Talk:Cherokee calendar

Rename to Cherokee ceremonial cycle

Cherokee calendar can't be sourced. Bruhac doesn't talk about one and only mentions the Cherokee in relationship to one moon.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=D5z3-OHbcVoC&pg=PA54&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1062645?uid=3738032&uid=2&uid=4&sid=21101740791487

http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=OEbTf663pDcC&oi=fnd&pg=PP7&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&ots=_BiBTGshtL&sig=2wIxUghf2L0Q5DVRhodlrD_UD5U#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false

http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/southern_cultures/v018/18.4.snyder.html

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3JH-TPFjLk4C&pg=PA349&dq=cherokee+ceremonial+cycle&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PvgLUdr9KafB0gXPoYCwCQ&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=cherokee%20ceremonial%20cycle&f=false . Dougweller (talk) 19:13, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

The only true source I see that may be considered reliable by Wikipedia is James Mooney's book (referenced) on page 244. Most of what we know has been passed down verbally. No official Cherokee site will list them. If the first-hand knowledge of an indigenous person were enough then I am sure there would have been no call for sourcing. Beyond telling you this is what it is and adding the Cherokee Syllabary for each month there isn't much more that can be done.Tsistunagiska (talk) 19:25, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Restructure & Rewrite

I am currently restructuring/rewriting Cherokee Society but have targeted this article as my next to look at rewriting/restructuring with reliable sources. I am very glad it was decided to keep it and look forward to the challenge of adding context. Tsistunagiska (talk) 18:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Calendrical vs astronomical moon cycle (formerly "Extremely suspicious of this article's claims")

I am not Cherokee, and I confess that I know little of their culture; however, from what I know of astronomy I am highly suspicious of both the claims of this article and the sources thereof. A synodic lunar month is not 28 days long, but 29.53, and sidereal 27.3, meaning this alleged lunar calendar would be nearly three weeks or one week out of sync with these respective lunar cycles after one tropical year. Every other lunar calendar in existence I know of has alternating days of 29 and 30 days for a lunar year of 354 days and 12 synodic months; with lunisolar calendars only inserting a thirteenth month once every several years as needed to keep the months from drifting with the seasons. Given that Robert Graves' "Celtic Tree Calendar", as popular among New Age circles as pseudo-indigenous North American claptrap, has exactly the same structure and has the same false claim of being a lunar calendar, this makes me wonder how much is genuine, albeit mangled, Cherokee lore and how much of it is New Age invention which somehow managed to trick actual Cherokee people. Again, I wish to iterate that I am not from this culture, but it is my genuine intention to ensure actual indigenous culture is not being confused with New Age woo here. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 13:42, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Midnight-Blue766, I appreciate your interest. I am of Cherokee descent and I can assure you that they actually centered their celebrations and dances around the lunar phases as suggested here in the article. Agriculture was the single most important aspect of Cherokee life. You needed food to sustain the growth and vibrancy of the culture. This isn't just a new age fad and its main sources are the Cherokee themselves from James Mooney's studies. Everything is sourced with historical data and not new age literature. The turtle-back calendar was used by multiple Indigenous American Indian tribes, including the Cherokee. One such calendar is located at the Smithsonian. Before I edited the article it had some information that was incorrect and it was replaced by factual and sourced information. I am not here to trick anyone but accurately portray tribal beliefs and customs in a way that honors my ancestors and educates the reader. As the Cherokee became "more civilized" in the eyes of Euro-Americans they adopted the calendar and time keeping of their Euro-American counterparts and focus became less and less on the ceremonies and dances but some still held to the traditional beliefs and simply adjusted the old ways to fit with the new way. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:21, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

To add, they may have had a system to make up for the differences or maybe they thought the days not as important as the phases. None of us were alive then to know for sure and it was not thought important enough for those studying the culture to record it. At any rate, I was very careful to verify sources and made sure the information those sources stated could be verified using other reliable sources. Any information that could not be sourced was removed including a lot of the information still in the article as it related to any Mayan or New Age influences. Only historically accepted and tribal endorsed information remained. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your response. Rest assured, I am assuming good faith here and am genuinely curious as to the relationship between the calendar as presented in this article and lunar cycles, and my goal is too improving this article so that it shows respects to and educates readers about traditional Cherokee culture. I was never assuming you were out to intentionally mislead people, but I was concerned about the extent New Age woo and misunderstandings may have contaminated the understanding of this calendar even by indigenous people. I apologise if I was speaking too harshly or if it looked like I was trying to talk above actual indigenous voices, which was the last thing I was trying to do.

My biggest concern here is that an astronomical lunar month is not 28 days no matter how one defines it, but either 29.53 (synodic, i.e. the time it takes for the Moon to return to the same phase) or 27 .3 days (sidereal, i.e. the time it take for the Moon to return to the same position amongst the stars), and in my humble opinion, the article should do more to emphasise this. For example, instead of:

The Cherokee calendar is based upon a lunar year and defined by 13 cycles of moon phases. Each cycle was accompanied by a ceremony. In order to rectify the Cherokee calendar with that of the Julian calendar, these cycles were reduced to 12. The seasonal round of ceremonies was integral to Cherokee society. It was considered an important spiritual element for social cohesion and a way to bring all the Cherokee clans together.

The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used a turtle’s back pattern of scales to determine their calendar cycle. The scales around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scales, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year.

it might be revise to read:

The Cherokee calendar was based upon a lunar year and is defined by 13 months which formerly directly corresponded to moon phases; however, the calendar is currently solar in structure. Each cycle was accompanied by a ceremony. In order to rectify the Cherokee calendar with that of the Julian calendar, these cycles were reduced to 12. The seasonal round of ceremonies was integral to Cherokee society. It was considered an important spiritual element for social cohesion and a way to bring all the Cherokee clans together.

The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used a turtle’s back pattern of scales to determine their calendar cycle. The scales around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as a month, while the center contained 13 larger scales, representing the 13 months of a year. The length of a synodic lunar month is 29.5 days. Although this calendar was originally a lunar calendar, it was subsequently modified by shortening month lengths and permanently inserting a 13th month to better fit with the solar year. (changes bolded by me)

Again, these are all my unsourced speculations, hence why I'm talking about it here instead of going ahead and making changes to the article directly. However, if you give your blessings here I could add it to the article. Rest assured, my goal too is to understand indigenous cultures and their relationships to natural cycles better as well. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 14:50, 18 November 2020 (UTC):

Oh no, please don't misunderstand me either, I welcome discussion on these topics. I'm actually excited you said something here rather than just make changes. I believe that is the proper approach to any alterations to existing articles, even non-sourced. I always comment on the talk page beforehand and try to open discussions. We definitely can address any wording included in the article. When the Cherokee flipped from their "calendar" based on moon phases to the Julian calendar, and subsequent Gregorian calendar, based on a solar year I am sure it took some time to adjust but I believe they probably stuck to their ceremonial schedule in the beginning and slowly adjusted it over time until most Cherokee didn't even follow a ceremonial calendar any more. There are still Cherokee today who carry on ceremonial traditions. I incorporate them in my life as well. I also honor some traditional/ceremonial beliefs of the Crow of Montana and Tlingit of Alaska as I have had extensive exposure to their cultures in my life. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:07, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

In response to your bolded statements: The Cherokee calendar didn't alter as much as was replaced by the Julian/Gregorian calendars. Cherokee ceremonial practices were altered but largely stayed with lunar phases. There were basically seven main ceremonies/dances and six minor ceremonies/dances as well as a host of other smaller ceremonies and dances in-between. Sometimes they would go on for weeks at a time. The seventh main ceremony only took place every seven years, called the Uka Dance. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:39, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

The modification and alterations mostly affected the daily life of the Cherokee and probably assisted with the degradation of the practice of traditional beliefs but that was pretty much the custom of that time. "Assimilate or die, and then after you assimilate we are still going to kick you off your land, but that's okay because we will just say it was never really yours and that you just took it from another tribe." So saying the Cherokee calendar was altered is a play on words. Technically, the calendar the Cherokee used after the moment of the cultural shift to adopt a more Euro-American lifestyle was no longer the "Cherokee calendar" but the actual Julian/Gregorian Calendar that was translated into the spoken Cherokee language and then the written after Sequoya developed the Syllabary. What they did alter was the time frame of their ceremonies, slightly. The Green Corn Festival was one that shifted, nearly a month. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 15:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I'm not saying it changed as a result of colonial interference; rather the disprecancy between the traditional month length and the synodic month means that at some point in time, either colonial or pre-colonial, the calendar was modified to as to fit in with the solar year. Would this be okay to add? Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 01:11, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I also remembered that in English common law, a "lunar month" is exactly 28 days. So there is precedent for a culture using a "lunar month" of 28 days. But again, the differences between the calendrical lunar month of 28 days and a synodic lunar month should be made clear. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 01:14, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

The article is written from the historical perspective of the Cherokee of that time or, at least, our understanding of what they believed. My only concern is further confusing readers on what the Cherokee believed or practiced from this historical time. I think the article can be written in such a way as to say that from this point in time back there was a lunar calendar the Cherokee used, and as far as we know it was a 28 day per month calendar system like many of their neighboring tribes, but from that point forward they adopted a solar calendar that was basically the Julian/Gregorian calendar to bring their time keeping in line with the Euro-American influences they were experiencing. They traded with the colonial powers and subsequent Americans so there were influences beyond just the coercive type they experienced. To try and rectify or clarify the differences between a calendrical lunar month and a synodic lunar month may be getting too far into the "proverbial" weeds, so to speak. I don't know if it mattered to them and it is their story we are trying to tell. I think of it like an exhibit at the Smithsonian. I agree with you completely that our understanding and even our technological advances have made it where we can see these differences more clearly but by adding that element of modern thinking to the article, does it take away from explaining what they would be thinking or doing at that time? That is the approach I constantly battle within myself a lot. I usually end up asking myself if what I do here or add here is really teaching it from their perspective or is it trying to rectify it to what we know today. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with the notion that knowledge of the synodic month is necessarily "modern", as many traditional lunar calendars used by other cultures, such as the Chinese calendar, the Jewish calendar and the historical Hindu Vikram Samvat all use it as the basis for their months. However, it was not used by the Cherokee, that I understand. I've gone ahead and added some brief references to the article anyway so we can have a starting point. I recommend using the below section for further discussion. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:24, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Section "Comparison with other calendars" added

In regards to your concerns above, and I confess that I am not a Native person and I cannot speak for them or you, but I think that if nothing else, a discussion on the relationship to the traditional and astronomical lunar month is in the spirit of Wikipedia's mission, and that the similarities and differences noted above are noteworthy enough to have its own section in that respect. In my own personal opinion, I think a discussion on the differences between the Cherokee calendar and the synodic month may even enhance our understanding of the traditional lore, knowledge and worldview of the Cherokee people, as our lively discussion above demonstrates. Hence, I've gone ahead and made some changes to the article now so we don't spend forever talking about it here, and so we can have a starting point to move forward with. It's not too long or speculative, just a single section on the similarities and differences the traditional Cherokee calendar has with other lunar calendars. If I was too rash in my work, I apologise. Feel free to make alterations as needed; and I would especially like it if it was complemented by further discussion here. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

EDIT: Also some minor rewording of the intro and a footnote introducing the differences of the traditional and astronomical lunar month. If it's too redundant feel free to remove it, but I wanted some way to talk about this aspect in the introduction, and I felt a footnote was the best way to do so without too much intrusion. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:14, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Finally, I'd like to say that while the synodic month wasn't used by Cherokee people traditionally, and its knowledge among Cherokee people was likely introduced from the West as a result of colonialism, it doesn't necessarily make concept the synodic month modern or Western. I am ethnically Korean, and East Asian people (Koreans, Chinese and Japanese) have used a lunar calendar based off the synodic month for thousands of years. I am not saying that the Cherokee approach is right or wrong, or that it's better or worse than other calendars out there (and I am sorry if I did previously or made comments that can be interpreted as the same), but I want to help people better understand it by introducing a discussion on its relationship to the synodic month. Once again, I want to reiterate that it is my personal hope that my additions can spark discussions which can enhance our understanding of traditional Cherokee culture and its narratives and worldviews, not "correct" it in any way. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 04:52, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

The point I was trying to make is not who created or originated or used a particular type of calendar. I apologize if I have offended you or your ancestry. My point is that the calendar used by the Cherokee was none of those and I don't see the effort being made to compare a Hindu, Jewish or Asian calendar to the Cherokee calendar on their articles so why try to compare the Cherokee calendar to them on this article when it has nothing to do with any of those other calendars. The proverbial, "If it isn't broke don't fix it" comes to mind. I disagree with trying to compare but you have already added the comments and they are sourced so it can't be disputed as verifiable information because it is technically true. However, I do want it noted that I disagree with this as an editor and a member of Cherokee ancestry. I don't believe it aids in understanding the calendar any more than the information that was originally provided did. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:44, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

To add, for me it would be like going to an article on Japanese or Korean society and adding even a few sentences in comparison of Cherokee society. It is wholly not needed. They stand on their own and rightly so. Comparison studies can be made independently without including them within the articles, if an editor, historian or the general reader wishes, simply by searching for it. --Tsistunagiska (talk) 14:55, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

Section "Comparison with other calendars" removed

• Tsistunagiska has a point (see above); I think I'll just expand the footnote slightly if I want to explain the differences between in more detail. The section is reproduced below for austerity. Midnight-Blue766 (talk) 21:37, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Comparison with other calendars

The traditional Cherokee moon cycle of 28 days differs from the astronomical synodic month (the time it takes for the moon to return to the same phase) of approximately 29.5 days. In this respect, it differs from many other traditional lunar calendars, which use synodic months. However, the traditional Cherokee definition of a lunar month as consisting of exactly 28 days is identical to that formerly used in English common law.

References

Questionable sources

Can I ask why the primary sources consist of a fake tribe http://theucn.com/ceremonies.html and a commercial site https://www.aaanativearts.com ? Also, for the majority of translations, there is only one dialect. I find this a bit disconcerting. Indigenous girl (talk) 20:37, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Let's take care of that and get rid of the questionable sources. They should have never been used in the first place. Also, what if we took the bullet lists and turned them into spreadsheet charts instead? We could list both dialects in their separated cells so everyone can compare the two more easily. --ARoseWolf 12:37, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Indigenous girl, what do you think about removing the section on the Cherokee Moons Ceremonies? The only online sources I can find that list them are blogs, personal websites, fake tribes and commercial sites. Almost every encyclopedic site mentions the ceremonies but doesn't list them. I don't remember Mooney listing them in his journals either. --ARoseWolf 13:17, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Turtles don't have 28 scutes!

I have not yet found an image or species of North American turtle with 28 scutes around the edge of their shell. Many North American species of turtles do have 13 scutes on the backs of their shells (lateral and central scutes), but most have 24 marginal scutes plus 1 cervical scute. The turtle shell in the image in this article does not have 28 scutes around its shell. I have counted scutes on numerous images of turtle shells and examined many physical specimen-- I can't make it add up to 28 no matter how I look at it. I don't know what "certain species of turtle[s]" mentioned in the article have 28 scutes.

I am not qualified to debate whether the claim (that some Native American traditions use the turtle shell as a model or parable to describe a 13 month year with 28 days) is true, but the article should not state the following (bolded) as fact:

"The Cherokee, like many other Native tribes, used the number of scutes on the backs of certain species of turtles to determine their calendar cycle. The scutes around the edge added up to 28, the same number of days as in a lunar cycle, while the center contained 13 larger scutes, representing the 13 moon cycles of a year."

Is there any other documentation that substantiates this claim and its traditional use/origin? I'm skeptical-- though, again, that may not be precisely what needs correcting. Maybe a better question would be: are there any photographs of North American turtle species with the 28 marginal/cervical scutes to substantiate the statements about turtle anatomy that this article claims?

At very least, the 13/28 scutes statement should be quoted from the cited sources, not stated as fact in the article. 2603:6080:6506:F400:25C5:6C9A:502:5CC5 (talk) 02:50, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Gúyû

The Mooney source mentions Gúyû as a fifth season between Gagi and Ulăgăhûstû. ARoseWolf, I assume you removed it based on usage in modern Cherokee, but would it still make sense to mention it as a historical note? Mooney describes the five season system as being retained at the time of writing, which seems noteworthy to include, though I don't know enough to be sure. Geobica (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Geobica, I am not opposed to the content being re-added as long as reliable sources, such as Mooney, describe it as so. It was removed more because I couldn't find a second reliable source for the content other than Mooney. I felt we needed that for verification. --ARoseWolf 20:38, 7 March 2024 (UTC)