Talk:Chedorlaomer

vocalization

For the Tiberian and Ancient vocalizations, shouldn't the shewa be nonvocalic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.197.194.239 (talk) 22:08, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

references

Archaeological References

• Renfrew, Colin and Bahn, Paul Archaeology. Thames & Hudson. 2004. ISBN 0500 284415. Page 515 discusses conflicts between archaeology and Judaism

Near Eastern References

• Nelson GlueckRivers in the Desert. HUC. 1959.Discusses The evidence for the Exodus in the Negev
• William H McNeil and Jean W Sedlar, The Ancient Near East. OUP. 1962. Discusses the evidence for Habiru and hapitu in Canaan
• Andrew George, The Epic of Gillgamesh. Penguin. 2000. ISBN 978-0-14-044721-7. Includes toponyms for Canaan
• James B. Pritchard, The Ancient Near East. OUP. 1968. Jerusalim, siege and fall
• Shaika Haya Ali Al Khalifa and Michael Rice, Bahrain through the Ages. KPI. 1986. ISBN 978-0-7103-0112-3.
• Dr. Muhammed Abdul Nayeem, Prehistory and Protohistory of the Arabian Peninsula. Hyderabad. 1990.
• Michael RoafCultural Atlas of Mesopotamia and the Ancient Near East. Equinox. 1990. ISBN 0-8160-2218-6.
• Gerard HermThe Phoenicians. William Morrow^ Co. Inc. 1975. ISBN 0-688-02908-6.Jerusalim pp 33,84-106 passim, 123,125,126,145,149,150,154

Marine Archaeology Rederences

• Lionel CassonThe Ancient Mariners. PUP. 1991. ISBN 978-0-691-01478-4.
• George BassA History of Seafaring. Walker and Company. 2004. ISBN 08027-0-3909.

Egyptological References

• Michael RiceEgypt's Making. Routledge. 1990. ISBN 0-415-06454-6.
• GillingsMathematics in the time of the Pharoahs. MIT Press. 1972. ISBN 0262070456.
• Somers Clarke and R. EnglebachAncient Egyptian Construction and Architecture. Dover. 1990. ISBN 0486264858.

Linguistic References

• GardinerEgyptian Grammar. Griffith Institute. 1990. ISBN 0900416351.
• Antonio Loprieno Ancient Egyptian. CUP. 1995. ISBN 0-521-44849-2.
• Marie-Loise Thomsen, Mesopotamia 10 The Sumerian Language. Academic Press. 1984. ISBN 87-500-3654-8.
• Silvia LuraghiOld Hittite Sentence Structure. Routledge. 1990. ISBN 0415047358.
• MalloryIn Search of the Indo Europeans. Thames and Hudson. 1989. ISBN 050027616-1.
• Anne H. GrotonFrom Alpha to Omega. Focus Information group. 1995. ISBN 0941051382.
• HinesOur Latin Heritage. Harcourt Brace. 1981. ISBN 0153894687.
• Nicholas Awde and Putros SamanoThe Arabic Alphabet. Billing & Sons Ltd. 1986. ISBN 0863560350.

Classical References

• VitruviusThe Ten Books on Architecture. Dover. 1960.
• Claudias PtolemyThe Geography. Dover. 1991. ISBN 048626896. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: length (help)
• HerodotusThe History. William Brown. 1952. War with Judah, Sennacherib, siege of 701 BC

Historical References

• Michael GrantThe Rise of the Greeks. Charles Scribners Sons. 1987.

Mathematical References

• Lucas N. H. Bunt, Phillip S.Jones, Jack D. Bedient The Historical Roots of Elementary Mathematics. Dover. 1976. ISBN 0486255638. Includes references to a Days Journey and a Days Sail

Mensurational References

• H Arthur KleinThe World of Measurements. Simon and Schuster. 1976.Includes references to a Days Journey and a Days Sail
• Francis H. MoffittSurveying. Harper & Row. 1987. ISBN 0060445548.

Architectural References

• R. A. CordingleyNorman's Parallel of the Orders of Architecture. Alex Trianti Ltd. 1951.

Medieval References

• H Johnathan Riley SmithThe Atlas of the Crusades place names in Canaan during the crusades. Swanston. 1990. ISBN 0723003610.
• H.W. KochMedieval Warfare. Prentice Hall. 1978. ISBN 0135736005.

"Kedarlagomer"

That's not how this works. Some parts of LXX can be OK evidence for consonants, and while there are variant consonants here, not likely ones, but you'd need a better understanding of the etymology and reconstruction of the vowels to assume anything, let alone "it was the same but with a gamma." What language/period are you trying to imitate? Proto-Semitic doesn't = 3rd century BC Hebrew. If it went through Elamite, we know nothing about Elamite phonology. Plus we really know nothing about the second half of the name at all. Then there's the vowels, for which LXX and Elamite are almost useless.

"Elamite: Kudurlakamar" would be a mostly baseless guess that (IMO) wouldn't belong on wiki. "Ancient: Kedarlagomer" is nonsense.

Would a g be a better technical representation of an ghayn anyway? Conflating it with gimel? GordonGlottal (talk) 23:55, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

@GordonGlottal: One, that is absolutely how that works. The Septuagint preserves, in numerous places, the phenome of /ɣ~ʁ/ in words with the ayin that have since subsumed into the regular glottal stop ayin, Gaza, Gomorrah, even preserving it in words like Peor and Athaliah. This is something that can be very easily seen. The same is also true (and further demonstrable) with preservations of the dual Heth phenomes /ħ/ and /x/.

Two, we not only know what Elamite phonology was like, with both the corpus of Linear and Cuneiform nearly entirely deciphered, but the concordance of g~k in Elamite has exactly nothing to do with the ghayin in pre-Masorete Hebrew. Nebuchadnezzar's name in Old Persian was Nabukadracara, that doesn't mean the Native Akkadian reading Nabu-kudurri-usur, suddenly becomes called into question.

Third, no, "g" would not be a better representation, because /g/ was not what the ghayn of ancient Hebrew represented. As stated above, it was /ɣ/ or /ʁ/, and is transliterated as ġ just as it is in Arabic, Ugaritic, South Arabian, and literally every other Semitic language which includes it in their phonological profile. Zhomron (talk) 02:13, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't understand this response at all. Why "Kedarlagomer" if you agree a g isn't appropriate? And I don't think you appreciate what I was saying -- the reconstruction of ghayin in 3rd century BCE hebrew is fine, but it doesn't translate into P-S etymon "Kedarlagomer." There would obviously be many more differences. GordonGlottal (talk) 16:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

@GordonGlottal: I was confused by your mentions of PS so I took a look at the edit. Yes , it seems the “ancient” linked is Proto-Semitic – which indeed is a highly inappropriate correlation to make. I was under the impression the “Ancient” linked Biblical Hebrew. I think that’s the crux of this misunderstanding. Yes, PS is far beyond well understood, and the reconstruction I was making only applies to BH, not PS.

You may also still be confused. g ≠ ġ, and ġ is what was used in the translit., not g. Zhomron (talk) 17:29, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I see -- my bad on the g. The reconstruction of pre-Masoretic Hebrew is its own well-developed field. I think Benjamin Suchard's approach is the most solid for the moment (there are some minor errors in his thesis but not relevant to here) and one could use it to reconstruct pre-Masoretic versions of most words. The result would not be "kedarlaġomer". But anyway WP:OR. GordonGlottal (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I take it that you two are aware that doing your own philology is strictly not the Wikipedia way? Achar Sva (talk) 22:43, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

As I said in the edit summary when I moved to talk and in the last comment. It's an interesting topic and a way of avoiding future disputes or errors. GordonGlottal (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

Timeline/Identification - Kudur-Enlil

https://www.academia.edu/79921459/A_Simple_Chronology_for_Biblical_Archaeology

My reconstruction of the biblical timeline places Abraham 13 generations before the historical David(998-975BC), or roughly 1297-1274BC. There is a confluence of similar names around this time.

At this time, we have Ibiranu II(Abraham) in Ugarit(1274-1251BC). Tudhaliya 4(Tidal) as Hittite(1274-1251BC). Kudur-Enlil(Chedorlaomer) in Babylon(1251-1228BC)