Talk:Cheryl Campbell/archive 1

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Someone removed the statement that Cheryl Campbell has never done a nude scene. If it is disputed, please provide the evidence. --Aussieintn 15:14, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I didn't remove that bit, so I can only speculate, because I thought about removing it as well: a) Negative claims ("has never done") are always hard to prove. b) It seems fairly irrelevant. I guess she's never been to Nigeria, either, but I won't mention that in the article. Rl 15:55, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• Has Cheryl Campbell never been to Nigeria? That's interesting. As for your statement that you didn't remove that bit, isn't that also a negative claim? --Aussieintn 17:08, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
• I found that Cheryl Campbell got naked playing Lady Aline Hartlip in The Shooting Party (1985). Perhaps the Nigeria bit should go in, but this non-nude claim is now disputable. --Aussieintn 17:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

VfD

survived Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Cheryl Campbell Not only did Cheryl Campbell appear nude in The Shooting Party, but partially nude in Dennis Potter's 'Rain on the Roof', and a fully nude rear view in his 'Pennies from Heaven'. However, her nude scenes have always been discreet which is greatly toher credit.

This article is little more than a random list of roles she played. Surely we can do better than this. PatGallacher (talk) 21:04, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

IMDbPro

Perhaps you ought to read WP:SOAP.
Instead of pushing some weird personal agenda, why don't you go to IMDbPro, contact her agent, and ask her if she wants you to call her an actress, or a bloody "actor"? Eh?
My old girlfriend who is English, who is the same age as Campbell, insists on being called "Miss" because she was brought up properly.
You're saying that Campbell is some sort of slattern? Not bloody likely.
Varlaam (talk) 16:41, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps instead of using filthy language and snarkiness you should read Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Gender-neutral language and the article actor. What your girlfriend prefers to be called is irrelevant to this page. Since "Miss" is not a profession it also has no bearing on the situation. Men and women in the acting profession, as well as those outside of it, are moving away from the sexist language of past eras. Please refrain for [[WP:NPA|personal attacks when editing on wikipedia. MarnetteD | Talk 18:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Actor or Actor-ess (Actress)

Label, shmabel -- The word "actor" is not a label; it is a noun; and like all nouns and pronouns in English, it has gender.

Modern English has four grammatical genders - masculine, feminine, neuter, and common - and, like Latin, uses a system of natural gender. Thus, things which are actually male or male-identified are masculine; female or female-identified, feminine; neither male nor female, neuter; and either male or female, common. E.g. In order: stallion, colt; mare, filly; equus (scientific term); and horse, foal.

Actor is a classical noun; that is, it was borrowed into English from a Classical language -- specifically, from Latin. In English as in Latin, "actor" is a masculine word. It's feminine cognate is "actress" = viz. Actor + feminine suffix -ess = actoress, but the 'o' gets contracted out to "actress." Likewise "master/mister" (both contractions of Latin "magister") and "misteress" > "mistress" which gets contracted/abbreviated to "Miss," "Mrs" "Ms" plus the variations "Missus" and "Misses" (contraction of "Mistresses").

Other cognates in the same class include "murderer/murderess," "author/authoress," "manager/manageress," and so on. The first two are archaic but "manageress" can still be heard at least in parts of England. In Are You Being Served?, for example, Doremy Vernon played Mrs Yardwick, the canteen manageress.

In English as in most other languages, it is acceptable for the masculine to include the feminine. Thus, it is perfectly acceptable refer to women using the masculine words "actor," "manager," "author," "murderer," etc.

But to claim that "actor" is not a masculine word is absolutely ridiculous. It always has been a masculine word; it always will be a masculine word.

This illustrates one of the vital differences between Anglophone feminism and Francophone feminism. Whereas Anglophones tend to be held-bent on eliminating the feminine forms of words to promote the masculine element; Francophone feminism is equally assertive about creating distinctly feminine forms -- like "la professeure," "la presidente," "la directrice," etc., instead of being forced by the Academie Francaise to use the masculine forms and call themselves "Madame/Mademoiselle LE professeur ... LE president ... LE directeur," etc.

"Sexist language" is your personal opinion, and your personal opinion has no place in an encyclopedia. Try reading the rules of Wikipedia for a change.
Why, amongst all UK actresses past and present, do you insist on labelling this particular one as an "actor".
It is a very simple matter. Provide the interview where she self-identifies in this fashion.
This is not a soapbox. This is the career of a respected performer.
Stop harrassing her with your personal notions about how this grandmother from an entirely different generation ought to think or behave.
What business is it of yours to indoctrinate her into your peculiar notions of what is and what is not sexist?
Leave her in peace, Varlaam (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Please provide the interview where she states that she prefers the gender specific language. Looking at your posts you have not read the links provided and you seem to be the one soaping. MarnetteD | Talk 16:38, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The default for someone of her generation is actress. You need to provide a source to deviate from the norm.

And I do apologize for using sexist language right now, when I said "grandmother". That labels her as female. Wikipedia has decreed that there are only grandfathers from now on. Grandmothers no longer exist.

The word "mother" is also offensive to women, according to you. You prefer "female parent" now? "Hi Mum", bad. "Hi, F.P." has your stamp of approval.

Female pronouns, also really bad. Campbell is now a "he", since "she" denigrates her by calling her non-male.

You provide the interview where she regrettably announces that she has been stricken with prostate cancer, or where she calls herself an "actor".

Then it is smooth sailing after that.

No other language insists on pasting male labels on women. This is exclusively an English language obsession, and it is only a subset of English language speakers who think that women are insulted by being called women.

I like women, so I do not feel the need to insult Campbell by calling her a man.

Varlaam (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Actor is not a male label. You seem to feel that women are somehow different then men and need a different label. You also seem incapable of understanding gender neutrality and wikipedia's policy regarding it. The terms aviatrix and murderess have fallen by the wayside. Furthermore, Helen Mirren, who is also from CC's generation is on record as preferring the gender neutral term. DVD commentaries by both men and women, who work in front of and behind the camera, from both the US and the UK, are using the term actor for males and females. The article on actor is well referenced regarding this situation and the link provided above to wikipedia's policy regarding gender neutrality were decided on by consensus of numerous editors, not one. The only person who takes this as an insult seems to be you and the current consensus for this page seems to be for using the gender neutral term. MarnetteD | Talk

List or prose

The Career section of this article is currently pretty much just a list of roles Campbell has played. It "should consist of prose" but if an attempt has been made to make it prose, although there is some limited success in the first few paragraphs, after that it is simply a list, formatted in paragraphs, masquerading as prose. As it is, it falls between two stools and if the purpose of presenting it as prose is so that it "allows the presentation of detail and clarification of context" and so that "significant items should be mentioned naturally within the text rather than merely listed" it does not succeed in doing this. Even though the article should consist of prose, if all we are getting is a list for the time being, it is better if it is formatted so and is presented as prose only when context, significance etc. are added. Mutt Lunker (talk) 19:04, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I assume I am Wiki-naive on this point, but it strikes me that an actor's entry must include what is at essence a CV ~ a list of roles. Other notables may inspire or even require prose, but a working actor is surely defined by her gigs. And that ~ more to the point ~ is also what anyone searching a name wishes to know, as in: where have I seen this person? Kilrea (talk) 05:47, 3 September 2011 (UTC) Kilrea