Talk:Cheese (recreational drug)

This is an outrageous article

A search on Google for (cheese cold medicine "black tar heroin"[1]), [2](Published in:2002) reveals that this rumour appears to have been around for far longer than the article suggests. It seems like it was picked up from a joke site cheeseheroinkills.org (dead), and propagated onwards from there. Google will not date articles before 1st Feb 2001 nicely, so it's hard to find older sources, but of those published after 2001, not a single one lists a primary source. It seems like the papers are just referencing each other referencing each other ad nauseum.

This article needs to be pending deletion. Anareon (talk)

Sources

cheese!!!!!!!!!!! it reads like a hoax. - FrancisTyers · 20:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• What... newspaper articles aren't good enough? WhisperToMe 20:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont think newspaper articles are good enough alone to write an article about Aspensti 15:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

• EDIT: I found http://www.dea.gov/programs/forensicsci/microgram/mg0506/mg0506.html WhisperToMe 21:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Grand, we should cite that then. Much more authoritative :) - FrancisTyers · 21:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

• EDIT: Read article cited in citation #2 (as of 3/27/08) and found nothing there to support the claim that diphenhydramine is an "opiate potentiator". Left text alone but moved citation #2 back and added a "citation needed" notice after the unsubstantiated statement. - ExoSynth 05:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Stupid

This is just stupid, almost grounds for deletion. We are going to name every form of heroin depending on what its cut with? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aspensti (talk • contribs)

It seems worthy of having an article since I haven't been able to turn on the news in the past 2-3 months without some sort of story about cheese deaths or busts. Now if you want to complain how about going after the person than named it. How do you not laugh at hearing someone dead from a cheese overdose? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.97.20.102 (talk) 16:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

If you think it should be merged into Heroin, put up the merge tag. - FrancisTyers · 15:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I dont think it should be merged, I dont think its a noteable form of heroin. If I write an artice about mixing cocaine and vitamin b12 and I call it "Salami" does that mean that my article should be merged with the main cocain article?Aspensti 15:22, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Then AfD it, but unfortunately I suspect that people will disagree, since there are several sources about it, including the DEA (I know... since when did they know about drugs) :) Honestly, I think the idea is absurd, but it is (unfortunately) verifiable. - FrancisTyers · 15:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Once there are several reports about it and it has started to become a major problem discussed in reliable sources from at least one major metropolitan area, then it ceases to be an article about something you invented for yourself in the kitchen sink at home. It is worthy at the least of a dedicated section of the article on heroin, if you care to revisit the merging suggestion. I personally came to this article precisely because I wanted information on cheese itself, as I'm teaching in one of the schools where it's a problem. Lawikitejana 22:21, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

We have decided to keep the article :) WhisperToMe 23:44, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. I'd wager no editor has ever seen or heard of "cheese" referring to a type of heroin. Hysterial unfounded news reports and .gov websites jumping on the bandwagon don't make it verifiable or notable. There is no way anyone with sense would introduce a "starter form" of heroin nor that it would be actively marketed to minors. It's pretty obvious to anyone with common sense or who's ever been involved in heroin that this is utter trash. Someone please AfD it again. 131.111.8.99 22:02, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

131.111.8.99's criticism has no validity and no merit. The issue will not be considered further. WhisperToMe 03:02, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I’ve heard of it and used it for 10 years. The only thing they get wrong is no one use’s acetaminophen, they use sleep aids with just diphenhydramine like simply sleep, and sominex. It’s actually very difficult to snort with acetaminophen in it has it makes it clump up and turn to an almost paste like substance. Diphenhydramine on the other hand makes it a nice fine powder and seems to potentiate the heroin. Since both make you sleepy. Also diphenhydramine is an antihistamine and therefore helps with the itchy skin associated with heroin use. 2603:8080:2D05:4A00:3978:F62A:50EF:5D0 (talk) 21:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

I read some of the comments and I have to respond by saying just because tou haven't heard of the herion combined w/ tylenol pm reffered to as "cheese" doen't mean it doesn't exist. While driving on 2/5/07 to school I was listening to a news report on 1060am redio news and they were reporting that amongst elementary school kids this form of herion is referred to as " cheese". Remember, this is a new, young generation that refers to the same drugs that adults used years ago as a different street name.Wake up to reality. I spoke to my 14 yr old son about this topic and he is very aware of "cheese"--- it exists !!! It's even being used byteens in out school district. We've had 17 overdoses already at the beginning of summer in 2006 from herion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.115.71.39 (talk • contribs)

This should definitely be deleted, or at a maximum just a footnote in the heroin article. It is basically heroin mixed with Benadryl (Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride). Benadryl is a sleep aid and allergy medication; it probably doesn't even effect heroin too much and is most likely being used to rip off the kids by cutting the heroin more than it already is cut... and because they are kids, they aren't as well informed as adult drug users and probably think the "sleepy" effect is something special added on after the initial heroin high, even though it is 25mg of Benadryl which runs at around 1 cent... This "new drug" isn't anything special, and it definitely isn't new. It is just HEROIN and BENADRYL. Delete this article, it is pointless.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.238.59.232 (talk • contribs)

• That's not the criteria, guest. The criteria is whether the subject is notable and verifiable. The News reports and DEA reports satisfy both requirements. Your personal feelings do not matter at all. WhisperToMe 02:36, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is verifiable, but is a local news report really the standard for creating an entire Wikipedia article? Seems pretty weak, but as you said, it does fit the criteria. Again, I will suggest it should be 1 sentence in the heroin article.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.238.59.232 (talk • contribs)

I understand to an extent: local news tends to be ill-informed and sensationalistic (sex bracelets, anyone?). But the DEA is pretty well-informed, and we have a reference from them. As I said in the AfD debate, I'd be fine with it being merged, but I'm fine with it being a separate page too. --Galaxiaad 11:01, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, the White House wrote about it too: http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/cheese/ WhisperToMe 03:26, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, this is a matter of whether or not it deserves its OWN Wikipedia article as a UNIQUE important substance. I mean, even CRACK doesn't have its OWN article (merged with COCAINE), and CRACK is undoubtedly more known and had more social impact than "CHEESE HEROIN". This still needs to be looked at for a MERGE with HEROIN (or just removed from Wikipedia).

Jeez, FreakOut GiveIn, no. Why do you think news stations across the USA reported about this drug? The drug became feared in Dallas as it is more accessible than traditional heroin. Also, crack is another form of cocaine (its freebase form, and, yes, freebase has an article) - Though it could get its own article when the cocaine article becomes too big. Cheese is a mixture of heroin and Tylenol PM. WhisperToMe 22:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I still don't understand the point of this REGIONAL/LOCAL drug having its own unique Wikipedia article. As said, in comparison, CRACK is included in the 'COCAINE' article, and CRACK undoubtedly had a much bigger impact on society than "CHEESE HEROIN".

YOU SAID: "The drug became feared in Dallas as it is more accessible than traditional heroin."

You have no citations that prove that "CHEESE HEROIN" is more accessible than "HEROIN". I doubt there has been a study released about the availability of "CHEESE HEROIN" compared to "HEROIN". Hearsay.

I still must advise this article be merged with heroin or deleted.—Preceding unsigned comment added by FreakOut GiveIn (talk • contribs)

Read this: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cheese (recreational drug)

I am not saying that Cheese heroin had more impact on society than crack cocaine. Besides, your point is flawed. The drug has notability (DEA reported about it), doesn't it? If you want crack cocaine to be a separate article, go here: Talk:Cocaine

Other parts of the U.S. were/are concerned that this drug would spread to their lands - hence the articles from Indiana, etc. WhisperToMe 23:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I will discuss this with the people who made the "KEEP" decision in the deletion article. This article wasn't discussed enough to be given "KEEP" status in my opinion. This article is notable local issue only, so it definitely needs to be looked at more in-depth. Yourself and others will be contacted about a re-evaluation of the status of this article.

Also, you refer me to the COCAINE TALK section, when I was using it as a REFERENCE of how this article SHOULD be handled. When I use it as an EXAMPLE, I am not actually |DISCUSSING| CRACK'S STATUS, but maybe you misunderstood me. CRACK is merely an EXAMPLE of how CHEESE should be LISTED on Wikipedia. wiki wiki what?

Again, I will be contacting everyone in the original deletion article and hopefully this will be resolved correctly.—Preceding unsigned comment added by FreakOut GiveIn (talk • contribs)

Freakout, it has been resolved correctly. Just because cheese is not as widely known as crack does not mean cheese is not notable. That argument is terrible. Get rid of that argument. Cheese is notable as the drug has had press attention from all over the United States despite the fact that the only widespread use of Cheese, as of 2007, is in Dallas. I found more press documents discussing cheese... WhisperToMe 00:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's kind of the definition of notability, isn't it? Personally, I think there should be a separate article for crack, and it certainly doesn't make sense that there would be an article for cheese and not for crack. I think this might be a case of recentism, and that in a few months cheese may be once again unheard of. But we don't know yet, obviously...

And to FreakOut, the article currently exists because the consensus in the deletion discussion was "keep". Even though a merge doesn't require a deletion discussion, you don't want to take it upon yourself to merge when not that long ago consensus was to keep. Articles can be renominated for deletion, but I think it's supposed to be after a certain amount of time. But even now, if you can get more (established) editors in here saying that they agree with merging, I think it would be reasonable to do so. --Galaxiaad 01:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Oh, you can also put a "merge to" tag on this article and a "merge from" tag on heroin (the tags are at Wikipedia:Template messages/Cleanup#Merging and splitting), to bring it to the attention of people who watch the heroin article. --Galaxiaad 02:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

This is a great example of Recentism now that you mention it... this "Cheese" was around for years before it 'got big' from a few local news articles Erowid Vault Citation, 2001. So, I suppose we can let this die down and have it deleted in a few months after it 'goes away' from the regional area in which it received media coverage.

PS: Whisper, I wasn't arguing that it isn't notable, I said it was - I was giving the CRACK situation as an EXAMPLE of how a MORE NOTABLE substance is merged, when CHEESE isn't merged. The comment was no assault on CHEESE'S notability; I just used the CRACK as an example, but anyway - lets just give it 3 months and then delete it when the local news stories aren't as frequent. - FreakOut

• Freakout, deleting after three months kinda defeats the purpose - if the incident had stirred up so much press, it is inherently notable forever. In fact, this drug has been receiving press for almost a year (starting before April of 2006). If it spreads elsewhere... it will get more press. WhisperToMe 05:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Crack cocaine now has an article: Crack cocaine WhisperToMe 05:16, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

This does sound like a hoax...but according to one person (look on the Usenet newsgroup: alt.drugs.hard), it has been around for ten :years or more...obviously I don't know how accurate that is. But the dumbest part is the fact that these kids are adding Tylenol PM :which has almost no psychoactive properties to their heroin, just diphenhydramine which in large doses can cause some psychoactive :affects, but in low dosages just causes drowsiness. The acetaminophen in it is horrible for the nose and liver and will actually :make it hard to absorb any heroin at all, so pretty much all these kids are doing is destroying there liver, not getting much heroin :in their system (which I know isn't exactly a bad thing, but it is a waste of the heroin that these kids want) and it makes it so :that the kids don't know how much heroin they are getting, which means if someone sells them heroin and says it is cheese then they :will take to much and overdose. This is no different than cutting heroin with any other adulterants. The only thing this article :should say is that uneducated kids are making heroin more dangerous than it already by adding more toxic chemicals to it. Also just :because the DEA talks about it does NOT mean that it is significant...that Micrograms newsletter mentions all unique forms of drugs. :If we have this article then we should have one for every form that they mention.

Heroin is heroin is heroin, no matter what it is cut with or if it is tar, powder, liquid, pills, etc...so I think this should be :merged with Heroin and so should Black Tar Heroin and all other forms. I am curious as to why people are so set on keeping this :separate.

I also think that crack cocaine should be combined with cocaine, because it is just smokable cocaine, however, at least crack :cocaine has a 25+ year history and has had many affects on many communities. Cheese on the other hand is just ignorant kids that :are not taught accurate information in schools about substances hearing about this "new" drug called cheese and think that somehow :it is safer than heroin, when in actuality it is the same thing except with a toxic (though non-addictive) substance added to it.

If you really want to create a separate article, it should just say "HEY KIDS...IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO CHEESE...THEN JUST SNORT :SOME TYLENOL PM INSTEAD OF WASTING MONEY ON LOW-QUALITY DOPE BECAUSE THAT IS ALL CHEESE IS...OTHERWISE DO SOME RESEARCH AND JUST DO :NORMAL ADULTERATED HEROIN...OR BETTER YET GO BACK TO SCHOOL AND LEARN SOMETHING BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO YOUNG TO USE DRUGS AND WAIT :UNTIL YOU ARE A RESPONSIBLE EDUCATED ADULT!!!"

One other thing arguing for keeping this as WhisperToMe said in the deletion debate, the heroin article is very long, so that is the :only reason to keep it...but maybe someone can find a reliable UNBIASED source (maybe a medical doctor) about this, that talks about :the affects of Tylenol PM and heroin more rather than rehash information from the heroin page...then maybe it should not be :merged...or maybe just have links to both heroin and Tylenol PM, since that is all this is. Cheese is just something made by :ignorant kids who think that somehow it is different/better/safer than heroin, when it isn't anything special.

One other question, anyone here actually use cheese (I haven't) or know people that have, that might be able to say if cheese is :actually marketed as being different than heroin. How do we know that cheese isn't actually just slang for heroin that kids :use(slang for drugs gets made up and changed all the time) and parents/teachers/authority figures just confiscated some low-quality :heroin cut with Tylenol PM and the kid it was taken from just happened to call it cheese then they thought that some huge conspiracy :was going on to get kids addicted to heroin through this substance. As anyone involved in the drug scene knows, dealers only rarely :try to actually push drugs on kids/people and information released from "informed" sources like parents, schools, the DEA, etc. :often misinterpret things they see in the drug world and pass on misinformation. Or even worse, they will spread drug propaganda, :so that funding will be increased to stop the war on (some) drugs.

Anyway, I have been rambling long enough, I hope I got some point across, even though I think I wrote too much and might have lost a :lot of readers. I am going to pass this page on to others in the heroin scene, both users and doctors and see if they have anything :to add.

Weephar 22:56, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Weephar, you will have to have the doctors write reports about the drug.. because we cannot just take your word for it. See, on Wikipedia, information works on a "guilty until proven innocent" principle. Also: "As anyone involved in the drug scene knows, dealers only rarely try to actually push drugs on kids/people and information released from "informed" sources like parents, schools, the DEA, etc. often misinterpret things they see in the drug world and pass on misinformation." - And what is your source for this? - News media outlets, by Wikipedia standards, are credible sources, so we take their "word for it." Now, local news media outlets may exaggerate things a bit, but "Cheese" has been described by national news media outlets as well as by the U.S. Federal Government. WhisperToMe 02:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Please read below...thanks. Also there are many articles on stopthedrugwar.org that can show this. Is that a reliable source...it ::is a news outlet, and it specializes on the war on drugs, so I think that it should be more reliable than local news outlets, even ::though it is biased(but so is the DEA site).

Also, WhisperToMe, I just realized we have talked about this topic through AIM, so feel free to IM me, or I will IM you when I see ::you on.

(Added user name)

Weephar 06:29, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Can someone be hooked on heroin in one try?

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA050406.heroin.KENS.90a1956.html says one can.

"So far, Dallas districts have found cheese with up to an 8 percent heroin purity level, which is just enough to hook a first-time user."

Now, how many of you feel like this is enough of a source for the assertion that an 8% purity level is enough to begin an addiction? WhisperToMe 02:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

WhisperToMe, do books by doctors count as credible sources? I have read many books about heroin and other opiates...and they will tell you that people will NOT get addicted to heroin and other opiates the first time...otherwise people would be addicted to any opiate that people take for the smallest toothache to the most debilitating cancer and any taken for recreation. I can cite these(I am on vacation now, so I don't have access at the moment, but can by March 11). I think that a book by a doctor is MUCH more credible than a media outlet that cares more about getting people to read their newspapers than actually reporting facts. Media is big business so these newspapers will report things to get people to read their newspapers and so are these government agencies. If people are not scared of drugs, then there will be no more need for these agencies. That is why whenever one drug's amount of use goes down, another goes up...or at least as reported by the news agencies. It seems like every 5-10 years there is a new drug epidemic. Right now I think we are in a transition from methamphetamine to methadone, which I think is because of Anna Nicole Smith and her son's death from methadone, we will see if that pans out.

Speaking of methamphetamine, the news media outlets have been talking about that epidemic for a long time and saying it is reaching epidemic levels", but if you look at the facts put out by the government (your trusted source), use levels have remained constant (or even dropped) for a while now, so I don't know how that can be an epidemic if use is dropping.

Like I said, a lot drug facts put out by news agencies has mistakes in it...people are human and have been told certain things about drugs since they were young, so it is easy to believe this propaganda. There is a ton of misinformation about substances, and I want to try to fix at least some of this...and one place to do this is Wikipedia, where people come for unbiased information. Not just the government's sites where they just talk about the risks {and exaggerate these risks, look at what they say about cannabis[for example, most of the profits do NOT contribute to terrorism, like that super bowl ad from a few years back said. Terrorism is supported mostly by Afghanistani heroin and most of that heroin goes to Europe])}, nor users which might downplay risks. Now I know not everything that these places say is false...the bottom line is drugs are risky, so if you do indulge, be careful and get REAL facts.

I know I am not a credible source and I would need to get a credible source to write a report for it to make an entry. I am also having trouble getting credible people to contribute, but I will keep working on it. But I can find written sources for some of the things I have said. Unfortunetly, in the case of cheese, all I have found is one short article from the DEA that just noted it in their drug trends newsletter and a bunch of newspapers without much credibility. That article that you quote doesn't look reliable enough to me, what are their sources for the quote about heroin being addicted in the first use.

It is true that heroin is not addictive the first time it is used...but it is also true that no one who does NOT try heroin gets addicted.

Now I know that I could be wrong about some of the things I have said, but most of what I have said has been verified by me with a lot of research and I can show reliable sources that prove most of what I have said. Obviously I have to go back through my notes, which I apologize because I do not have access to. I am not sure where others get their drug information from, but I would say that if your only sources are "newsertainment" sources and the government, then I urge you to explore more sources...the war on (some) drugs is ridiculous and causes more problems than it helps. I can provide some sources.

Also, doesn't it seem odd that the real heroin entry says nothing about heroin being addicted in one use, but cheese is??

I have some questions about Wikipedia, as I haven't done many contributions and I want to make sure I follow protocol. What counts as a reliable source? What would I have to do to make my own report that would count as a reliable source? Does it have to be published? I am sure that these rules are all laid out on the site, and if so, just say and I will find them (I am tired now and don't feel like looking, but if I don't hear back by Sunday, then I will look on my own) or you can answer them, whatever is easier.

I will work on getting my sources in order and try to get some more credible people to comment on this, but I am rambling again (I really take misinformation about drugs that could lead to people's deaths seriously, I am a firm believer in harm reduction), so I will stop now. Also, we need to have true information on Wikipedia...otherwise it will be just as unreliable as someone making stuff up and when I see misinformation then I wonder about the validity of other articles. I think that WIkipedia is great, but I want to make sure it is reliable so I feel good telling others that it is reliable. I await your responses and other's responses eagerly. Thanks for reading.

(edited and added my user name) (figured out how to indent)

Weephar 06:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

One other thing showing the inaccuracies of this article...purity does not determine the addiction potential of a drug...if a person takes a gram of heroin that is 10% pure then they are getting 100 mg of heroin which would be the same as taking 100 mg of 100% pure heroin...it isn't the purity that gets them high/addicted, it is how much is in there system and how often it is used along with a bunch of psychological factors. Just FYI.

Now I need to take a break as I have been writing for WAY too long.

Weephar 07:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Weephar, books indeed count. I guess we can leave the text out of the article :) WhisperToMe 07:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. A news article isn't a reliable source of medical information, and no first-time user would develop a physical dependence (the definition is that the person would go through withdrawal if he didn't continue to get heroin). A psychological addiction is more complicated, really just meaning it's hard to define. I guess it's possible that the news article means that 8% is enough for someone to feel and to want again, which would be the beginning of a psychological addiction. That's kind of a stretch though. I definitely think that bit is best left out. It would be good to find a medical source saying that that isn't enough to get addicted (it's so hard to find one because no one wants to say "it's not as dangerous as you think"), but it wouldn't really be relevant info to add to the cheese article anyway. It was just an offhand (unsourced) comment by a reporter, and I don't think we need to refute it specifically. --Galaxiaad 07:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Brass Eye

This sounds like the spoof from TV show 'Brass Eye' that resulted in questions being asked in the British Parliment about a made up drug called 'Cake', see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass_Eye. Hilarious. - Daviesi 14:52, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem

Its amazing and unbelievable how adults come to this page and argue about weather or not the article about the drug "cheese" should be posted or not. As a teenager, i believe that the thing you should be debating about is how to solve the problem of minors using this new type of drug instead of arguing about the article. There are many teens out there that need your help and ya sure are not helping with this. I really encourage ya to leave this how it is and start helping this kids. Be and example to them. Thats what I am doing now. CHILD OF THE FATHER

I guess economic opportunities are the way to go...something meaningful to do, in general. Dispensing with the Prussian system of public education would be a good start, IMHO.--Joel 02:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't for solving problems, it is supposed to be an unbiased data base of encyclopedic information. No one thinks that 'cheese' is not a problem, they just want to be able to look up what it is on this website. THIS ARTICLE JUST NEEDS TO BE CLEANED UP.

No other drug articles leave out chemical COMPOSITION, EFFECTS of the drug, etc. The article is sloppy, and if it isn't cleaned up, it needs to be merged with the "Heroin" article, or at least the "Acetaminophen" article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.126.66 (talk) 20:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Another source for "schools with cheese"

This article from WFAA Channel 8 states that five NW Dallas schools have issues with cheese. This article cites W.T. White, North Dallas, and Thomas Jefferson high schools: http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa070301_mo_cheesearrest.e0aeae2.html

WhisperToMe 04:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Many of the articles presently listed in the footnotes name those same schools, plus two of the middle schools that feed into them (one of which is on a lot adjacent to the high school). However, the deaths noted in the main article show that the problem does extend beyond those five. So far, I haven't seen the need to get more specific than "schools in the northwest quadrant of Dallas" because getting more specific is not meaningful to those outside the city and not necessary for those within the city (as they've heard it again and again).

A friend e-mailed me last week to say that one of the schools had been discussed on "the news" (she didn't say which station) as now being "drug-free," but I haven't been able to find a reference for that claim yet. All I have found is an indication that a drug dog was used to search that school, and in that article, it said that "two pills" -- it doesn't say what they were, and it probably wasn't known at the time, though cheese hasn't been said to come in a pill form -- were found on the floor, so that doesn't support what she wrote. More to come ... Lawikitejana 21:12, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This is years later, but Cary Middle School was also known to have Cheese problems: Danser, Taylor. "Principal working to change perception of Cary Middle School ." The Dallas Morning News. August 23, 2013. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:22, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

New article in DMN with additional info

The latest Dallas Morning News article says that

• as many as 17 teens in Dallas County have died with heroin and diphenhydramine in their systems between 2005 and 2007 (it also discusses the basis for concluding that this means they overdosed on 'cheese') - that figure excludes the recent death of Fernando Cortez, whose results apparently aren't back yet
• of these 17 deaths, 11 victims' families say they used 'cheese'
• the deaths are all over Dallas County, including among students in the suburbs of Coppell, Garland, Mesquite, Cockrell Hill, and Grand Prairie
• diphenhydramine alone in high doses causes hallucinations and, in extreme cases, death - also that it may be popular as an additive to counteract the effects of coming down from the heroin, or to deal with/hide the runny nose from the snorting
• the deaths in Dallas County are evenly divided between Hispanic and non-Hispanic White - no deaths found outside these two ethnic groups

It also analyzes more deeply why the number of deaths from 'cheese' overdose was not so apparent initially, and discusses similarities between this and the rash of teen heroin deaths in Plano in the 1990s, in which at least some of the users had consumed heroin mixed with a diphenhydramine-containing sleep aid.

I mention this here because the newspaper article needs to be mined further for details to add to the WP article. When I see the hard-copy version, I'll be able to identify page numbers. For now, see: 'Cheese' crisis runs deep, The Dallas Morning News, April 15, 2007

Note that the article does mention that one "lesson" learned from the Plano crisis is that people respond to numbers, so some people certainly can (and will) argue that the article's figures constitute a scare tactic or the like. — Lawikitejana 02:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

It is real

My friend recently died of cheese, it is real. Here is the article before the toxicology http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/city/collin/allen/stories/042107dnmetcolonyOD.2eb5afd6.html It was found in her system and many people are starting to use it now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.178.200.225 (talk • contribs) 16:29, 4 May 2007

I am aware of the case you're writing about (so sorry you lost your friend). I haven't added it so far because the only printed source I have seen that confirms the connection to cheese heroin was her mother's blog, and Wikipedia generally doesn't rely on personal blogs for information. If an article comes out in the Morning News or a similar source saying that her death was from this form of heroin, it may be added to the article.

Don't take it hard if the name is not added at that point, though ... unfortunately, as more and more people die in these situations, it becomes less appropriate to keep adding the individual names, because an encyclopedia article isn't intended to become a memorial. That's what pages like her mom's blog serve to do, and while that's important in life, it's not what encyclopedias do. Lawikitejana 02:38, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Interview today on Fox News (7/19/07), they were all mixed up. The host said anti-histamines were banned (but she meant sudafed), and they are saying that anti-histamines are pulled from the shelves in most states, when they probably arent... this officer is saying they are snorting it for the Tylenol... so stupid. These people have no idea what the drugs are even, yet they have people talking about it on there. At least the host said, "Why don't they just snort the heroin?", and the officer said it is cheaper to get cheese, so one can obviously assume these kids are probably just getting jipped with like... 1/16 heroin, rest tylenol probably, and they think the high is heroin, when it is Benadryl. I know this doesn't matter, but I thought I'd put it here to show that it is still in the news today. (I didn't think it would still be in the news right now.) FreakOut GiveIn 14:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying anything about the pricing/cut, but the "high" from Benadryl isn't comparable to an opioid high. In fact, it's mostly described as highly unpleasant (see anticholinergic for the effects of antihistamine overdose). --Galaxiaad 16:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Deaths due to cheese

This section should be a description of verifiable trends in cheese fatalities, not an aimless litany of anecdotal cases. If there were only one or two verifiable deaths due to cheese, this section would make sense. But it's just grown into a long list of non-notable drug users. We don't do this on other articles about recreational drugs, and shouldn't do it here. —ptk✰fgs 18:37, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• We are addressing that - Lawikitejana stated that no more deaths should be added. WhisperToMe 22:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Is "Cheese" really verifiable?

Without any primary source information, the "news outlets" are presenting neither notable nor verifiable information. From reading the articles, it seems they all repeat the same claims from the DEA newsletter. I have to agree with the previous posters who argue for deletion.

I argue that the DEA document that forms the best source of this article makes unsubstantiated claims about the occurrence of "cheese" as a new drug. The article reports 72 encounters with the heroin/diphenhydramine mixture in a one year period. Given the geographically-confined area in which this "new drug" has appeared (the "Dallas Independent School District Police Department") it's more likely that one area supplier is adulterating their heroin with Tylenol PM. Should their be an article on heroin mixed with quinine? For this was the primary adulterant in heroin for several decades of the 20th century.

If one reads the entire Microgram newsletter they will also see an article on marijuana gumballs called "Greenades". Does every preparation of a known drug deserve an article?

The DEA, as a Federal law enforcement agency, has an entrenched interest in disseminating biased or skewed information. Their mandate is not to increase knowledge about the health and psychosocial effects of applied pharmacology. Their mandate is to eliminate the use of any substance that they are thereafter legislated to eliminate. This is akin to using US military press reports to write articles about the success of the Iraq War. They have an obvious bias.

Furthermore, due to the prevalence of diphenhydramine in OTC cold and allergy preparations, should it really surprise anyone that some percentage of heroin overdose patients have detectable levels in their blood? The relevant information is what percentage of heroin OD's this really is (e.g., is it higher than the percentage of non-overdose deaths with detectable levels of diphenhyramine?).Fluxist 18:59, 12 June 2007}}

Listen, here's a secret. If we want to believe you, you will have to have the right qualifications and you will have to publish your work. That way, it would count as a Wikipedia:Reliable source. Most news articles from respected journalists are reliable sources. End of story. WhisperToMe 20:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I, for one, would support reducing this article to a short paragraph, and redirecting from here to the appropriate heroin article. Something like this should suffice:

Heroin mixed with diphenhydramine is known as "cheese". The combination made local news when students in Dallas, Texas begain snorting it.

That's really about all we need. People have been mixing drugs unwisely for as long as they've been taking drugs at all. —ptk✰fgs 19:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that would be a terrible idea. "People have been mixing drugs unwisely for as long as they've been taking drugs at all." - But do all drug cocktails as Cheese get this much media attention? Surely not all drug cocktails ever invented had entire articles written about them by ABC News. WhisperToMe 20:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, local news outfits tend to move from one scare-story drug fad to the next, feeding off the rotting corpses of misinformation and exaggeration like vultures. Kids have been OD'ing on heroin for years. Dealers have been cutting heroin with other crap for years. This article is about a heroin fad in Dallas. Great. Merge and redirect. —ptk✰fgs 21:40, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

PTK, this is no longer the territory of local news outfits. Does ABC News sound local to you? WhisperToMe 22:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Um. Merge where? Rklawton 22:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The heroin article would become too bloated. Don't merge. Also, articles about Cheese have been coming out for over three years. WhisperToMe 22:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I have a rule for you - I want you to read through all of the sources cited.

• 1. The sources have been continuing to post stories for years
• 2. Now national news organizations are writing stories about Cheese

Also, "drug fads" are encyclopedic topics, like it or not. Do not use faulty reasoning. Read Wikipedia:Notability. You may hate the topic, but that does not matter. WhisperToMe 22:33, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

EDIT: I have to add CNN to the list: http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/12/cheese.heroin/ WhisperToMe 22:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, heroin is a frequent topic of national news. The notability of heroin is not in dispute. Must we now have a separate article for every region that consumes heroin? How about a separate article for every street name of every drug? I don't hate this topic. I just don't see what makes it different from heroin except that it's in Texas and they're calling it cheese. —ptk✰fgs 22:49, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

So, did you read this slideshow made by ABC News? http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/popup?id=2851491&content=&page=1 - What happens to the tar heroin is that the people who make the heroin into cheese first add water and then mix crushed Tylenol PM tablets (I do not study illegal drugs, but I do not recall heroin usually containing mixed crushed Tylenol PM tablets). Shall I find an ingredient list of Tylenol PM to see what is added to the heroin? WhisperToMe 22:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I answered my own question and found this: http://www.tylenol.com/print.jhtml?id=tylenol/pain/pmlpfaqprint.inc#4_a

"What are the main ingredients in Tylenol PM? "Each gelcap/geltab/caplet of Tylenol PM contains 500 mg of the pain reliever, acetaminophen, and 25 mg of the sleep aid, diphenhydramine HCl.

"How is Tylenol PM different from Benadryl® brand products? "Each gelcap/geltab/caplet of Tylenol PM contains 500 mg of the pain reliever, acetaminophen, and 25 mg of the sleep aid, diphenhydramine HCl. Classified as an antihistamine with sedating properties, diphenhydramine is the same active ingredient found in many Benadryl® products. "

WhisperToMe 22:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• "Must we now have a separate article for every region that consumes heroin? How about a separate article for every street name of every drug?" - What separates this from other forms is the amount of national media attention and the constant media attention (This started around 2005 and has continued for years) - All we need to do is use press notability as our judge. If the variant is featured in so many articles across the US and in national media sources, then it can have its own article. If it does not garner attention, then it should be merged. WhisperToMe 22:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• As for why Cheese gained national attention - I notice that many of the articles state that the drug is cheap and that dealers target children (usually in middle and high school) WhisperToMe 23:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

I will say that my friends and I have been following the cheese business with mirth and amusement. We LOL'ed and LOL'ed when we read about the middle schoolers cheering when they found out the USA is #1 in durgzzz. —ptk✰fgs 03:57, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

So, I assume the discussion is over. WhisperToMe 04:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, recent comments indicate that the current consensus is to merge or delete. It just hasn't been justified why a small, regional trend of cutting heroin with a particular non-psychoactive adulterant should warrant a new article. As mentioned above, there are many adulterants commonly used in street heroin. This just isn't a new drug. Re-direct this topic heroin. Fluxist 03:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Twelve edits? And you are telling me this? I don't trust you, Fluxist. I fear the possibility of Wikipedia:Sockpuppets. WhisperToMe 04:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

You fear the possibility of sockpuppets? You must be rather meek. I am not a "sockpuppet", I just don't make many edits to wikipedia. Now, you haven't answered my comment; you're just changing the subject. And besides, nothing I said requires you to trust me. You don't trust that heroin is often adulterated with various substances? You don't trust that this mixture isn't a new drug? You don't trust that the majority of the users posting comments in this discussion disagree with you? Fluxist 23:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Fluxist, if you are a new user, I must inform you that most of the time, new users do not immediately ask for AFDs. Also, you have presented no proof of the allegations which you placed in the article, and your edits were reverted as vandalism (They were not reverted by me). See Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite your sources - I have every right to change the topic, because this discussion is a crock. If you can find a source backing up your claims, your edits would be okay. WhisperToMe 01:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I demand an immediate checkuser if you intend to pursue these allegations. File it right now. —ptk✰fgs 23:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Who is this addressed to, Ptkfgs? WhisperToMe 01:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You. If you're going to sling around sockpuppet accusations, you'd better file a checkuser request right now. —ptk✰fgs 02:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It was just on Fox News Channel(National) around 10 minutes ago (7/19/07), around a 3 minute segment with a Dallas police officer. The host and the officer were both clueless, but the entire segment was about "cheese", so yes, it is still verifiable as of 7/19/07. FreakOut GiveIn 14:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I just looked at the "Pricing of Cheese", and it says it is $5 for 1/4 a gram. This stuff seriously has to be 99% tylenol w/ a tiny bit of heroin in it (if any). The price of heroin on the streets (Pennsylvania) is $20 for around 1/16 of a gram, so just judging by that, this Cheese stuff probably has almost no heroin, I don't see how a dealer would be able to make money by putting ANY noticable amount of heroin in Tylenol PM, judging by the price of heroin. $2 heroin just isn't realistic in the drug world, I'm starting to doubt 'Cheese' as it is put in this article. I mean, the one OD was a guy who mixed the heroin and Benadryl himself (and gave it to his son who ODed), so he obviously didn't buy it mixed from a dealer. The dealers selling this for $2 a hit or $5 1/4 a gram are probably selling just Tylenol PM, otherwise, there would be no profit. I reason this because the price of 1/16 of a gram (Heroin) ($20), and 1/4 a gram (Cheese) ($5) are too far apart. The "cheese" would probably have no opiate effect on the person since it is 1/4 a gram for $5 (and a bag of heroin is so small, it takes like a half bag to get high on your first try [bag = $20]), so why would this stuff be so cheap? It is too cheap to be true, seriously. FreakOut GiveIn 15:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

• The price of heroin may be different in Dallas, though. Also, you would need Wikipedia:Reliable sources and to avoid Wikipedia:Original research in order to prove that point is valid. WhisperToMe 02:29, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I am fine with there existing a separate article for 'cheese,' but really, this article is very sloppy and needs to be cleaned up. I had never heard of cheese, and I came to Wikipedia to look it up. All other drug articles (including recreational drugs) include chemical composition, short term and long term effects, and AT LEAST just the effects of the drug (whether or not it produces hallucinations, etc). So far, I would never have known that it produces hallucinations unless I read the talk page. As a FREQUENT wikipedia user, I am really disappointed at the sloppiness of this article and User:WhisperToMe's and a lot of others' comments. We should want this to be a good, informative, unbiased description of the drug itself, it's ingredients, its immediate effects, the risks associated with it, one or two case studies that inform about it's emergence (the first articles in the deaths section would do), the regions of popularity, etc. Please consider this; I feel like I've learned little from the article (other than that Wikipedia is not as reliable as I thought), and I think that unless it is cleaned up, it should redirect and be added to the Heroin, Acetaminophen, or Benadryl articles, where at least people can read about what this drug really is and what it really does. PLEASE!!!!! Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.126.66 (talk) 20:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

GA Candidacy comments

At the moment, I do not feel this article meets the GA criteria, although I'm happy to give it a little while to improve. My concerns all refer to the criteria set forth at WP:WIAGA.

• 1b. The lede is not written as an overview, but rather contains information about pricing and addiction not covered elsewhere in the article. Also, who is Alfred Lindesmith? The layout also generally needs work. There are a large number of very short paragraphs that make the article feel choppy and disjointed.
• 3a. The article does not address significant aspects of the topic. Why is acetaminophen or diphenhydramine being used as a cutting agent? Why is this drug named "cheese"? Has there been any discussion about why this drug is originating in Dallas?
• 3b. The article is not written in summary style. The details of children who have overdosed occupy more of the article than content directly about the topic. As a result, the article is not broad in its coverage; it appears closer to a series of news reports than an encyclopedic treatment.
• 4. The general tone of the article might be more sensationalist (or at least more journalistic) than encyclopedic. Because at least one source (through comparison with Plano's heroin problems in the 1990s) implies that local authorities are playing up the numbers and impact of this situation in an effort to affect a solution, it is especially important to write with caution.
• 5. The article is not stable. Its history shows an ongoing series of edit wars, including reversions rising to the level of 3RR violations. The edit war aside, this is also a current event. How much is the content likely to change over the next three to six months?

- Serpent's Choice 02:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

All right; these are useful criticisms of the article in terms of the GA criteria (although some are more subtle than others). I shall see what I can do, or failing that, at least try to improve the article a bit more. Gracenotes^T § 02:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Note about 1B: Lindesmith has a Wikipedia article, so I linked to it :) WhisperToMe 15:26, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Because we are attributing a claim to him, we should also probably have a citation there. Serpent's Choice 15:28, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

In that case, I looked through the article and it says Lindesmith wrote:

"a 1938 essay entitled "A sociological theory of drug addiction". This paper appeared in the American Journal of Sociology and involved in-depth interviews with 50 so-called addicts."

"a full theoretical and empirical account of the nature of opiate addiction, culminating in his book Opiate Addictions in 1947 (republished as Addiction and Opiates in 1968)." - If anyone has access to either of the books, it would be great to find where Lindesmith states this and provide a citation. Should I look for the books? WhisperToMe 15:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Re: "why is it called 'cheese,'" a note to fellow editors - If you look through the articles, you'll see mentions of the resemblance to grated parmesan cheese. (When I first started teaching at my school, people compared it to the dust from Cheetos, which gave me the wrong impression as to the color, but that's a non-encyclopedic source, obviously.) If you feel the need to mention the theory that it's a corruption of chiva, I wouldn't give that one too much space because it seems less than credible given that most of the people who were caught with it were Hispanic. In my experience that's not a corruption that's likely to occur among anyone with that much exposure to Spanish or even Spanglish.

As for the details about the individuals, I wouldn't favor cutting out all of them, even though I keep chanting "Wikipedia is not a memorial." The ones I left in, I left in because there were notable things about the death that made it part of the growing alarm in the area. Witherspoon was an early case and one of the first to make the papers; Gutierrez was the youngest published case to that point, etc. I've gone back and tried to clean up those paragraphs.

The section on the pricing should be expanded with the info from the articles as to how those quoted theorized it relates to the spread of the drug. Otherwise you're going to start sounding like salespeople. Also, in posting info from one of the articles earlier this year (think it was the long one titled "Cheese crisis runs deep"), I think I pointed out that one of the experts said that diphenhydramine had characteristics of its own that were being underestimated in the deaths. This could go to the part about why that particular cutting agent; also, the relative ease of acquiring the PM meds in re: the youth of the users surely is discussed in a published source. There's been a recent article -- heavily syndicated -- in which experts complain about the use of "catchy" names and how that is big with news people. The Newsweek article doesn't seem to be mentioned yet, nor its critique in Slate. Lawikitejana 22:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The article is certainly better than when I first looked at it, but there is still quite a bit of work to be done to satisfy the GA criteria. In particular, the writing style and layout need to be addressed. There are a large number of one or two sentence paragraphs (not to mention the ultra-brief Pricing section, which either needs substantially expanded or folded into another heading), which are discouraged by WP:LAYOUT. The WP:LEDE still addresses novel material rather than summarizing the article's wider content. Also, is this wholly confined to the Dallas area? If not, then wider coverage of the topic is essential. Regardless, I think more work still needs to be done with the section listing deaths from the drug. Some of these (perhaps the first reported death, or one that spurred the larger investigation, if adequately sourced) might be useful to include, but there isn't normally cause to list all the overdose victims of a new drug; not that I'm even remotely holding Black tar heroin up as an good article or one to emulate, but note that it doesn't name any names from the 1990s Plano heroin overdose cluster (although it probably should at least mention the event...). Serpent's Choice 16:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Not to disagree with you, just to clarify a small point: The victims mentioned are nowhere near all the victims, only particularly notable ones (first published OD, first publicized OD, youngest published OD/sparked community rallies, an OD that gained attention because the corpse was abandoned on a porch. It may be that this could be addressed partly by reducing use of names, as they are in the articles and thus could be looked up easily ... As for confined to Dallas area, so far everything I've read both nationally and locally addresses Dallas County only, to date; now that the Dallas Morning News people are going back through records of the county medical examiner's office, there may be similar investigations in neighboring counties, but as yet there are none and Wikipedia is not a Magic 8-Ball. Again, that's not to say you're wrong on any of your major points; just addressing two minor ones. Lawikitejana 05:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I have failed this article as a WP:GA nominee. It was put on hold by the original reviewer, and the hold has long expired without all the issues having been addressed. Please feel free to renominate the article later on once you feel that it meets the Good Article criteria.--Konstable 03:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

PRICE

The bit about price should not be there. Prices fluctuate depending on where you are, availability etc. Affixing a price to it is, as such, incorrect.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.197.156 (talk • contribs) 18:21, 24 July 2007

The various news sources cite a price quite regularly, and Wikipedia sourcing is about what's verifiable. Lawikitejana 03:54, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Pricing

Edit summary by BurnDownBabylon — PKT said: "rm pricing information: it's a black market and we have no reason to believe the source is representative of the entire market"

So, what should I say? Should I say that X source stated that the price is Y? Should I say that X source stated that the average price is Y? What should be said in its place? WhisperToMe 05:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

YES. If you are going to include prices at all, you should state specifically what sources report that. Recreational, non-OTC drug prices vary so much! In California alone you can buy a gram of marijuana anywhere from $5 to $20. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.126.66 (talk) 21:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

We should indicate that it is sold on the black market and prices vary. Other than that, there is little that can be said. Until there is a credible academic source (not a local sensationalist rag) that conducts a comprehensive pricing study, such as is common with popular drugs, there are no reliable sources available to support a discussion of market pricing. —ptk✰fgs 06:32, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Which groups create price studies? Since Cheese has been reported in the media since 2005, I would think that one would have created a price study by now. WhisperToMe 13:52, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The economics of black market goods presents an extremely complex topic area, and it is critical that we rely on rigorous, peer-reviewed studies rather than local news blurbs. Criminology, policy, and economics journals are a great source for this kind of information. The sources you want to look at for rigorous study of the drug market generally have titles containing the word "Journal of..." and will be found using the journal indices at a college or university library.

Since this particular fad is so recent, however, it will certainly be some time before a rigorous academic study can be conducted, peer-reviewed, and published. For now we may simply have to be content to remain silent on the matter.

One reason the previous sources are not appropriate for meeting Wikipedia's verifiability policy is that a news reporter, by his nature, is not equipped to gather meaningful information on cheese pricing. "$X per hit" is not even a meaningful phrase when it comes from a reliable source; a glance at the DEA's lab analysis of LSD reveals that the content of a "hit" varies by several thousand percent from one dosage unit to the next.

Here's an example of the kind of source we should be looking for: http://www.bepress.com/bejeap/contributions/vol5/iss1/art3/ —ptk✰fgs 15:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Accuracy and reliable sources

This article is badly in need of an extensive check of its references. Scanning only the first few paragraphs of the article, I have found obviously inappropriate sources (such as the police powerpoint, complete with scary stock photos of a cemetary and an ominously silhouetted laboratory technician), as well as claims exaggerated or inaccurately paraphrased in the article. I intend to give it a thorough once-over, but that will take time. For the moment I am placing {{citecheck}} on the article to alert readers that the article likely contains distorted or misinterpreted information. —ptk✰fgs 15:17, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

PTK: By the police powerpoint, do you mean this: [3] ? Where is the stock photo of the cemetery? WhisperToMe 15:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to this. —ptk✰fgs 16:36, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh! I haven't seen this before! WhisperToMe 16:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

This Slate critique of a Newsweek article cites: http://slate.com/id/2166417/

"Why add diphenhydramine to heroin? Newsweek doesn't get around to the topic. Jane C. Maxwell, a University of Texas scholar who researches patterns of illicit drug use, writes in this fact sheet that the gummy consistency of black-tar heroin requires a cutting agent to make it a powder suitable for inhalation. Lactose, mannitol, baby laxative, coffee creamer, and other well-known diluents accomplish that. So do powdered diphenhydramine concoctions."

The fact sheet is: http://www.utexas.edu/research/cswr/gcattc/documents/cheeseheroin5-2-07.pdf

WhisperToMe 20:19, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a great brief -- good find. Looks like it will be a good source for bolstering some other cites in the article. —ptk✰fgs 21:23, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

The section titled "Production Methods" seems possibly dangerous if used as a recipe. It assumes the only water-soluble constituents of the starting ingredients are diphenhydramine and heroin. Even if followed correctly, and assuming the desired results, the product would be an unlabeled combination drug. Since tolerance for opiates would not likely imply tolerance for diphenhydramine, an experienced opiate user switching to a mixture containing the desired large amount of heroin would receive an overdose of diphenhydramine to which he had no similar tolerance. The above is an argument for 1) avoiding combination drugs, 2) clear and honest labelling of drugs, 3) Either legalizing drugs or avoiding illegal drugs as inherently dangerous, and 4) Limiting drugs, whether legal or illegal, to those prescribed by a trusted physician with the broad education, professional ethics, experience, independence from business bias, and personal knowledge of you and your private health condition. Whether treating physical pain or psychic boredom, the error in treating a chronic problem with simple repetition of a short-term solution is non-trivial and non-elementary, my dear Watson. Davidrei (talk) 21:39, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

Edits to try to clear up confusion

I just finished making several edits to the section on deaths. I cut down the early paragraphs, removing details such as the students' exact schools (that's getting less important and never meant that much to people outside the local area anyway) and details that were put in when the deaths were news and it was hard to sort out what would be important in the long run. I also tried to clear up some of the timeline, as it were, with additional details and shorter, more precise transitions. Come to think of it, an actual timeline at the end might help, possibly beginning with 2004 now that reports show it probably began that early — we can always note that the 2004 deaths weren't noted until later investigations — after all, part of the confusion comes from the fact that deaths occur in one month but aren't confirmed as cheese-heroin-linked until weeks later, after new deaths have happened. The updates on the death toll could be moved there if people think they fit better. The other changes I made were to (1) add new deaths (keeping with our current practice of not naming so as to avoid memorializing) (2) add today's report from the Tarrant County Medical Examiner's office showing that additional deaths in Tarrant and Denton counties also are linked, and (3) create headings dividing that section into meaningful chunks. For now, I've taken out the "confusing" tag, having read and re-read my edits, but anyone who feels it's still confusing can obviously replace the tag, or better yet, edit out the confusion! I'm not entirely satisfied with the subheadings I wrote, as they're not parallel, but I think it's a start. Lawikitejana 03:45, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

DEA Daft as Usual

By the description, the alleged drug would contain so much more acetaminophen (APAP/paracetamol to non-USA readers) that the deaths would be likely attributed liver failure due to acetaminophen overdose! Why was acetaminophen often not found, but diphenhydramine and heroin were? IT'S BENADRYL, YOU IDIOTS!!! Antihistamine/cheap sleeping pill, used by opiate abusers for two-in-one effect:

a) antihistamines alleviate a typical itch associated with opiates and opiods, especially the more contaminated and less potent kinds (like codeine) b) depressants potentiate opiates (making abuse cheaper but more dangerous)

Opiate+diphenhydramine use has been documented as wide-spread in many countries for decades. It's also verifiably much more deadly.

Why were most deaths without traces of acetaminophen, but most of those kids caught with it had tylenol pm with trace amounts of heroin? Because only a curious and dumb kid would ever be *able* to snort something with acetaminophen, especially that much of it (the mixture would be ~90% acetaminophen); 1) it's one of the foulest-tasting chemicals known to man, 2) with such low content of actual drugs, it would have to be snorted by the tablespoons.

Kids: don't do 'cheese'. The drug here discribed is more likely to put you up for a liver transplant than actually ever get you "high". Parents: find time for your kids. Liver transplants are more expensive, in the end. Plus, you probably love the buggers, right? DEA: get someone with a decent pharmacology/chemistry education already. People are laughing at you. Meanwhile, others are also dying. Considering your budget, something ain't right here!

128.195.186.78 10:53, 27 September 2007 (UTC)Adieu

Regarding the stuff about the DEA, this is Wikipedia:Original research - We want published resources from people with PHDs. The DEA already knows about the drug, as shown by the pages about the drug. WhisperToMe 14:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Would some registered user please add interwiki [[de:Cheese (Droge)]]. Thanks, --91.48.166.160 (talk) 19:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC) (MBq)

sources

It might seem sick to be slightly amused by this article, but like the person above who mentions Brasseye, I was surprised to find the cheese drug isn't a hoax. And there are better sources than the article has at the mo, I'll add some later. Sticky Parkin 11:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Comparison to black tar heroin purity

...is a little misleading: "contained between 2% and 8% heroin, in contrast to the 30% commonly found in black tar heroin." OK, but that 30% is counting only as the diacetylmorphine content. If one considers all acetyled morphine to be heroin: monoacetylmorphine as well, that is about another 50% (so about 80% heroin). Add the unreacted morphine content and it is quite a bit of active opioid content in black tar heroin compared to "cheese." 4.255.53.90 (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Having noticed this more than 15 years later, I don´t know whether the original poster will read this text. However, the comment is misleading. Heroin is the former trade name of diamorphine. 3- and 6-MAM are mostly metabolites of heroin, though the primary metabolite is morphine, since the acetyl groups are eliminated rapidly. You get heroin by acetylating the morphine, but for diamorphine (heroin) to be pure, the reaction must be carried out properly. If the acetylation is botched, you get more 3- and 6-MAM, so the heroin is less pure, but more toxic. Also, once the acetyl groups are removed after consuming heroin, no matter how pure, the remaining metabolites, 3- and 6-MAM, in the body are responsible for the other negative effects. 2A02:AB04:2B5:7200:D40E:6227:6561:642 (talk) 09:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Deletion?

Shouldn't this article be deleted? It's not really a new drug. It's mostly heroin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.236.252.231 (talk) 23:49, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

• The news media has extensively reported on "Cheese" as a phenomenon, and the reports have lasted for years and have spanned many publications. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:03, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Keeping the Lines

I was going to correct "head lines" to "headlines" in the sentence "The drug made many news head lines.." ...until I noticed the word play possibilities with "lines" in connection with an insufflation substance. I say, Well played, Whomever. rowley (talk) 19:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

DISD documents

• http://web.archive.org/web/20110519202009/http://www.dallasisd.org/pd/cheesePowerpoint.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6KxM4IB6Q
• http://web.archive.org/web/20100714014853/http://www.dallasisd.org/pd/PublicInfoBulletinCHEESE.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6KxM0TOL1
• http://web.archive.org/web/20110519202100/http://www.dallasisd.org/pd/PublicInfoBulletinCHEESE-Span.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/6KxLvbCYP

WhisperToMe (talk) 17:11, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Monkey Juice?

This article is moronic right down to dissolved heroin being referred to as monkey juice. It reminds me of reports about LSD making a man think he was a glass of orange juice and the story of jenkem. Law enforcement types with zero education about pharmacology, or any basic science understanding, create these moral panic stories to keep the equally misinformed public on-board with their failed policies. Wikipedia is better than this. This article should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.88.43.62 (talk) 21:34, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

It's not moronic at all. I used cheese heroin for over 10 years and knew many people who also used it and some that still do. Only thing they got wrong was you do not use diphenhydramine with acetaminophen because the acetaminophen clumps up too much and doesn't snort very well and doesn't seem to absorb ad well inside the nose. There were some people who did not like using the sleep aid to cut the Tae or they didn't have any at the time and would use what we called monkey water, not juice. But you would dissolve some tar in as little of water as possible and the use a syringe with no needle or a dropper to squirt the liquid up your nose. I have done it 100s of times and seen it done 100s of times 13mrowlate (talk) 16:44, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

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Spanish sources

http://web.archive.org/web/20081023114929/https://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/aldia/locales/stories/DN-cheesemothers_29dia.ART.State.Edition1.42142bf.html WhisperToMe (talk) 20:34, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

Cheese is %100 real, it's not low purity, and it's not used to get kids hooked

I used cheese heroin for over 10 years, and so did many of my friends. I am going to try and clear up any confusion on what it is exactly.

   The basic formula for cheese is definitely not black tar heroin with Tylenol pm. The whole purpose of cheese is a quick easy way to snort black tar heroin. Some people don't like needles, and smoking BTH is hard on the lungs, and you're getting like .04 of a gram per hit, so you have to take hits constantly. The acetaminophen in Tylenol pm causes it to clump up, and makes it almost like a paste that takes forever to dry out and then is difficult to crush fine enough to snort it. Plus acetaminophen is really bad for your liver. In my 10+ years using cheese I never encountered anyone who used anything with it in it. What is generally used is sleep aids with just diphenhydramine like simply sleep or sominex. It absorbs very well when snorted, and is easy to get a nice fine powder with it. Other people use mannitol, it's all referred to as cheese. It's basically just powder BTH.
   The talk about the very low purity levels is misleading. You start with the same quality of black tar heroin as anyone else gets. But you are adding the sleep aid as cut, which gives you a larger amount of drug that is now lower concentrated purity. For example it is common to shoot .2g - .3g of tar when used IV. It is also common to snort .2g worth of tar in a line of cheese, it just also has the added amount of cut in the line as well, making it weigh a lot more than .2g, but it's still all snorted in one line, but if when sampled is a lower purity per weight ratio, but you are snorting more weight. Sorry I'm having trouble finding the right words to explain it, but I hope that made sense. 
   Also cheese made of tar and sleep aid is the bottom of the barrel form of cheese. When possible people like to use prescription drugs as cut.  Alprazolam(xanax) is the most commonly used cut other than sleep aid, but back when pills were everywhere we'd use oxycodone, klonopin, dilaudid, and would even combine it with methamphetamine and cocaine as well. So the stuff was plenty strong, and would get you high, despite it's reputation as being really low purity. I'm sure there were/are plenty of people who would buy premixed cheese that could have been cut to hell, but I myself never bought powder, nor did anyone I know. You bought tar, and turned it into a powder to snort it. 12mrowlatemymetalworm12 (talk) 03:18, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

That's a lot of information on the topic, that I'm sure is true to an extent (that is to say, I believe you), but unfortunately, your first-hand experience is not a reliable source. If you can find reliable (per WP standards) sources supporting the information you described, please mention them here or add citations to the article. Otherwise we really can't do anything with this. WPscatter ^t/_c 03:21, 6 June 2023 (UTC)

Dinafem cheese

I would recommend stating that cheese as a drug can also reference to a cannabis strain called Dinafem cheese Darkdeath0123 (talk) 17:00, 5 October 2023 (UTC)