Talk:Cherry Valentine/Archive 1

Archive 1

Referring to subject as "Valentine"

I've removed appearances of "Valentine", which is not a true last name. I suggest we avoid using "Valentine" as a last name unless someone can prove sources do so. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:37, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Memorial concert

• https://www.attitude.co.uk/news/uk/cherry-valentine-memorial-concert-to-honour-the-late-drag-queen-416472/

---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:22, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 Added ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:58, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

FA?

This article has been reviewed extensively. I think major issues would have been raised by now.

Thoughts on meeting FA criteria? Anyone interested in co-nominating?

---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:04, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

@Another Believer, I can co-nominate! — JuanGLP (talk + contribs) 14:17, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

@JuanGLP  Done Looking forward to collaborating and getting editor feedback. Please be sure to add Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Cherry Valentine/archive1 to your watchlist and help respond to any concerns editors may have. Thanks so much! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:35, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Result of Death.

The Sun have announced the result of death for Cherry Valentine.

Source: https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/21330491/rupauls-drag-race-cherry-valentine-found-hanged-struggle/

— JuanGLP (talk) 15:30, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

@JuanGLP The Sun is not considered a reliable source, per Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, but feel free to share other sources if you come across. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

here are some more sources:

• https://www.the-sun.com/entertainment/7348994/rupauls-drag-race-cherry-valentine-found-hanged-struggle/
• https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/cherry-valentine-suicide-drag-race-26200712
• https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/bbc-rupauls-drag-race-uk-star-cherry-valentine-found-dead-by-flatmate-after-struggling-with-fame/ar-AA17imTt

i don't know if these are reliable sources, but i found them. — JuanGLP (talk) 17:52, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Pronouns

We use a selection of different pronouns in the article:

• She/her/herself (x5)
• He (x5)
• They (x1)

I presume "she/her/herself" is used in context of Valentine and "he" in context of Ward. Should we be using "they" as well? What is most appropriate/compliant with MOS:GENDERID? MIDI (talk) 08:43, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing at MOS:GENDERID or MOS:IDENTITY that supports random gender pronouns. There is also no rule that allows for changing pronouns for personas: the cited portions of the Manual of Style explicitly say, "Use gendered words only if they reflect the person's latest self-identification as reported in recent sources" which in this case, is masculine (correct me if I'm wrong). We should not flip-flop for a stage persona, as that directly contradicts this. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf: You're close. See Chi Chi DeVayne and India Ferrah for quality examples of articles which use different pronouns when referring to a subject in and out of drag. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Another Believer: How do those articles conform to the Manual of Style? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:03, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf: Great question. I'm not entirely sure, to be honest, but Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Gender identity might be helpful. Perhaps another editor can offer a more specific answer, but I wanted to share how I've seen pronouns used in similar (GA) articles. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I linked to that exact page, @Another Believer: and quoted it. The examples you give break the rules as described in that essay. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:09, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@Koavf: Well, you linked to a subsection of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography. The link I've provided is longer and more specific and may or may not have a satisfactory answer for you. To me, what you've quoted is re: gender self-identification. So, in the case of trans queen Gigi Goode, we use 'she/her' throughout. However, in this case, Ward did not identify as female. His drag persona was female. There's a difference. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

It seems like you're not reading my posts: I linked to both MOS:GENDERID and MOS:IDENTITY and I quoted the page that you linked. If someone is/feels/identifies as male and pretends to be female, it is not consistent with the MOS to use female pronouns in his biography. That is exactly what the page says to do. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:15, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

So you're saying the article should only use Ward and 'he/his' throughout? It would be confusing to discuss Cherry Valentine and use 'he/him'. And we should ignore how Ward uses 'she/her' pronouns when referencing Cherry Valentine? --Another Believer _(Talk) 18:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Correct: "Use gendered words only if they reflect the person's latest self-identification as reported in recent sources". Did Ward identify as a woman? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:23, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Ward identified as male and Cherry Valentine was female. I'm not understanding why both can't be true. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:25, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Because one is a person and the other is a fictional persona used for the stage. The article says to use the person's self-identification and he is a man. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:00, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

We're talking in circles, so I'll let others weigh in. All I'm trying to do here is show how other articles have addressed this issue. Meanwhile, I'm going to continue defending 'he/him' for text about Ward and 'she/her' for text about Cherry Valentine, for the sake of consistency with Good articles about drag queens. If you think this is problematic, you might try a MoS venue? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Consistency would be using "he/him". This has been discussed before several times and there is no change to the MoS. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:30, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I amended my above comment to clarify "for the sake of consistency with Good articles about drag queens". Can you share links to any discussions specifically about drag personas? I'm curious if this 'in and out of drag' issue has been discussed before. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 19:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Lots of stuff here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=500&offset=0&prefix=Wikipedia+talk%3AManual+of+Style&profile=default&search=drag+queen+pronouns&title=Special:Search&ns0=1 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?fulltext=Search+archives&fulltext=Search&prefix=Wikipedia+talk%3AWikiProject+LGBT+studies%2F&search=drag+queen+pronouns&ns0=1 ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@MIDI The article clearly states Cherry used they/them pronouns. But He is used exclusively in the article. 2604:CA00:11A:2D88:0:0:A60:D4E9 (talk) 18:45, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

His family has issued a statement regarding his death using masculine pronouns. I think we should take this as definitive. Article amended accordingly.

Marchino61 (talk) 09:58, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Marchino61 and Koavf. MIDI (talk) 10:16, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

We should be using 'he/him/his' re: Ward and 'she/her' re: Cherry Valentine. This is consistent with quality biographies about drag queens. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:29, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed.Naraht (talk) 17:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. --Kbabej (talk) 22:11, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

@MIDI You might remove the "resolved" tag. The issue is still being discussed here. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 18:22, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, have done. MIDI (talk) 18:59, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Recent changes

@Another Believer My bad, I didn't realize I was editing multiple times, I was just unable to edit it alltogether one time, I didn't see that. However, George, out of drag, goes by either he/they or they/them pronouns, I'm trying to find evidence of only they/them, but I am mostly finding evidence of he/they. Therefore, the article should at least have some they/them pronouns. That's what it means for someone to go by he/they, she/they, etc. That you use both together as you speak of them. Hope this helps, from someone who goes by she/they pronouns myself. Wordofmouf (talk) 20:01, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@Wordofmouf The personal life section says, "Ward was genderfluid, and used he/they pronouns when not in drag." What more do you want? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:28, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

.... To use he/they pronouns?? Not just he?? You said it yourself, they used he/they pronouns. Wordofmouf (talk) 01:53, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you need to do some more research on queer identities before you write about them. Wordofmouf (talk) 01:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

I have some experience in this area. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 02:24, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

You can insert links to all the articles you desire to, this article shows me all I need to know. Listen to queer people when they tell you something. Wordofmouf (talk) 17:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Oh, stop, you're addressing a gay guy who's surrounded by queer people all the time. You can continue this discussion without me, thanks. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:59, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

Romany background

It says that He was the only drag queen on ru paul with Romany background but the Vivienne has also spoken about being Romany — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.40.222 (talk) 12:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

I've tried to update the article appropriately. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 01:03, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

Dash problem in lede

I'm hesitant to "improve" a featured article, but for the year range in the lede sentence, I believe the punctuation around the dash is wrong: MOS:ENFROM says "The en dash in a range is always unspaced". ☆ Bri (talk) 23:21, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

@Bri "The en dash in a range is always unspaced, except when either or both elements of the range include at least one space, hyphen, or en dash." ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:45, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

You are right! Okay then. ☆ Bri (talk) 05:39, 3 June 2023 (UTC)