Talk:Chimes of Freedom (song)

Not song-stub

This is NOT just a song-stub. The book by Marquesee is a fairly significant review of Dylan's early work and politics and should be easily traceable. What is gained by falsely particularising this to a song-stub? Linuxlad 10:08, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's a song. Therefore, it gets a song stub. It's also a book, as you pointed out, so it gets a lit-stub as well. It should be noted that the book is actually titled Chimes of Freedom:The Politics of Bob Dylan's Art, and should have its own article at that name, as it is an important work.

Actually, a quick search shows that there is a substub article of that name - I've just wikified it a little. You might want to move some of the information from this article to it. See Chimes of Freedom: The Politics of Bob Dylan's Art. Grutness|^hello? 10:00, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I don't see this new creation as a gain - sorry. Titles that long take ages to rediscover (espcially since you've got to get the Capitalisation right). But I leave it to others to sort out with some more appropriate redirects. When you've all settled down I'll see if there's anything I can usefully add (I have the book :-))Linuxlad 10:13, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:AnotherSide.jpg

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Lead and covers

Why does the lead jump into who covered it? That's not as important as the song itself, and Dylan's original version. I have my doubts if whether or not should be in the lead at all. Perhaps just a blurb at the end of the article. It is totally trivializing how significant this song is by immediately talking about covers. --Omarcheeseboro (talk) 16:14, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed tag

I have removed the "refimprove" tag from this article suggesting that it "needs additional citations for verification". This is because I have edited the article extensively and inserted multiple inline references to remedy this problem. Kohoutek1138 19:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Dead external links to Allmusic website – January 2011

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The Chimes of Trinity

I added this paragraph to the Bob Dylan's Version section:

'Dave Van Ronk gives this account of the song's origin: "Bob Dylan heard me fooling around with one of my grandmother's favorites, 'The Chimes of Trinity,' a sentimental ballad about Trinity Church, that went something like Tolling for the outcast, tolling for the gay/Tolling for the [something something], long since passed away/As we whiled away the hours, down on old Broadway/And we listened to the chimes of Trinity. He made me sing it for him a few times until he had the gist of it, then reworked it into 'Chimes of Freedom.' Her version was better." '

Van Ronk's preference for the earlier version is interesting but not of overwhelming significance, just as it's interesting but not of overwhelming significance that Dylan learned (according to this account) the original from Van Ronk: Dylan might just as well have learned the song from someone else. What does deserve greater emphasis in the article, however, is that "Chimes of Freedom" is essentially the same song as Michael J. Fitzpatrick's "Chimes of Trinity" of 1895, as you can easily verify for yourself by googling "Chimes of Trinity" and looking at the printed music or listening to it performed on Youtube. TheScotch (talk) 09:48, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

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Reception

I can see a lot of effort has been placed into making the reception of the article. I'm just having a bit of trouble seeing some of its relevance. Maybe context is missing or I just need a clue-level adjustment. For example, when Ian Bell goes talking about those manuscripts, it's not even clear what the correlation to the song is. Those aren't lyrics to "Chimes" as far as I can tell. Second thing about him is that I'm not seeing much praise when he starts that actual review of the song, using words like "overburdened", "failed to ring", etc. Something within that first line should be fleshed out beyond "originality". Last line for Bell is also unsourced. I may have more to say later. dannymusiceditor ^oops 15:12, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Your queries about the Bell comments have some validity, so I've tweaked Bell a bit in an attempt to make his view of the song clearer. When I have time I'll have another look at Bell's book and try to improve. Mick gold (talk) 05:29, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

@Mick gold: Of the 4 biographers singled out in that section, I think it is Dalton who has the longest passages in his book which deal with 'Chimes'. I'll try to add some. Please comment or re-edit as needed. For example, Dalton states: "The scenes in 'Chimes of Freedom' are lit up as if by strobe light--the way the Bible was written, they say, in brilliantly illuminated pictures. Dylan uses a cinematic method of writing, like Kerouac's--with slow motion jump cuts, and freeze frames." JohnWickTwo (talk) 16:10, 8 August 2018 (UTC)

I've had another look at Bell's book and re-written the summary of Bell's view. I can't help thinking if you look at this article through the remorseless critical gaze of the WP:FAC process, there is a problem in having a section called "Interpretation" and a section called "Chimes" among Dylan's biographers." Surely Heylin is a Dylan biographer as well as a critic? I don't see a big difference between the Dylan commentary of Mike Marqusee and the commentary of Ian Bell. I think editors might suggest that you have one section on interpretation of "Chimes" rather than two. Mick gold (talk) 15:50, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

That's persuasive and I have merged the sections which leads to a group of 8 effective commentaries on the song. Possibly you could comment if 8 commentators is sufficient. JohnWickTwo (talk) 17:41, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for doing that. I can't help thinking it looks rather programmatic. The article now has 8 critics giving their interpretation of the song, with each name as sub-section heading. Try to look at other songs that are WP:FA such as "Like a Rolling Stone", "The Long and Winding Road", and I think you'll see the interpretation and comments on the song are written as prose commentary, and not broken into named sections. Mick gold (talk) 22:21, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

The most recent version of the article now posted is trying to follow the outline of "Like a Rolling Stone" here with the Release section now before the newly titled "Reception and critics" section, which retitles the previous "Chimes among the biographers" title. The section devoted to Covers of the song now follows all the other sections of the article to be the new final section. The current version of the outline resembles more closely the "Like a Rolling Stone" model if that's seen as a significant enhancement to the Table of Contents. Should the other sections of "Like a Rolling Stone" be carried over to this article as well for possible development or discussion. JohnWickTwo (talk) 23:54, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

I've re-arranged the critical comments in chronological order, because I think there is a progression from Williams and Marquesee as the earliest, to Bell and Dalton as later critics. I'm away from tomorrow so will not be very active in editing this article. Mick gold (talk) 05:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

@Mick gold: Checking in after a year or so about the article. It seems that this is about as good as the article can get, and the editing looks fairly stable after the additions you made from last time around. Since its as good as it is likely to get then what do you think about doing a possible co-nomination for featured article together. The article looks fairly well edited at this point in time. JohnWickTwo (talk) 23:43, 12 February 2020 (UTC)

I'd be happy to help out a little in getting this up to FA standard, if you want? I am the second biggest contributor to this page currently. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 09:32, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Nice of you to step up like that. DannyMusic is no longer editing due to college obligations, and the last item we discussed was considering getting either a screen capture or a short clip from the Clinton inaugural of Dylan doing this song into the article. Since it was a government event, the images or clips might be public domain [1] if you know how to do this type of editing and saving it as Wikipedia media. JohnWickTwo (talk) 23:34, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

@JohnWickTwo: I'm just starting a new job so I'm afraid I won't have time to be co-nominator for FA. I'll try to keep an eye on it and make constructive contributions if I get time. I've made a few more edits. One suggestion: other FAs have a section called Sources or Bibliography which collects all the sources. See Like a Rolling Stone and The Long and Winding Road as examples. You could make similar section for CoF. I was going to suggest you contact @Kohoutek1138: and @Rlendog: since these two nominated CoF for WP:GA... and Kohoutek1138 has just stepped forward. Good luck. Mick gold (talk) 10:36, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

FA talk

Hi all, I though we should have a dedicated section on this talk page to discuss the process of getting the article up to FA standard. I've done a little bit of copy editing to the lede and first section of the article today and plan to do more. Something that immediately jumps out at me is that some of the inline citations are in a less that perfect state, so I will attempt to tidy those up over the coming week. Also, there seems to be some confusion about when the road trip that Dylan composed all of, or part of, "Chimes of Freedom" on occurred. Paul Williams says that it was in late January 1964, before Dylan's appearance on Canadian TV on February 1st, but the article (as per Clinton Heylin's Revolution in the Air) says that Dylan's early February visit to Canada was before the road trip. Any suggestions about how we resolve this? --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 12:19, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

The dating of this seems related to the JFK theory which guides Heylin's account. If the "writing" of the final version of the song is the main issue here, then Heylin says that the preliminary writing of the poems influencing Chimes should be taken into account, which he dates to the month following Dallas before the start of Winter on December 21, 1963. Williams does not seem to be informed by this account however. The question of the dating of the final version and the preliminary poems as reflecting separate dates seems of some importance to this article. The actual writing of the "final version" of the song, as general musical composition goes, could have lasted until the final recording sessions and last minute changes. The preliminary poems seem to have been written between the end of November and before the start of Winter on December 21, 1963. JohnWickTwo (talk) 13:11, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

Lyric

The "Lyric" section of this article is absurd, and it's absurd because it fails to take into account that Dylan arrived at his version of the lyric merely by distorting the lyric of Michael J. Fitzpatrick's 1895 song "The Chimes of Trinity". The refrain of the latter is "As we whiled away the time away/Down on old Broadway/And listened to the chimes of Trinity". The refrain of Dylan's version is "And we gazed upon the chimes of freedom flashing." Notice that in the original "we listened", whereas in Dylan's distortion "we gazed". That's because the function of chimes is to produce a sound, not a picture. Chimes don't "flash"; they ring. There isn't any deep meaning here; Dylan just didn't want to say "Trinity" (too old-fashioned, too churchy), and that was the best substitution he could come up with--and that best happens to be trivially nonsensical. I'm not claiming that my analysis or opinion belongs in the article. I am claiming that any attempt to exlain Dylan's version must reference the original and that any source that does not do this cannot be considered a valid source. TheScotch (talk) 21:43, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

"The Chimes of Trinity" continues thus: "Tolling for the outcast/Tolling for the gay/Tolling for the millionaire/And friends long past away." Sound familiar? The music here is exactly the same as in the Dylan version. TheScotch (talk) 23:35, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

So, find reliable third-party references that support your analysis and add mention of Fitzpatrick's "The Chimes of Trinity" to the article then. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 14:31, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

This is a robot response that anyone could have written in his sleep--anyone, that is, who neglected to read or couldn't comprehend the last two sentences of my comment above--, and it completely misses the point. We don't need a source to NOT include something in an article. TheScotch (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

There's no need to be rude. You're moaning about the lyric section being "absurd", but offering nothing of any substance to remedy it. The article aleady mentions Dave Van Ronk's claim that "The Chimes of Trinity" was likely an influence on Dylan's song. If you think the lyric section should go into further detail then find a reliable source that explicitly states how the older song informed Dylan's lyrics and add it to the article. Otherwise, there's not much more to say on the matter. The current contents of the "Lyrics" section is fully supported by reliable refs and are the opinions of noted Dyaln biographers/critics, so there's really no need to delete them, just because you think they're not valid. --Kohoutek1138 (talk) 13:39, 26 August 2021 (UTC)

What are you suggesting should NOT be included in the article based on your comment? I don't see anything in the lyric section that is contradicted by your comments, even asssuming you can reliably source them. Rlendog (talk) 18:44, 26 August 2021 (UTC)