Talk:Chariot/Archive 1

Archive 1

map

I did a rough map of the historical spread of the chariot. clearly, I will yet refine it and provide a legend dating the various colours, but I uploaded it already so people can criticize. comments? dab (ᛏ) 07:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

What I essed

I don't see any mention of the essed. (What people called their chariots that, I don't recal...) Also, I don't see any mention of what I understand was standard practise for earlier chariots: transport only, not actually fighting from them (as commonly believed). Can anybody clarify? Trekphiler 18:36, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I feel the need for horses

I've read (somewhere...) the most prestigious event at the ancient Olympics was the chariot race. Trekphiler 03:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

wouldn't it be extremely cool to re-introduce the chariot race as an Olympic discipline? I think even I would watch it on TV then. dab (ᛏ) 07:24, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

So who invented it?

Currently, the article eschews to answer the question who invented the chariot. There are two contradicting answers: the Sumerians and the Indo-Iranians. As I understand, the Sumerian chariot was a proto-chariot. It would be helpful to delineate the difference between Sumerian and Indo-European chariots in the text and to indicate why the Indo-European chariot was superior. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 23:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

equestrianism

I've deleted the following passage. Assuming that "equestrianism" means horse-riding, I thought that it was generally accepted that the earliest domesticated horses were too small to ride:

It is generally disputed whether the invention of the wheel or the domestication of the horse occurred first. This would have affected whether the use of equestrianism in warfare or chariot riding would have influenced ancient warfare first, and thus both of their places in the timeline of the development of civilization. Paul B 00:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

BCE

Please check the orginal edits. It is clear that BC was used as the preferred era format from when such formats first appeared in the article. Here's the first instance [1]. Accordingly, we should stick with this format, in line with policy. Thanks. 86.31.67.157 19:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

What the original edits had is irrelevant. Nothing mandates that the "original edits" be stuck to and if an article overhaul also includes a shift from BC to BCE (or vice-versa), then thats what stays (until the next overhaul).

Completely out of line is an arbitrary conversion from BCE/CE to BC/AD for no better reason than because it offends your sensibilities.[2][3]

-- Fullstop 15:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely and utterly wrong in your assertions, as is Paul Barlow. Here is the edit representing article creation [4] and there's no mention of BC or BCE. Here's the first instance of either terminology being used, and it's BC [5]. BC was used until this edit [6]. In fact at this point it was being used extensively in the article, with only one reference to BCE. Then we have this modification [7] on 24th April 2007. The editor who effected it has a bad edit history and as you'll see, his changes to this article only relate to substituting BC with BCE - so he's going against Wiki policy. His edit summary is "We are suppost to use BCE not BC nowdays". This view is, of course, entirely wrong. In reverting to BC I'm restoring the original usage in this article, which should never have been changed by BernardZ. I can't change it again today for fear of a 3RR ban, so I would invite Paul Barlow to restore orginal usage at this point. Incidently, Fullstop - you highlight my edits above. Fine, but have a look in detail and you'll see that they relate to similar matters to this one. In other words I never change BCE to BC on a point of principle. I am only ever restoring previous usage. If an article started with BCE then I won't change it. Thanks. 82.14.73.161 13:31, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

>> In other words I never change BCE to BC on a point of principle.

Actually, all your conversions from BCE to BC are on a point of principle.

It is however not a useful principle since your BCE->BC conversions do not improve the articles one bit.

Instead, they are actually destructive because then other editors have to spend time (that could be more constructively spent elsewhere) dealing with them.

You've been around long enough (over two years I see), isn't it time you got with the program?

>> I am only ever restoring previous usage.

1. its absolutely irrelevant what "previous usage" was. Articles are not static.

2. since you have changed articles that were started with BCE, this new "justification" of yours is simply not believable.

-- Fullstop 14:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

So Mr 82.14, you change articles that were started with BCE but later changed to BE back to BCE again do you? Of course you don't. Your arguments and references to policy are pure sophistry. I'm not dedicated to BCE notation, but I know disingenuous evangelism when I see it. If an article has been established with a notation it should not be arbitrarily changed. If editorsw interested in the artcile decide to change it, then so be it. That's what Talk pages are for. Paul B 23:08, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Quote "If an article has been established with a notation it should not be arbitrarily changed". So what do you think about the edit referred to above where BernardZ arbitrarily changed this article to BCE without adding anything else to the article? Neither of you have answered this point. As for me changing articles from BC to BCE or vice versa. It is not my intention to change articles that started (major edit) as BCE to BC, but if I've done so in the past (and I haven't been around for two years, where do you get that from?) it was not my intention to do so. Perhaps you could indicate the article(s) you have in mind and if they haven't been changed back already then I'll do so. As for changing articles that started as BCE, back to BCE if they were subsequently changed to BC, of course I don't. The reason for this is that BCE/CE is such a stupid idea that it lowers the quality of articles - why? - because most people don't know what it's about.

Regarding this article, in the light of PB's remarks about arbitrary changes I'm now going to revert the arbitrary change made by BernardZ. I'm sure you'll agree his change was arbitrary and added nothing. This article was stable with BC almost from its creation right up to April 2007. I'm going to restore that stable usage now, so please don't revert it again. 81.107.205.182 11:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

anon has a point. I was significantly involved in the early buildup of this article in 2005, and my version used BC throughout. The change to BCE was slipped in only last month by BernardZ[8], not exactly a major contributor to this article, and I would have reverted then and there had I noted the change. I don't think using "BCE" somehow degrades the quality of the article itself, but the notation is still jarring to me as a cheesy, greasy, still-born attempt at USian political correctness. Once it is acceptable to use the Unix epoch (the chariot was invented roughly at UE -125G, Gs is quite a useful unit since it corresponds to roughly one human generation), I'll be all for it, but until then I see no reason not to call Dionysius' AD epoch for what it is. dab (𒁳) 12:01, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

1. Point noted. I hadn't realized that the article was BC before BernardZ's "edit" of 24 April. As such, it should quite rightly be restored.
   This rationale should have been provided in the edit comment of 1 May 2007, but wasn't. Apparently because - at that point - "Anon" hadn't yet discovered his "just restoring" motive.
2. The rationale for a BCE->BC conversion aside, 81.107.205.x is edit warring. Which is policy violation #1. His "edits" do not actually improve the article. He's trying to force a point. Which is policy violation #2. By reverting even as the validity of his edits are being discussed on talk, while revealing a lack of good faith, is policy violation #3.
   Someone else (dab, you wanna do it?) can change from BCE->BC if he/she sees fit, but "Anon" has forfeited his right to do so.

-- Fullstop 18:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly the reason I reverted Anon's actions. I don't really care which noation is used, but moving to a preferred notation for no other reason than a campaign to do so should no be tolerated. Paul B 18:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I note that the changes to BCE and back again are being done like thieves in the night by hiding in the description a minor changes while doing a global change. At the time, I made a few changes. I prefer to do them one at a time rather then one hit as it as gives people a better chance to access the changes. I still think that BC->BCE change is in accordance with the wikipedia policy but I am not going to lose any sleep about it BernardZ 05:23, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

It is not. I am not really losing sleep over this myself, but the BC vs. BCE debate is one of the unresolved issues of the Wikipedia Manual of Style. And likely will remain so, no harm done, WP has rather more severe issues. We have an "era armistice" in effect. I am not pedantically insistent on this, but the present debate is a good example of what will happen when it is broken: time wasted in pointless debate. There is no simple solution. The ideological division is twofold. It appears that in the USA, "BCE" is secular and "BC" is 'evangelical'. But at the same time, in the UK, "BC" is scholarly style, while "BCE" is a new-fangled Americanism. As a result, the issue should be treated exactly like other British vs. American English differences. One "solution" that is really cutting the baby in half is the "BC/BCE" or "BC(E)" I saw used on Jesus. That's about as sensible as spelling "favo(u)r" or "favour/favor". It disfigures the text with petty issues completely unrelated to the matter under discussion. dab (𒁳) 07:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Right on dab (though I disagree that it has geographic/temporal boundaries). Incidentally, I have filed a checkuser for anon at Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Jguk. That unfortunately implies more time and energy expended/to be expended. Jguk's arb cases may hopefully also serve as a head's up for those who insist that any blanket era notation change (as we have been discussing here) has any justification. It doesn't. Period.

-- Fullstop 08:53, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

You thought I was jguk. I'm not. 82.20.29.182 15:37, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's essentially a UK/USA issue. It is mostly Jewish editors who feel strongly about the use of BCE, and it is standard on most Judaism-related articles. The Jesus article is obviously related to Judaism, but also - equally obviously - to Christianity. There has been near-permanent warfare over this at the Jesus article, hence the unhappy compromise. The BCE notation is anlso typically preferred on other articles related to non-Christian religions. Paul B 08:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess the Jesus article is the one special case where I can live with a "AD/CE" notation, because there the era question is intricately tied up with the article subject. Having monstrosities like "BCE/BC" in articles like "chariot" otoh is clearly absurd. Now, with major ;oP smileys and <xml:irony> tags, it seems indeed that this whole "BCE" red herring is a worldwide Jewish conspiracy because not even the Muslims (who usually are quite good at working up steam over ridiculous trifles) have a problem with it. Sheesh. I really opt for ab urbe condita, olympiads, or, why not!, the Unix epoch. dab (𒁳) 09:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Since the <xml:irony> tag is still open...

I'm particularly partial to the ab urbe condita idea because Roman numerals are so handy.

"The earliest spoke-wheeled chariots date to ca. A.u.c MCCXLVII and their usage peaked around A.u.c DXLVII."

Fortunately, AC dates are written the same way as AD dates. No anachronistic '-' sign necessary since ab and ante both begin with 'A'.

I prefer the WorldCup epoch to the olympiads scheme. Everyone (well, everyone that counts) knows we are now in the first year of the third Italiade. And 'WC' has a nice ring to it.

The Unix epoch is no good. It ends in 2034, which is still four years from the end of the world.

-- Fullstop 13:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

</xml:irony>

surely you must have heard of 64 bit integers? I, for one, will not mind dodging the climate collapse and find myself back in the golden age of Art Nouveau (by 2051=1914 I'll be rather too old to be drafted, too:) dab (𒁳) 14:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm only 2 bit myself. So, Art Nouveau is Art Noire for me. Which is probably a good thing because by 2051 I'll (hopefully) be staring at the lid of a very dark box. -- Fullstop 15:30, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

ps: really, truly, utterly off topic: the Unix epoch begins in 1970. Unless of course, you use a Mac.

Excuse for miscellaneous changes

I have made a number of edits to clarify the text without intentionally altering any facts in the original article. In particular, the introduction needed a fuller summary of the article's main points. Other changes, none of much substance, are mostly in the sections "Early wheeled vehicles in Sumer", "Central Europe and the British Isles" and "Greece". I have used scattered pieces from several standard encyclopedia sources; if you question any, please say so here and I'll supply the reference. Fbarw (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Indo-Iranians?

Why you think that Aryans was 'Indo-Iranians', aryans lived in Central Asia. Now There are turks, not iranians. I think that turks is descendants of Aryans.

Well, I guess you need to reed some books, pal. --Barbatus 13:25, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

• Anciet Central Asia =/= Now Central Asia; the anciet Central Asia was aryan; because in the Middle Age the Turkics peoples migrated from East Siberia/East Mongolia/Northeast China(Manchuria) to Central Asia and assimilated/absorved the aryans; the now central asians are a mixed of the anciet central asians(aryans) and the migrants of Siberia(turkic peoples) - turks are "mestizos" of aryan + mongoloid race(a mischiling people)!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.0.118 (talk) 22:24, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
• Indo-iranians = indo-aryans = eastern indo-europeans =/= western indo-europeans(celts; germanics; slavs; etc...)!!iranian = aryan in the iranian language. aryan = aryah = sanscrit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.71.0.118 (talk) 22:30, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

early chariots

Hello! I was putting together a small presentation on horseback riding and chariots and found that the image on the spread of the chariot, dates the earliest chariots north of the Aral Sea ca. 2000 BCE. I'm a bit confused, for the very same article state that the earliest chariots were found in Sumer, ca. 2500 BCE, as I always assumed. Am I getting something wrong?--- Cheers, Louie (talk) 00:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

The article currently clearly confuses two issues: 1. The spread from Mesopotamia from 3000BC of the four-wheeled Ox-CART and 2. The spread from Andronovo from 2000BC of the fast two-wheeled horse-drawn CHARIOT (as illustrated in the maps) I suggest that these two processes are clearly distinguished - not least by careful use of the terms CART and CHARIOT and a clear definition of the distinction between them. --Tediouspedant (talk) 10:00, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Remove

Is anyone going to start removing some of the bias information in the article. The aryan myth is just that, a myth. Theres no need to claim that the chariot was introduced into the Indian subcontinent when there is no evidence for it. The map also needs to be removed because clearly its incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.244.51 (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Why were chariots superceded?

The article says "Chariots ceased to have military importance in the 4th century BC", but there's no information about how chariot use was superceded, and what process led to them being phased out. Julius Caesar clearly had respect for Celtic charioteers in Britain, and Boudica won battles against the Romans as late as 60 AD, although they were defeated. I'm interested to know more about what military changes led to the downfall of chariot use - I assume it's to do with domestication and breeding of better horses and cavalry tactics but it would be nice to have a section on this from someone who knows more.Gymnophoria (talk) 13:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Alexander the Great (356 BC – 323 BC) apparently discovered the so-called mousetrap tactic which could defeat a frontal attack by massed chariots, making chariots somewhat obsolete. Seen on cable TV. Tabletop (talk) 09:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Gauge

The distance between the wheels of chariots is often said to influence the choice of the standard railway gauge of 1435. It might be true, but it would be hard to prove. Since tens of ancient chariots have been dug up from burial sites, etc., this theory could be tested. Tabletop (talk) 06:40, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Top picture

I would expect the first picture in this article to be of a chariot, with the map of their spread located somewhere below. —Swpb^{talk•contribs} 03:19, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Later through the centuries, the chariot, became commonly known as the "war wagon".

I'm very dubious about this claim. War wagons seem to be a completely different kind of vehicle, with a completely different tactical role. Most obviously, a war wagon is, well, a wagon, whereas a chariot is a cart. On top of that, the current text implies that "war wagon" was treated as a synonym of "chariot" (i.e. medieval people whould have said "the ancient Greeks/Egyptians/etc used war wagons".

IMO, this section should either be deleted completely or replaced with a brief passage saying "in the middle ages, the chariots were sometimes refered to as 'war wagons', although this also refered to a completely unrelated vehicle" (assuming that statement is true). Iapetus (talk) 13:19, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Measuring power by chariots

[9] mentions this with no details. Dougweller (talk) 09:08, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

I did not read the English source since Chinese is my First language.

Here are the sources of the original text, with my personal translation.

I confirm I understand the text as it is my mother language.

《孟子·梁惠王上》：「萬乘之國，弒其君者，必千乘之家；千乘之國，弒其君者，必百乘之家。」 趙岐注：「萬乘，兵車萬乘，謂天子也。」

Translation: [Mencius · Liang Hui Huang (King the Hui of Liang, Hui is a posthumous name) Volume One] 'The kingslayer of a country of ten thousands chariots, must be the house of thousand chariots. The kings layer of a country of thousand chariots, must be the house of hundred chariots.' [Zhao Qi's note] Zhao Qi's note: ' Ten thousands chariots, is the son of heaven (King of Zhou).'

《戰國策·趙策三》：「今秦萬乘之國，梁亦萬乘之國。」

Translation: [Zhan Guo Ce·Zhao Ce] 'Nowadays, Kingdom of Qin is a country of ten thousands chariots, Kingdom of Liang (Kingdom of Wei, 'Da Liang' is the capital of Wei) is also a country of ten thousands chariots.'

The Kingdom of Zhou is the greatest de jure kingdom in the Spring and Autumn Period, in the period follow it, Warring States Period, Zhou is in decline and some states (or pretty kingdoms) became huge kingdoms, Qin and Wei are the two of seven states in Warring States Period.

I do not know whether my personal translation is capable to be placed at the citing or not, so I put it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 183.179.225.57 (talk) 09:47, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Chariot and Bronce in Scandinav

It is dated between 1600 and 1800 before C.,... so,... a bronce statue of a chariot in the very north of Europe,... the timeline must be change!!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trundholm_sun_chariot

--2001:4C50:21D:F400:F992:6A7D:FDC5:CE4C (talk) 10:05, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Carpentom

There was no citation from where the information on the celtic chariot being known as "carpentom" came from. I came upon this source though, which mentions celtic Carpentom chariots: http://books.google.at/books?id=8x322-89x3MC&pg=PA16&dq=carpentom&hl=de&sa=X&ei=gMXXU7qAGqqBywOZiYLIAg&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=carpentom&f=false

It mentions them in the context of the Brythonic Celts of Boudicca, not of the Gauls fought by Julius Caesar, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.144.239.128 (talk) 16:06, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

Nov 2004

I wish you would revert your reversions. My regrouping wasn't by language per se, but by cultural traditions. And I split the Persian/Assyrian thing because it didn't actually say anything about Assyrian use. I think the article needs a lot of work, and I think I took it a big step in the right direction. — B.Bryant 11:45, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree it needs a lot of work. Grouping by "Indo-European", however is not a step in the right direction. The first spoke-wheeled chariots may have been Indo-Iranian, but certainly not Proto-Indo-European, and there is no IE "heritage" that is different from general technological transfer. Current organization is chronological:

• Sumerian "proto chariots" (no spokes): before 2600
• hypothesized Indo-Iranian early chariots, ca. 2000
• China, ca 1700 (I agree that China is difficult to classify. We need more information on that, and may have to move the section further down not to break the "Ancient Near East" chronology
• Egypt, ca. 1600
• Hittites, Assyria ca. 1300
• Persia, ca. 600 BC
• Greeks, originally the section treated the time from ca. 400 BC. The mycenaean section may be separated, now and moved together with "Ancient Near East".
• Celts ca. 500 BC-100 AD
• Roman until ca. 500 AD
• Tachanka

dab 11:55, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Because we don't have very much material yet on Egypt, Assyria, Hittites, Assyria, we may lump the sections together. It was the same cultural sphere. We can take them apart again as more material accumulates. dab 11:55, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All sections (except maybe the classical antiquity one) desperately need more material. Most desperately the Chinese section, and also the Indo-Iranian one. What are the individual archaeological finds? What interpretations are there? We also need material on Assyria/Babylonia, and more on the variants of chariot design in the Ancient Near East. dab 12:03, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

Since 2004 there are no sources reveals what you claim it, "Early wheeled vehicles in Sumer" section is need to sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.200.8.235 (talk) 20:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Axle

So all of this about the importance of the spoked wheel and no explanation of the axle. My question is: Did the chariot require a metal axle? Wouldn't a wood on wood axle have burst into flames? If the first chariots had metal axles then perhaps metal was a precondition, not necessarily the spoked wheel.Phmoreno (talk) 00:17, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Early inventions and introductions

I re-edited the info about the early wheel, horses, and proto-chariots in light of recent published evidence. Mostly I moved some stuff around and added valid refs. Now the article seems up to date, but of course could be improved further. Y-barton (talk) 06:27, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

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Earliest known chariots

@A D Monroe III: re. this edit, I hope my rewording clarifies that the Sintashta chariots are the oldest yet found. As for the second part, what are the other dates that conflict? I'm fairly certain that the Sintashta chariots are widely accepted as the world's oldest, but the archaeological literature on early chariots is careful to make a distinction between spoke-wheeled chariots and one- or two-wheeled carts. There are examples of the latter that are older. The distinction could probably be made clearer in the article. – Joe (talk) 12:45, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree this change fixes the poor wording.

For the date conflicts, I agree that the emphasizing the cart/chariot distinction can make the article be coherent on dates. What distinguishes a chariot from a cart isn't clear in the article. It doesn't help that the first paragraph of the History section and the Eurasian Steppes section overlap and restate some info, as well as the Eurasian Steppes section listing historical events in non-historical order.

I plan to edit for these issues if other editors don't beat me to it. This satisfies my concerns. Thanks. --A D Monroe III^(talk) 22:50, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Reversions

I do not think I can (or at least I do not know how to) "group revert" a series of edits, so I got this tagging on my edit summary:

• 09:03, 22 February 2021‎ 180.216.2.240 talk‎ 58,171 bytes +166‎ Undid revision 1008242334 by 2404:E801:2003:1655:2570:B9A1:DFE8:320F (talk) restored rm sources and some deletions that seemed necessary to coherence. Please add 'citation needed' tag if wanted. undo Tags: Undo Non-autoconfirmed user rapidly reverting edits

for reverting this series of (rapid) changes: 1; 2; 3; 4.

The original edits may have been useful, perhaps[?], but they seemed to be removing citations and important words, like the place where chariots were uncovered. No nuisance meant on my part. Please unrevert if that improves the article in the opinion of someone more familiar.

(As an aside, I note there was no special tagging on the edit summaries for the rapid edits made by other unregistered user, which seems a little unfair. But, I guess ... auto systems, huh?) 180.216.2.240 (talk) 09:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Removal of sourced info and pov-pushing indeed. Thanks, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

This addition was not very helpfull either: a video published by Bharat Patriot Foundation. Not exactly WP:RS. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:38, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Not Indo-Iranians

All branches of the original Indo-Europens used chariots, and the Hittites were a complete branch distinct from the Indo-Iranians. Both at a level with Germanic, Celtic etc.

Various chariot-riders spread west as the Indo-Iranians spread east, and the Tocharans spread north-east to the fringes of China. See Indo-European languages.

GwydionM (talk) 07:57, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Sintashta and chariots

Two interesting blogs by Razib Khan on Sintashta and the invention of the chariot:

• sept 17, 2021, The echoes of greater Scythia, referring to Kaliff and Oestigaard (2020), The Great Indo-European Horse Sacrifice: 4000 Years of Cosmological Continuity from Sintashta and the Steppe to Scandinavian Skeid, Uppsala universitet, full text available here
• sept 16, 2021, The heavenly horses of the Sintashta, referring to The origins and spread of domestic horses from the Western Eurasian steppes:

If you have an interest in the domestic horse (I have) you are aware it’s the product of massive demographic radiation from a small founder population. With ancient DNA we now know where it started: with the Sintashta people of the Volga to the Ural steppe 4,000 years ago.
This is not totally surprising, because we know that the Sintashta were highly warlike and they invented the light war-chariot.

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:21, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

celtic

what are the references for first century use of celtic chariots in battle? Battle of Watling Street mentions no chariots. dab (ᛏ) 07:01, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dbachmann (talk • contribs) 07:01, 8 February 2005 (UTC)