Talk:Chapter 1: The Mandalorian

Guest stars vs co-stars in the sidebar

In television, a "guest star" is a large role which appears in multiple scenes, but is not a series regular. A "co-star" is a small role that usually only has a few lines. These are well-documented definitions. On each of The Mandalorian episode pages' sidebars, these labels are currently used incorrectly -- the guest stars are labeled as co-stars and vice versa. I corrected this on each episode page. These edits were reverted by Cardei012597 who claimed the edits don't "benefit or enhance the quality of The Mandalorian episode pages." To me, correcting what is objectively a mistake does "benefit and enhance" the quality of the pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Suitsandboots (talk • contribs) 17:21, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

I am sorry, but the way it is now works well for these pages. You claim does make some sense, however, it doesn't benefit or enhance the quality of The Mandalorian episode pages. If you want to assist on improving the quality of these pages, I highly recommend adding more development, filming, and casting information and news on each episode. This development information should be supported by online sources. As for what to do for what kind of casting or starring an actor makes for an episode, any changes regarding that are not necessary or particulary relevant. Cardei012597 (talk) 17:57, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

The Mandalorian episodes use a non-standard billing. They use "co-star" to mean "guest star" and vice versa. The Wikipedia pages reflect the onscreen credits. Cardei012597 (talk) 02:04, 28 January 2020 (UTC)

@TheVampire:, this discussion has already occurred, as per the above posts. The simple facts I will state for why we can NOT include "co-starring / Guest starring". First, this practice will only open up a discussion of adding EVERYONE who was in each episode, no matter how small or quick their roles were. Second, most of the cameo guest actors you included in each episode are NOT supported by secondary sources, meaning news sources not affiliated with The Mandalorian, Disney, or Lucasfilm. Third, any inclusion of guest cameo roles will not benefit or enhance the pages in any meaningful or significant way. Cardei012597 (talk) 00:31, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97:, what are your thoughts on this issue? I read your recent edit summary, but I would like to see more details and analysis from you. Cardei012597 (talk) 00:34, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Cardei012597: Cameo appearances are not the issue here. We only have 2 actors having a cameo Favreau and Hamill. All the others are credited as guest starring and you don't want to list them in a section dedicated to guest starring actors. Which leads me to think that you would remove most people credited for Game of Thrones just because they're not put in a special "co-starring" section in the credits. If someone is credited as guest starring they are a guest and they should be included in the template, per documentation. On The Mandalorian we additionally include co-primary actors that would be included in an ensemble main cast list on usual shows. We do it in the template because they vary greatly episode to episode. I have already explained all this in the logs but somehow it's not clear yet. I don't want to open a precedent where actors credited as co-starring (minor characters) on standard shows are included in the template. I just want actors credited as guest starring to be listed in the section where they belong, just as happens with Game of Thrones.--TheVampire (talk) 01:55, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I do understand your point, however most of the guest actors you included in each episode are NOT supported by secondary sources, meaning news sources not affiliated with The Mandalorian, Disney, or Lucasfilm. Also, any inclusion of the guest roles will not benefit or enhance the pages in any meaningful or significant way. In all honesty, it would be more beneficial to include more guest roles only if it can boost up the development/casting sections of the main body of the pages, like reworded within groups of paragraphs supported by news sources. Also, as a side note, we shouldn't change what is done with these pages, just because the editors on Game of Thrones episodes decided on different solutions, because its not Wikipedia policy to do so. I can only side with your position ONLY if reliable secondary news sources specifically state these actors are in these episodes, like how Mark Hamill is included currently in Chapter 5. Cardei012597 (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I just want information to be complete. Take Chapter 4: Sanctuary, your edit has removed characters like Omera who has plenty of screentime with TM, her daughter Winta who plays extensively with The Child, or Caben and Stoke who travel during the episode to persuade TM to fight for them. These are guest characters who belong in the template. I used GoT as an analogy because it would be like removing minor characters from that guest list despite their status as guest starring. GoT follows the current guidelines. Your edit does not because it removes actors credited as guest starring. Again, take Emily Swallow as The Armorer. She is credited as co-starring in episode 8, but you removed her from episodes 1 and 3 in which she is credited as guest starring. I really don't understand the rationale behind this. And if you're looking for sources, check the section Guests in the main page and you'll find at least dozen. However, sources are not needed for people credited in the episode. They would only be needed for uncredited cameos (e.g. Hamill).--TheVampire (talk) 02:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I'll offer a compromise, we can include other guest starring roles if they are also recurring roles (appear in at least two episodes), like The Armorer. That way the guest starring role would not be (partially) superfluous. We should not end up including every character role that only appeared for a few seconds in a singular episode. Sound fair? Cardei012597 (talk) 02:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

I think we should at least include every named character, even if they just appear in one episode. Omera, Caben, Stoke have lots of lines in their episode and also have sections in the List of characters. Crediting only Gina Carano for episode 4 looks like she and TM are the only ones in the episode, which is not true. The appearance of the three directors as named X-Wing pilots is also credited and not a simple cameo. Then you have the opening shot of episode 8 where you have two speeder troopers taking the scene and talking for 5 minutes on their own. They are not named but they are important to the plot, even if their scene is comedic. I still believe we should include all those credited as "guest starring", which does not include doubles or background characters but actual speaking characters who all had a part in the episode.--TheVampire (talk) 03:07, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

The guest star section is for guest stars only, not co-stars, per the template documentation. This is pretty uniformly done as far as I have seen. The only thing that is a bit different with this series is it uses those terms the other way around, so the main guest stars are called co-stars and vice versa. So that means we should only be listing the co-stars in these infoboxes. The "guest stars" in minor roles and cameos can still be listed in prose in the body. - adamstom97 (talk) 03:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

So, if I understand you correctly, the extra guest stars should be moved to the body/paragraphs ("prose") of the pages, not in the infoboxes. I am ok with this, including "every named character" that appears on the series only in the development/casting sections. Cardei012597 (talk) 04:40, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Again, what about guests in larger roles like The Armorer, Omera, etc.? These are not standard co-stars, cameos or background characters, they are guests and they should be listed as such. I really don't see the problem in adding them. The only thing you are worried about is setting a precedent of people not credited as guests to be listed in the template. It would not happen here because they were credited as guest starring. We would not include performance actors or people who are not seen (e.g. the woman who played Kuiill), but only people credited as guest starring who actually speak and interact with main characters during the episode. And BTW, the casting section for this episode lists guest starring actors like Julia Jones who plays Omera who actually appears in episode 4 and not 1. The simplest way is to list the guest actors credited for an episode in the infobox of that episode, as the infobox documentation says. This thing that you consider guest stars here as standard co-stars in pure original research, in my opinion.--TheVampire (talk) 11:16, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

All Adamstom97 and I are requesting is just to write these guest roles in sentences in the body of the page, that's all. You can include the actors, and we can be done here, by just beefing up the casting or development sections of the pages with the guest roles written out in sentences. Why is this choice so terrible? Cardei012597 (talk) 18:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try to fix the casting section and add the guests in the next few days.--TheVampire (talk) 21:28, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Sounds good. The episode pages seemed light in development info currently, so it will also help out in adding more paragraphs of information, beefing them up. Looks like we have a nice consensus. Cardei012597 (talk) 21:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@TheVampire: re The Armorer and Omera, I understand why it seems wrong to not include them in the infobox, but the guidelines to use the main credited guests exists because there needs to be an objective way to determine the listing rather than relying on the opinions of editors who could have different ideas of who is important enough to be included. So we should list the co-stars in the infobox, and then any other notable guests like The Armorer and Omera in prose. - adamstom97 (talk) 06:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: @Cardei012597: I finished adding the credits to the casting sections as agreed. A few more sources might be added in a few points, but the full cast is there now.--TheVampire (talk) 15:45, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

I reviewed your work on the episode pages, and they look good. The info flows well and beefs up the casting sections. Good job. Cardei012597 (talk) 19:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

@Adamstom.97: @Cardei012597: Adamstom.97 you mentioned that leaving the note for Swallow in the infobox for this episode and the third one goes against consensus, but as you can read above, Cardei012597 was fine with my edits back in June and the two of us evidently reached consensus. Again, I am making my case for leaving the actress and the note here, on episode 3 and on the season 2 article, as Swallow has co-starring status for season one and she is a very relevant character to this episode, despite the credit. The fact that she was credited as guest starring for this episode and the third does not make her status as a co-star disappear, and it has to be noted in the infobox for clarity and completion. This is mainly because she is listed as co-starring in the main page but not here, and therefore the difference is confusing if not noted. She is a co-star who was credited as guest for this episode, so she can and should be listed as co-starring with a note explaining that despite her billing as co-star in chapter 8, she was credited as a guest in this one and the third. Complete and clear information come before any guideline, I believe. --TheVampire (talk) 23:27, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

It is clearly not up to I or you to maintain any kind of consensus, as any attempt will be ignored or tossed aside. I prefer to just end my contribution to this discussion, as there is nothing I can do about this situation. Cardei012597 (talk) 23:38, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

@TheVampire: As can be clearly seen if you read the discussion above, the consensus that the three of us came to was that the co-stars can go in the infobox, and anyone else can be discussed in prose in the development section. I'm not sure why you think that has changed all of a sudden. - adamstom97 (talk) 23:50, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

References

Article's notability

There is currently a discussion regarding this article's (and the other episode article's) notability, to redirect them back to the season article. You can find that discussion here: Talk:The Mandalorian#Episodes articles. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:24, 20 November 2020 (UTC)