Talk:Chemins de fer du Nord

Merge proposal

I propose to merge Réseau Nord into this article. "Réseau Nord" doesn't exist, other than a collection of railway lines departing from the Gare du Nord. The content of Réseau Nord is currently a history of two of the oldest railway lines in France, opened by the Chemin de Fer du Nord. This info could be of value in this article, or in dedicated (new) articles about those lines (Paris-Lille and Paris-Hirson-Anor). Markussep ^Talk 10:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Merge completed. Markussep ^Talk 18:32, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

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Inaccurate name

I can see no good reason why this article about the Chemins de fer du Nord should not be so entitled. Calling it "French Northern Railway" (a "translation" which is, in any case, inaccurate in at least two respects!) is contrary to Wp practice in respect of every other French railway company. -- Picapica (talk) 21:24, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

There are no less than 5 references (US, British, old and recent) all backing up the use of the name "French Northern Railway", based on research I did a while back. If we can demonstrate that the vast majority of English sources use the French name, then of course, it can be reverted. Wikipedia is not seen as a reliable source. --Bermicourt (talk) 07:18, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

There are many more using the correct name. Here are a few:

Both the disque rouge and the carré were invented by Robert of the Chemins de fer du Nord in the 1860's.
This article discusses the electro-semaphores of Lartigue and Tesse, patented in 1872, and first used on the 44 km Saint-Denis to Creil line via Chantilly of the Chemins de Fer du Nord in October 1875. ¶ http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/railway/croco.htm

For tickets, etc., in Paris apply at the railway station of the Chemins de Fer du Nord. ¶ The South of France, East Half (etc.) : E B Black (ed.) : Edinburgh, 1885

Gare du Nord, Place de Roubaix, is the terminus of the Chemins de Fer du Nord, trains for England, via Calais or Boulogne, Belgium and Germany, via Liège. ¶ Pamphlet published by The Farmers' Loan and Trust Company : New York, 1914

He expected a rise in value of the shares which he held in the company of the Chemins de Fer du Nord... ¶ http://www.icongrouponline.com/Quotation/Quotation/0546693466.htm

He [James Rothschild] created the Chemins de Fer du Nord, and also took part in the development of the lines Paris-Orléans, Paris-Lyon-Méditerranée (PLM) and of the Chemins de Fer de l’Est. ¶ The Rothschilds in France in the 19th century : http://www.bnf.fr/documents/dp_rothschild_eng.pdf

He was vice president and secretary-general of the Chemins de Fer du Nord and from 1933 to 1940 was administrator of Air France... ¶ http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0013_0_13454.html

In 1847 architect and engineer Léonce Reynaud built a railway station for the Chemins de Fer du Nord, a railway company that served the connections to the cities north of Paris. ¶ http://www.aviewoncities.com/paris/garedunord.htm

In 1875, Bruant entered the offices of the Chemins de Fer du Nord as a clerk. ¶ "The Eccentric Masculinity of Aristide Bruant" : Michael L. Wilson : Proceedings of the Western Society for French History : University of Texas at Dallas : Dallas 2008

It is a French device and originated on the Chemins de Fer du Nord around 1872... ¶ http://ppsinternational.in/download-area/hasler-rail/CAT_Product_Catalogue.pdf

It was re-built between 1861 and 1866 by Bridge & Roadway Engineers on behalf of the Chemins de Fer du Nord Company... ¶ http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2012/11/13/25568340.html

"Northern Steam / Vapeurs du Nord : Photographs of French Steam Locomotives on the Chemins de Fer du Nord, 1906-1937, and later on the Northern Region of the S.N.C.F., Societe Nationale Chemins de Fer, 1938-1952" ¶ Collyns, Adrian H. et al. : DeGolyer Library, Southern Methodist University : Dallas 2003

On 14 June 1846 to celebrate the inauguration of the Chemins de Fer du Nord, James de Rothschild took 1,700 male guests from Paris to lunch in Lille and dinner in Brussels. ¶ Europe 1700-1914 : http://europetransformed.blogspot.co.uk/2007/08/process-of-industrialization.html

Soon thereafter, it was placed on alertt during the government's dispute with the workers of the Chemins du fer du Nord, and asked to protect the work projects underway in the Champs de Mars. ¶ "Armies of the Poor: Determinants of Working Class Participation in the Parisian Insurrection of June 1848" : Mark Traugott : Princeton University Press: Princeton 1985

The accounts of the Chemins de Fer du Nord supplied in the annex provide an illustration. ¶ "A discussion of stock market speculation by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon" : 12th World Congress of Accounting Historians: Nice 2008

The approach was there to form a back-shunt junction, joining the Calais-Boulogne section of the Chemins de Fer du Nord at Beuvrequen. ¶ http://www.engrailhistory.info/r138.html

The Chemins de Fer du Nord and Paris Orléans (PO) companies considered it an honour to provide Napoleon III and his family with the latest design of lounge carriages, decorated by the greatest designers of the time. ¶ The Platforms of History : http://www.citedutrain.com/en/collections/lounge-carriage-no-10-grande-duchesse

The Chemins du Fer du Nord specified the use of a system with the line divided into a number of sections. ¶ The L M Ericsson Review, 1933 No 2 : Stockholm

The companies involved were the Chemins de Fer du Nord of France, the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits and two antecedents of the Southern Railway - the London, Chatham & Dover and the South Eastern. ¶ http://www.southernposters.co.uk/Continental/clubtrain.html

The result, as could be seen from Lahy's tram study in 1908 through his work for the Chemins de fer du Nord, was a procedure that started with an examination of the specific job for which the industry wished to select candidates... ¶ "Henri Laugier, the Science of Work and the Workings of Science in France, 1920-1940" : William H. Schneider : Reprint from Cahiers pour l’histoire du CNRS 5-1989

This is the timetable for the Orient Express for Winter 1888-1889 from the South Eastern and London-Chatham-Dover Railways, and the Chemins de Fer du Nord and de L'Est of France. ¶ The Orient Express : http://anuradha-eu.blogspot.co.uk/2010_03_21_archive.html

-- Picapica (talk) 12:14, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

Well of course I chose not to cite every reference that uses the English name! I just selected five that showed the spread. And I also restricted myself to book sources only; there are thousands of websites that appear to use the English name, but one needs to analyse them carefully to weed out unreliable ones.

Clearly both forms are used; the questions are, on balance, which is the most common format in authoritative sources and how much weight does WP:USEENGLISH carry? Bermicourt (talk) 13:23, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

And I did no more than cite the first 20 examples I happened to come across. Altogether, Google finds around 520,000 instances of [ "Chemins de fer du Nord" -wikipedia ] and about 38,000 of [ "French Northern Railway" -wikipedia ].

WP:USEENGLISH is a frequently abused / inappropriately over-applied guideline in my view (often by Americans, for some reason! -- multicultural unease?). Had the Compagnie des chemins de fer du Nord ever referred to itself as the "French Northern Railway" that would have carried some weight in this regard, but I can find no evidence that it ever did so -- and, in any case, to employ the mistranslation "French Northern Railway" as the name of this article is to fly in the face of Wikipedia's usage in respect of all other French railway companies! -- Picapica (talk) 18:35, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

• The question is not what the company called itself, but what authoritative English-language sources call it, whether we think they've mistranslated it or not. To wit: Bayern Munich - a mix of English and German! Wikipedia is a tertiary source and so not considered a WP:WPNOTRS. Looking at your links:

The following are WP:SELFSOURCE or WP:USERGENERATED blogs: Le Crocodile, BlogSpot, The Orient Express

The following is based on an unfinished sentence in a book extract: Chemins

The following is a tertiary sources and hence WP:WPNOTRS: Jewish Virtual Library

Some of the others are of doubtful scholarship as they are not sources that obvious specialize in railways.

I have carried out more research using Googlebooks, which is a better indicator of reliable sources.

Searching on "Chemin de fers du Nord", I found 4 English sources that use the French name:

International Law Reports, albeit they probably have to use the French name for legal reasons.

Armies of the Poor

Pioneers for Profit

After the Ruins

A similar search on "French Northern Railway" gives 14 sources:

Monthly Bulletin, Vol 4, International Railway Congress Association

Proceedings, Weissenbruch

The Railway Age

International Banking 1870-1914

The Great Train Race

The Holsten Papers

Bulletin of the International Railway Congress, Volume 19, Pt 2

The Life and Times of a Duke

The Railway Magazine, Volume 17

The World of Private Banking

Bulletin of the International Railway Congress Association, Volume 26

Papers Ed Rch/Fsher, Volume 1

Question 1-20, Issues 34-66

The Illustrated Directory of Trains of the World

That is over 3 to 1 in favour of the English name.

I see that you are trying to be helpful by tidying up the names of French railways on Wikipedia. As most of them are in French, I can see why you would be frustrated by this one being different. But we must look at English usage and it may be that there is a common English name for one or two railways, but native names for the rest. Hope this helps. Bermicourt (talk) 19:58, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

PS I am not American! (Not that there's anything wrong with being one - I'm just not!) Bermicourt (talk) 21:03, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

To further wit, the article on the German football club you mention supra begins

« FC Bayern Munich
Fußball-Club Bayern München e.V., commonly known as FC Bayern München, FC Bayern Munich, or FC Bayern... »

I cannot see why it is not equally reasonable to begin the article under present review with, say,

« French Northern Railway
The Compagnie des chemins de fer du Nord, commonly known as le Nord, the Nord company, or the French Northern Railway [your sources shown]... »

That is not so very different from the revision that you undid on 26.09.13. You will also note that my revision did not alter the namespace itself (instead I started this discussion) – unlike your own renaming of the article on 28.07.13, an operation which you executed without any discussion at all.

PS I never said you were American! - Picapica (talk) 08:33, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't have a problem with that wording along those lines. I've also seen a number of sources referring to it simply as the "Northern Railway" where it's clear that the context is France (there are of course other Northern Railways). I've even seen it called the "Great French Northern Railway". But I haven't done any stats on those variants.

PS Sorry, I clearly inferred too much from your comment. I'm really not at all sensitive about being called an American - honest, guv :). Bermicourt (talk) 12:42, 28 September 2013 (UTC)