mil sites to find what the Corps of Engineers might have on it, but I didn't find much. These are the kinds of things that need to be cited. --Kbh3^rdtalk 21:49, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

A couple notes, Survey number HAER IL-33 data page 3 says dam 27 was constructed in the early 1960s and provides additional depth for more efficient operation of #26, the old Alton lock and dam. It has 92 images in it and 11 data pages to explain the facility and its historical context. The Alton lock and dam apparently was problematic since its construction, maybe the dam was an attempt to save it or something. Eventually the Alton facility was replaced by Melvin Price Locks and Dam and was destroyed. We have an article about the Chain of Rocks Lock (#27) but no article focuses on the dam at this time. Most of the other L&D articles include the lock and dam in the stub article, but that one must not include the dam because of the distance between the two facilities and possibly the simplicity of the dam. See also List of locks and dams of the Upper Mississippi River for others. As for the 1953 date, I assume that means the date of the opening of Lock 27, February 1953, per HAER IL-33. --Dual Freq 23:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The edit/information on the dam was provided by myself. I tried to leave a post citing my sources, but I apparently did get saved properly. My apologies if I did something wrong at first.

To clear up confusion, the in 1953 date comes from the $40 million-dollar Chain of Rocks canal, that was built to uncork a bottleneck that had throttled commerce on the Mississippi river. It's purpose was to bypass the rock-ledged reach of river literally described as a chain of rocks, stretching for 7 miles immediately to the north of St. Louis. When upriver ice or temporary drought reduced the amount of water in the river, the jagged rock ledges on the west bank of the river in the Chain of Rocks reach stoppered traffic on the river. the Chain of Rocks canal was completed on February 7, 1953 and dedicated on May 9, 1953.

I cite the "St. Louis Commerce" magazine, and a reference card found in the collection of the Missouri Historical Society for my sources.

The dam was built later. The Dam #27, often mistakenly called “the chain of rocks” was actually the first complete barrier across the Mississippi. The purpose of the dam was to back up water to insure a minimum nine-foot depth at the old Alton locks, 12.5 miles upstream, where barges had trouble getting through in periods of low water. Four thousand rocks in graded sizes from two to six tons and 100,000 tons of smaller rocks were used in building the 25 foot high dam. The dam was 10 feet higher than the downstream sill of the old Alton locks.

I cite the November 13th, 1960 issue of the "St. Louis Post-Dispatch" for the above information. I copied the article from the collection of the Missouri Historical Society.

The dam was named Dam 27 and was dedicated at a ceremony hosted by the Mississippi Valley Association on November 8th, 1962. Col. Afred J. D’Arezzo, District Engineer organized the ceremony.

I cite the October 6th, 1962 issue of the “The Waterways Journal” for the above information. I copied the article from the collection of the Missouri Historical Society.

I have photocopies of all my research, plus I've lived but a few miles from the Chain of Rocks all my life. --Fnbrowning 03:12, 3 August 2007 (UTC)fnbrowning

Discrepancy

There is a glaring discrepancy between this article and the article New Chain of Rocks Bridge.

In this article, it is stated:

"Its most notable feature is a 22-degree bend occurring at the middle of the crossing, necessary to allow river traffic to have uninterrupted navigation on the river."

However, in the New Chain of Rocks Bridge article it is stated:

"The original Chain of Rocks Bridge was a narrow bridge with a 22 degree bend midway over the river... The true reason that the 22 degree bend existed was to minimize construction costs, as a placing a bend in the bridge was the only way to ensure the bridge was consistently laid upon bedrock."

Well which is it? here I find:

"The promoters had purchased land on each side of the river, but the parcels were not directly across the river from each other. The plan was to build the bridge on a diagonal to the river. The US Army Corps of Engineers objected to having a bridge cross the navigation channel at an angle. As a result, the section of the bridge crossing the navigation channel was built straight across the river, and then the remaining part of the bridge was built on the diagonal to meet up with the Missouri shore. The result is the 24 degree bend where the straight and diagonal sections meet."

which tends to support the former explanation, but not exactly, and actually seems to be a third explanation. Plus who is John Weks anyway? And why does a bridge crossing a river diagonally impede navigation? This official Missouri document (pdf) states that both reasons are in play. So this seems rather murky at best, and if a truly reliable original source can't be found, perhaps we should remove speculation about the reason for the 22 degree bend from both articles.

I am cross-posting this at the New Chain of Rocks Bridge talk page. Herostratus (talk) 03:57, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

Not having gotten any response, I simply removed the reasons from both articles, leaving just the bare fact that there is a 22-degree bend. Herostratus (talk) 17:47, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Escape From New York

Is this the same bridge used in Escape from New York? Trivia on IMDB notes that John Carpenter, the director, purchased this bridge from the City of St. Louis for $1 then returned it to the city for the same amount after filming. LK Thurisaz (talk) 12:55, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is. 146.200.202.126 (talk) 10:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

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There is no explanation as to why this bridge goes through a 22-degree bend in the middle

It states that there is a 22-degree bend in the middle of the bridge but then there is no reason given for why this design decision was made. Was it economics? Practical reasons? Or geological? Kind of a glaring omission for such a historical and noteworthy structure. 146.200.202.126 (talk) 10:45, 17 July 2022 (UTC)