Talk:China Car of the Year

Excessive and undue tables in article lead

What do editors think about the group of four tables in the lead? I think that all but the first are unnecessary and undue. They don't follow the conventions and precedents used in other similar 'car of the year'-type articles and fail WP:SYNTH] (we don't see these groupings appear in reliable sources) and unduly emphasis attributes related to the big automotive holding companies. I tried to remove the tables (twice: here and here) but was thwarted (twice: here and here) by the same editor without giving a reasonable explanation as to why they thought they are appropriate, and even making an accusation of vandalism. I propose removing those three tables for the reasons I gave. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:40, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

1. These tables do not contain any original research, they are merely presentations of data and facts, it is statistics.
2. "Unduly emphasis attributes related to the big automotive holding companies"? The automobile industry is a game of capital, and any automobile brand is based on its research foundation in the context of capital. This is not some commercial marketing trick to appease fans of the brand's country of origin. Without the research funding support from India's Tata, Jaguar Land Rover would have disappeared in the long river of history. Why should we deny the efforts of its capital source for the brand's achievements? This is very much like RACISM.

Infinty 0 (talk) 07:57, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The first table is a good presentation of the awards for each year but does not allow any extra detail.

The main body of the article also displays this same information but allows extra detail to be added - eg 2024 says 「"The Green Car of the Year" was replaced by "Budget Car of the Year"」.

The "Winner by" tables don't add much but they do clutter up the article, making the real information harder to see. Also, when selecting the column order to put the worst at the top, the top few are mostly Chinese owned brands. I am not sure why you want to emphasis that.

I would choose the top table or the main text but not both. I would delete the "Winner by" tables.  Stepho  talk  13:43, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Flags

Per MOS:FLAG, flags should not be used in situations such as those in this article, so I propose removing them from this article, especially as they are being used unduly here to over-emphasise the nationality of the top-level holding companies rather than, as is more usual, the companies that design, manufacture, and market the vehicles. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:51, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

The automobile industry is a game of capital, and any automobile brand is based on its research foundation in the context of capital. This is not some commercial marketing trick to appease fans of the brand's country of origin. Without the research funding support from India's Tata, Jaguar Land Rover would have disappeared in the long river of history. Why should we deny the efforts of its capital source for the brand's achievements? This is very much like RACISM. Infinty 0 (talk) 07:58, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

MOS:FLAG makes it very clear that flags are only to be used where the country is of vital importance to the fact (eg teams in international sports competitions). For this article, the vitally important fact is the brand of the vehicle, not the country.

Looking at many of the articles in category:Motor vehicle awards, I don't see flags being common. Even the international Car of the Year article doesn't use flags.

Curiously, I experimented with the sorting order on the "Winner by brands" table. When each column was sorted to display the worst at the top, every column was topped by brands owned by Chinese companies. I'm not sure why you would want to emphasise that.

When I try to sort by brand it actually sorts by the flags instead of by the brand. I am much more interested in the brand.

Car companies change owners more than some people change their underwear. A Chinese owned company this year might be an Indian owned company next year. An Indian owned company this year might be a Chinese owned company next year. I care about the brand, not its current owner.  Stepho  talk  13:32, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

So you don't think the automotive industry has a strong correlation with the country of origin? The automobile industry is an industry with strong political attributes. As an observer of the automobile industry, I can clearly say that the automobile industry is related to the lives of millions of people and to international geopolitics. Any attempt to obscure the country of origin behind a car brand is either emotional naive, or commercially driven, or politically motivated.

Just because other articles about the Car of the Year awards do not use the flag icons do not mean that this article cannot use it. The flag icon is more informative and can also help readers understand the topic on a deeper level, that is, the country of origin of a car brand and the holding company behind it are definitely not insulated. I believe there will always be readers who want to look at this topic from a higher perspective.

As for the situation where the ownership of the car brand changes, this is technically very easy to solve. If the same brand is controlled by India and wins awards, it will be marked as Indian. If it is converted into a Chinese car the following year, it will be marked as Chinese.

If too many tables at the beginning of the article tend to distract the reader, I think a better compromise would be to put the "winner by" table in a separate section at the end of the article. Infinty 0 (talk) 14:39, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Re: "As an observer of the automobile industry". As someone who has actually worked in the automobile industry (including projects with Chinese owned Volvo in 2014-2018), I can say with confidence that the top level ownership does not control the nature of the vehicles. The company culture is very much from the origin country, not the current owners. I have also worked with Chinese companies - did some software work with the China Institute of Atomic Energy about 2002 (where they let me stand on top of their Chernobyl style reactor), Hong Kong Mass Transit Railway in 1994 and numerous banks in China. I found them to be quite different to Western cultures - not better or worse, just different. Volvo was nothing like a Chinese company at the engineer level.

Personally, I find the insistence of putting flags on the brands is racist. It's trying to say "hey, look, my country is better than yours!". Better to leave politics out of it and judge the cars on their own merits (surely China still follows the Confucian idea of meritocracy).

And it's still weird that your tables emphasise that Chinese owned brands tend to be last in every "Winner by" table.  Stepho  talk  10:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

You're missing the point. The development of the automobile industry is fundamentally driven by capital, rather than a certain culture embraced by a certain company. Without Geely's (which is from China) capital injection, Volvo's "Nordic" business culture would have long been a historical term.

How could using the flag be associated with racism? Is it racist for athletes on the Olympic podium to watch the flag rising? If your kid fails to graduate first in school and unable to deliver a valedictorian speech, would you accuse the teachers of being racist? If a person or a company is better than its peers and that strength is recognized, then that is a FACT, rather than subjective assumptions.

As for the table problem, it should be caused by the default sorting when making the table. This can be fixed. Infinty 0 (talk) 17:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Infinty 0, MOS:FLAG says Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality.

Cars don't represent countries in 'car of the year' competitions, they represent car marques and models. We don't see the mainstream media reporting that Germany won the 2024 China Car of the Year award. We see them saying that the BMW i7 won the award. You are making a nonsense of the guidelines.

Additionally, MOS:FLAGCRUFT says Wikipedia is not a place for nationalistic pride. Flags are visually striking, and placing a national flag next to something can make its nationality or location seem to be of greater significance than other things. It seems like you are more interested in inflating nationalistic pride and exaggerating the significance of the nationality of automotive conglomerates, especially by aggregating brands together under the flag of their parent conglomerate even when it is obvious to most neutral 'observers of the automobile industry' that that is a gross misrepresentation of the reality of the marque in question.

Remember, this is an encyclopaedia, and the guidelines are there for a reason - we need to present the facts in an as neutral and impartial light as possible. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, cars don't represent countries in 'car of the year' competitions, but a little flag icon could probably remind the readers where the winner comes from. Award-winning car brands have holding companies behind them, and the holding companies have their countries of origin. This is called fact. No matter how you exaggerate or belittle the facts, you cannot change the facts themselves.

Yes, I'm a native Chinese, but your accusation of "inflating nationalistic pride" simply does not hold water. As you can see in the table, German cars dominate the China Car of the Year. Chinese people love German cars more than cars from other countries (everybody knows this and here in China we're the biggest market for German car) What kind of nationalism is this? Infinty 0 (talk) 17:27, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

@Infinty 0, you say Yes, cars don't represent countries in 'car of the year' competitions. This is a 'car of the year' article, hence we should not have flags that do nothing but represent nationalities. So you are confirming that the flags contravene MOS:FLAG. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:41, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Any problem? I did not just put the flags in the table, but also cars model name in it, right? I never said Germany won the 2024 China Car of the Year award, but I put BMW i7 in it, right? Infinty 0 (talk) 17:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

So, given that the nationalities are totally irrelevant as this isn't a competition between car models representing nations, what do you think the flag icons are there for? -- DeFacto (talk). 18:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment: Any arguments justifying the flag use is pretty much rendered void by the MOS:FLAGCRUFT MoS policy. If the MoS dictated that editors should not place flags beside Paul McCartney's name, how would one justify placing an Indian flag beside Range Rover Velar? A person does have a nationality, but Wikipedia explicitly asked editors not to emphasize their nationality. Cars does not have a nationality.

This might not be directly relevant, but I'm just laying out my perspective: in Wikipedia context, I personally would avoid referencing or labeling nationality on specific car models. It could be fine for brands. "Land Rover Defender is a British SUV built by Jaguar Land Rover" is hard to justify because the Defender is built in Slovakia and JLR is owned by an Indian company. I would write "Land Rover Defender is an SUV built by British manufacturer Jaguar Land Rover". Andra Febrian (talk) 16:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Cars have no nationality?

Well to be honest this is just an illusion and self-deception. If it were not for German brands, the Chinese would not be obsessed with Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz, and if it were not for Japanese brands, Americans would not be obsessed with Toyota and Honda. Just face it, cars have nationalities, and every car consumer will put a nationality label on their cars.

The controversy lies in the fact that certain national flags cannot be marked on brands that some people are fond of, rather than whether cars have nationality.

Again, this is not some commercial marketing trick to appease fans of the brand's country of origin. I understand that some people can't stand the Indian flag next to Land Rover Jaguar, or the Chinese flag next to Volvo, but this is Wikipedia, information should be objective and fact-based. Infinty 0 (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Read what I said. "in Wikipedia context, I personally would avoid referencing or labeling nationality on specific car models." You or anyone else are allowed to claim the Range Rover Velar is Indian, British, or any nationality outside Wikipedia, you have every right to do so, and I have no comment on that. (edit: I previously said cars have no nationality, I'll admit that is my opinion yet it aligns with Wikipedia policy regarding original research as explained below) We are writing in a website that apparently have rules against editors doing their own research, or putting flags on people or objects, so we follow the rules. Any kind of argument would've fall flat because guess what, you don't own the website and I don't either. My comment was about reminding the policy.

Since editors should be objective and fact-based, that means we have to be careful of stating facts, such as claiming that the Range Rover Velar is an Indian car. That would fall under WP:ORIGINALRESEARCH in which the idea of the Velar being Indian is has no reliable, published source. The facts that are available with reliable sources are: Jaguar Land Rover Automotive PLC is the legal manufacturer of the Velar as indicated by the VIN plate and the VIN number itself, not Tata Motors. It is directly verifiable physically on the car. According to the JLR legal documents, and vouched by reliable sources such as news outlets, JLR is a British-registered company, therefore JLR is legally British despite receiving money from India. Some Wikipedia editor writing that JLR is Indian = original research, and should be removed from Wikipedia. Someone personally claiming JLR is Indian = not an issue.

My point is, labeling nationalities on cars isn't a thing that a Wikipedia editor is allowed to do in Wikipedia.

"Again, this is not some commercial marketing trick to appease fans of the brand's country of origin." I didn't say it is. Andra Febrian (talk) 17:56, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

I have to reiterate my point again (hope you can see the previous reply). I don't quite understand why labeling a car country of origin would become so-called "original research". Jaguar Land Rover Automotive PLC is a wholly-owned subsidiary of India's Tata, which is very clear in Tata's financial report and balance sheet. This is called a fact, an obvious, common-sense level fact.

It is also very clear that the Land Rover Velar is developed, marketed and supported by the funds from its parent, the India's Tata, and merely manufactured by a subsidiary of India's Tata. This is fact too. The VIN number and the location of registration of the subsidiary do not support the fact that Jaguar Land Rover is a British-owned company, and this goes against common financial accounting principles.

And according to MOS:FLAGCRUFT, there isn't such guideline that we should not label nationalities on cars. The use of the flag icons in this article does not comply with any of the "inappropriate use" cases mentioned in it. Infinty 0 (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

WP:OR: "This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources"

A Wikipedia editor reads JLR's annual report, read its financial reports and shareholder, and came up with a conclusion that the company produces Indian cars. At the very least, that is an improper synthesis. The report is unlikely to say "we produce Indian cars", meaning it is not explicitly stated by the source. Articles written by auto journalists (that are reliable sources) explicitly says the cars are British, so there's a conflicting info, meaning it's not as obvious as you would think. Andra Febrian (talk) 12:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

Your argument is very far-fetched. First of all, Jaguar Land Rover's annual report is public information, and like any descriptive source quoted on Wikipedia, it is straightforward, public-opened, and that does not require any "research"or "analysis"

Secondly, the flag icon next to the vehicle does not refer to the country of manufacturing of the vehicle, but the country of origin of its parent company, which I have stated again and again. Infinty 0 (talk) 15:25, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

It requires "research" to assume that a Land Rover car is Indian, when the annual report does not explicitly say that. Andra Febrian (talk) 02:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Given the majority support for removing them, I have now removed the flags. -- DeFacto (talk). 07:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@DeFacto Given by majority support or based on fact? Infinty 0 (talk) 12:52, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

@Infinty 0, based on Wikipedia guidelines (MOS:FLAG and MOS:FLAGCRUFT) there is majority support for the removal of the flags. That is why I removed them. That you then restored them again verges on being disruptive, and that could lead to you being sanctioned by an administrator. I suggest you accept the majority view and revert your restoration. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:02, 12 April 2024 (UTC)

I have made my point very clear, but you have not provided any valuable reasons to convince me except for the so-called "majority's opinion" and the MOS:FLAGCRUFT without any case support. Remember, your so-called "majority opinion" is not an opinion based on fact. And here in Wikipedia, we prefer fact and reason, not tyranny of the majority. We prefer fact-based discussion and debate rather than your emotional accusations. Threats and slander cannot change my position, only facts and evidence will.

Btw, do you really realize the meaning of your Wiki ID? Is this some kind of sarcasm? Infinty 0 (talk) 15:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

The fact is that those car models do not represent a countries in the car of the year competition (unlike, say, athletes at the Olympics) so fail the test for inclusion of a flag per MOS:FLAG. As the talkpage shows, that is the consensus amongst interested editors, and Wikipedia article content is dictated by consensus per WP:CONSENSUS. -- DeFacto (talk). 15:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)

MOS:FLAG states "Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams." For this article, the cars are representing only the car. Other cars within the same brand did not win the award. The brand did not win the award. Only a single design of car. They are not representing their countries - not for design, manufacture or parent ownership. It is not like the Olympic games where a country is declared as a winner.

MOS:FLAGCRUFT says "Wikipedia is not a place for nationalistic pride." It gives an example of singer Paul McCartney. He is definitely English but it is not appropriate to put an English flag next to his name.

You have tried to show that Lotus is Chinese and Volvo is Chinese. We are not agreed that being owned by a Chinese company makes the brand Chinese. Example 1, I am Australia born of European descent - when I was living and working in China I was receiving money from Chinese companies and I was paying tax to China and buying food, rent, etc from Chinese companies, I had a Chinese address, my ID card has a Chinese name and my wife is fully Chinese - none of that makes me Chinese. Example 2, Holden in Australia designed and sold cars in Australia as Australian cars - even though Holden was owned by US company GM and even though they used some US engines. Same for Ford Australia. Example 3, SAAB was similar in being owned by US based GM and using GM engines but still being considered a Swedish company. Example 4, I worked for Volvo about 8 years ago helping to put CNG on the V60 and V70 and there was nothing there that gave any hint about not being Swedish (very good Volvo museum in Gotenberg if you can get there). These companies are still strongly connected to their country of origin, even though they are owned by a foreign company. Further example, my children are Australian, even though they have a Chinese parent. The country of the company is not the same thing as the country of the parent. But even if we did agree about brand ownership (we do not) then MOS:FLAGCRUFT still says flags are not appropriate.

So, we have:

• No MOS support for adding flags.
• MOS support for not adding flags.
• The actual country of each car has not been settled.

From these 3 points it is obvious that flags are not appropriate here.  Stepho  talk  03:25, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

This sounds reasonable, and I removed the flag icons on the winner model list and brand list. But the icon of the country of origin of the automobile group should be able to be retained, for there is no controversy on their nationality. Infinty 0 (talk) 15:43, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Flags on the "Winner by manufacturers groups" table

@Infinty 0, I see you've now removed the flags from the first two of the tables. Thanks for doing that. But why are you still objecting to the removal of the flags from the "Winner by manufacturers groups" table? In what way does that comply with MOS:FLAG? -- DeFacto (talk). 15:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Because there is no controversy on their nationality. Infinty 0 (talk) 15:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Infinty 0, as we have seen above, whether flags are acceptable, or not, does not depend on nationality, it depends on whether the requirements per MOS:FLAG/MOS:FLAGCRUFT have been met. These flags fail the tests specified there as the ones in the first two tables did. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:18, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think the use of the flag icon violates the guidelines and there is no problem with the use of the flag icon on manufacturer group table.

Firstly, the nationality of the manufacturer group is not in controversy (the EU icon can be removed if Stellantis counts). Secondly, the flag icon does not mean that the group represents a certain country in the competition, but rather to show where the parent group comes from. This is the additional useful message for readers.

In the MOS:FLAG which clearly states for what purpose we should use of flag icon: "They should provide additional useful information on the article subject, serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension, or improve navigation." Infinty 0 (talk) 17:04, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

@Infinty 0, your quote isn't from "MOS:FLAG", it's from the MOS:ICONDECORATION section of the MOS:ICON guidelines, and is the part of the guideline that applies to icons in general.

The MOS:FLAG section of MOS:ICON talks specifically about where flag icons are appropriate and where they are inappropriate.

Under "Appropriate use" it says:

• Flag icons may be relevant in some subject areas, where the subject actually represents that country or nationality – such as military units or national sports teams.
  • That is clearly not the case here.
• In lists or tables, flag icons may be relevant when such representation of different subjects is pertinent to the purpose of the list or table itself.
  • Which is clearly not he case here either as the purpose of the "Winner by manufacturers groups" table is not to distinguish the nationalities of the "manufacturers groups", it is to simply classify the winners by these groups.

Under "Inappropriate use", the applicable section, MOS:FLAGCRUFT, says:

• Wikipedia is not a place for nationalistic pride. Flags are visually striking, and placing a national flag next to something can make its nationality or location seem to be of greater significance than other things. For example, with an English flag next to him, Paul McCartney looks like an "English singer-songwriter from Liverpool who was in the Beatles"; without the flag next to him, he looks like an "English singer-songwriter from Liverpool who was in the Beatles". Emphasizing the importance of a person's citizenship or nationality above their other qualities risks violating Wikipedia's "Neutral point of view" policy.
  • That is exactly how they are being used here.

Hence, the flags in the "Winner by manufacturers groups" are definitely inappropriate and so should be removed. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Validity of "Winner by country origins" table

This table is unsourced, fails WP:OR, and looks like POV pushing. For example, looking at the 'Design' category winners, how are the following implied conclusions verifiable?:

• Maserati Grecale is a European (not Italian) car
• Land Rover Defender is an Indian car
• Bentley Flying Spur is a German car
• Volvo XC40 is a Chinese car
• Range Rover Velar is an Indian car
• Jaguar F-Type is an Indian car
• DS 5 is a European (not French) car

Given the difficulty in defining the nationality of a car which may be designed in more than one country, engineered in more that one other countries, manufactured in more that one countries, and with all those things totally managed and controlled by a company which has a different nationality to its parent company. And on top of that how do we determine the nationality of Stellantis - a multinational merger of French, Italian, and American companies headquartered in the Netherlands. I propose that we remove this table altogether. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I see the difficulty. Ford Bronco for example was designed and developed for the most part in Australia, based on an SUV based on a truck that is manufactured in Thailand Rayong (AAT); Rayong (FTM),United States: Wayne, Michigan (Michigan Assembly Plant),South Africa: Silverton, Pretoria (Ford South Africa), Argentina: Buenos Aires (Ford Argentina),Vietnam: Hai Duong (Ford Vietnam), and China: Nanchang (Jiangling Ford Auto). So assigning a nationality is rather hard. Greglocock (talk) 21:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Support removal of all flags and tables where importance of the context cannot be verified. Many of these are built in Britain by British companies. Yes, 'Bentley Motors Ltd' is owned by a German company. But it is also a publicly traded company with many shareholders from around the globe - including sovereign wealth funds. Let's say a car's design team came from 30 different countries, where would it end? You really need the context of China Car of the Year telling what nationalities they are. I face this type of conversation all the time in motorsport articles.

Remove.Rally Wonk (talk) 22:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Support. As I said in the previous discussion in this page, assigning nationalities to cars are at least improper synthesis (of sources, which are not cited here), but mostly original research. I personally have avoided mentioning references to nationality in car articles for this reason. Andra Febrian (talk) 03:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Removed it as unopposed. -- DeFacto (talk). 17:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)