Talk:Chokha

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A chokha (Georgian: ჩოხა; Azerbaijani: çuxa; Russian: черкеска) is part of the traditional male dress of the peoples of the Caucasus. It has been in wide use among Georgians from 9th century until 1920s[1] and among Azeris between the 17th and the 20th century.[2]

The first sentence should make clear what exactly it *is*. Interpolating from the whole article, it's probably the "coat" part (?) - but this should be made clear initially! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.61.157.244 (talk) 23:08, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Is this a joke? 128.177.102.51 (talk) 04:08, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

It is made clear my friend it is Caucasian dress, it does not belong to any caucasian nation specificly, all contributed in creating it at some point. However it originally camr from Georgia from Eastern slope of Caucasus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.219.138.254 (talk) 15:41, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how to make a refferences but in the second refference about the Azeri clothes you can find about the "Cherkezi Chukha" and you can check on google too about it in every Azeri tourism site you can find about Cherkezi Chukha and other Chukhas, they got some types of Chukha and the one that Georgians claim that it is theirs, the Azeris call it Cherkezi chukha (Cherkes fabric) even someone added the authentic Georgian Chukha which more similar to the Azerian authentic cloth, and you can check everywhere the word "Chokha" or "Chukha" isn't Georgian word at all.Sawserok (talk) 11:11, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

To Avaza who changes, tell me if the Persians and Turks who invaded Georgia for centuries then why they didn't called the costume "Gurji (Georgian) Chokha"? The Azeris call it "Cherkezi Chokha" it explains alot don't you think? and the Russians knew Georgians they had diplomatic relations with Georgians beacase both were Orthodox christians so why they didn't called the costume "Gruzinka" but "Cherkesska"? and many of the Chokha elements are not in Georgian language, for instance the Arkhalukhi originaly "Arxalıq" isn't in Georgian language too but Turkic and Persian, and the trousers which Georgians call "Sharwali" is in Arabic "Sharwal" and the hat "Papakhi" is in Turkic "Papakha". the "Talavari" Georgians call is the authentic and original Georgian costumes that Georgian wear, you can see it in the third photo, the Khevesur or Laz or Adjarian Chokha, no way that Georgians call all these "Talavari"Sawserok (talk) 10:49, 16 September 2010 (UTC) my dear I dont know who u are but Azers call it not "Cherkessi Chokha" but Chokha as general. Secondly Russians call it Cherkeska because they came in Caucasus through Kabardia and first time saw Talavari in kabardia however later on they too agreed that cloth is authentic to Georgians, even though name remained the same they published numbers of publications where they always refered chokha as Georgian dress. As for akhalukhi in old Georgian language it was called Tarzeuli (meaning body cover) for hat original name is Kabalakhi and is still used in Georgia. As for azers though it does not make much difference what they call the dress because they came in Caucasus in mid century, Talavar existed in Georgia long before they even arrived in Caucasus so that is nort relavant in any ways —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.219.138.254 (talk) 15:31, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Lets agree on something in here.. I agree that common Caucasian chokha (that derived from Kartl Kakheti Chokha) came from north and was little longer than original one but originally dress came from Georgia of southern slopes of caucasus and not north. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.219.138.254 (talk) 15:37, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Kabalakhi is the Hood not the hat, and of course you can invent now new words to say it is Georgian. Georgian dress is similar but different, the Georgian authentic cloth can be seen in the third photo and NO it is not Adjarian cloth, I added Adjarian and Laz clothes photos there, and nobody agree that the general caucasian costume came from Georgians, it is an assumption of Georgians. A nation that calls its national clothes in Turkic and Persian is wierd don't you agree? do you know in all caucasus all caucasians call it Chokha\Chokib\Chokhob\Tsukha. But only Circassias call it in their own native language and it got meanings in their language, i know because i am Circassian. Ask your neigbhours the Azeris and they will tell that they call it "Cherkezi Chokha", and their authentic clothes is just like your authentic clothes too just like in the third photo (Kartli-Kakheti), so you got to discuss with them about itSawserok (talk) 20:25, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

for sawserok

I dont know whoever u are but here is a news for you "friend" you can not assume some stuff and then sell them as facts on global internet encyclopedia. It is called Plagiarism just in case u did not know. Just because Russians Call it Cherkeska what it is cherkessian dress al the sudden now? The dress derived in Georgia and has been in wide use among Georgians and northern caucasians including Adigeans and Vainakhs for centuries. Dress can not belong to no nation or caucasian ethnic group they all contributed at some point. However Talaveri (Chokha) originated in Georgia due to constant conflicts and invaisions. North caucasians used longer coat compard to Georgian version and later on it became known as general caucasian Chokha, however general caucasian chokha derived from Georgian most likely Kartl-Kakheti Chokha most likely first in Wainakhs and than in adigas. Georgians used heavy fur coat along with talavari called Nabadi (in Georgian means extra atribute or extra cloth on talavari). Azers call it Chokha, maybe they somewhere called it Circassian chokha but it does not mean it is Circassian does it? in that case Georgians could say that State of Georgia achivements belong to Republic of Georgia but it would not work aut so would it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.219.138.254 (talk) 15:55, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

From the Azeri site in the refferences you check it and you will see some Chokhas there they too call their national cloth Chokha but to the generaly Caucasian Chokha they call "Cherkezi Chokha" this is not an assumption this is a fact an Azeri showed this to me personaly, and Russians call it Cherkesska again a fact. this is from the refferences : "Чуха - этот вид верхней мужской одежды в Азербайджане имел две разновидности - "везнели" и "черкези". Воротник обоих видов чухи кроился открытым.

Рукава чухи "везнели" кроились прямыми и длинными и к каждой груди пришивали так называемые "хезины" для "везне". В эти "хезины" надевались "везне" украшенные серебром или золотом.

Другая разновидность чухи - "черкези" отличалась от "везнели" по своему крою. Подкладка накладных рукавов чухи "черкези" сшивалась из шелковой ткани, по всему разрезу рукавов пришивали пуговицы или петли."

if you can atleast read Russian you can see "черкези" = Cherkezi and there is another kind of chokha - "везнели" = Vezneli, now this is theirs originaly Russians had relations with Georgian before they invaded Caucasus, they had contacts with Georgians in diplomacy and other interacts they both were Orthodox christians and they knew them, then why they didn't called the cloth "Gruzinka"? Georgians got four types of Costumes : Adjarians wear something else, Khevesurs wear something else (and they live in mountain area near Chechens and still they don't wear the generaly Caucasian chokha, you said Chokha came from Kartli-Kakheti reigon, but why Khevesurs wear totaly different thing?), Laz wear something else, Kartli-Kakhetian wear something else, so do yo want to tell me that all these clothes are called "Talavari"??? maybe you call all it Chokha but sure that these clothes are not the same at all, i even added photos of Laz and Adjarian clothes, and the third photo is the authentic Georgian national cloth with the Khevesur cloth. the Nabadi you call is known more with its Turkic name "Burka" but Circassians call it "Shakwa" or "Sakwa" means coat. Nice assumptions you got the Cherkesska came from Kartli-Kakheti cloth, I can say the opposition ain't i? or i can say it has no connection it is just similar, if you look at Turkomen clothes from Turkmenistan :

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2365/2534413882_804a59cc20.jpg?v=0

you can see alot of similarity only no bullets on the chest and they even wear the big fur hat, in the world there are similartieis in national clothes even they if have no connections, so that Kartli-Kakheti chokha i know it is in third photo and indeed it is a coat somehow similar to the cherkesska, but as i showed you the Turkmen cloth too there are similarities, these kind of clothes were common to horsemen, even some mongolian nations got similar clothes. and the name "Georgia" isn't Georgia true name, it came from ancient Greeks "Gai-org" which means "land worker", you can check it too with Greeks (do you know in Israel they call you that way by the way? they call you Gaiorgia), later Kartvelians connected themselv's to saint George that is why the name "Georgia" appeared. comparing Caucasian Georgia to USA Georgia isn't like Cherkesska and Cherkezi chokha at all.Sawserok (talk) 20:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Azeri references or not, like I said before whether azers call it cherkezi chukha or chokha does not matter because they came in Caucasus in mid centuries when dress was already long invented. And look man just because Russians and azers call it cherkeska does not prrrooooove that Outfit originated in Circassia. In Georgia we have four types of dresses Khevsur (possibly the oldest one of them all) Adjarian, Kartl-kakhetian and General caucasian. They are all called talavari in Georgia... Circassia as barelly even populated in 9th century due to hard living conditions not much people lived there and generally lived their lives based on nomadic llifestyle. This dress originated in Country such as Georgia and not in some wasteland.... most likely Circassians and wainakhs copied this dress from Georgians in 9th to 11th centuries when David builder United entire Caucasus including Circassia under his one rule. However I am not owner of this web page but I am the author of this article, entire thing I wrote So I will not have u vandalising my contribution. U can write under my article that circassians believe that it has originated in Circassia because azeris call it circassian chokha. But fact that is proven so far and one that entire world knows is that it originated from Georgia. This is encyclopedia where people write facts not their personal assumptions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.232.237 (talk) 02:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

p.s that link u posted is turkish dress not Georgian. The picture that u aploaded looks like Laz chokha however it even has some of turkish and Armenian elements in it. It is most unlikely Georgian dress I have ever seen. here are some of circassian dresses that look nothing like Georgian Talavari http://www.kelebekler.com/circassians.jpg http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/9B9927BF-0E0B-4178-B4C0-1C67B880763F/AABR003972.jpg there ienjoy those are the circassian originated dresses —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.184.232.237 (talk) 03:11, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

for you Georgian

Assumptions?? how old are you anyway? first of all the first link you put here are Women's dress called "Sai" of courese it is not "Talavari" the second link you can see the one who wears green?, what is it like??? what it got on his chest? (those are princes by the way) and look the others around him they got the "Nabadi" on them and if you look very well you can see that they wear the known Caucasian Cherkesska. and the photo i uploaded there written : the first man 1 - Georgian prince and the middle man 3- Circassian miltia man from Anapa drawn by Gagarin this is your original "Talavari" :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Georgian_costumes.jpg

even your daggers are not straight originaly.

you say it doesn't matter if Azeris and Russians call it Cherkezi and Cherkesska, you think this fact has no weight? is it a coinsidence that two nations called it "Cherkes"?? one from north and the second from south? (not to mention that Azeris are far from us), Azeris are close to you geographicly how come they didn't called it Gurji (Georgian) Chokha? i gave you proofs facts that are on the table, it is you who conclude things, you put that Abashidze 1985 refference, but how can i know if it is authentic? show me refferences from the internet and not from books that are not reachable, i can post a book name too that you can't reach, it is easy you know. Circassia was barely populated??? what if i will tell you that there were more Circassians living in the caucasus than Georgian? even now after a genocide and in diaspora we still 3-4 million and Georgians today 4 million, how much you think we would have be if there were no genocide?? Georgia was a formal country with formal army and formal police, but Circassia was never a formal country it had no army nor police but tribal laws and tribal warriors, so tell me to what kind of status the caucasian coat is more likely fit to be?? Do you think that in Georgia every man was armed from the legs to the head and walked around in the streets? where was the army where was the police?, while in Circassia all were freelancer warriors, invaded by many enemies (just like Georgia). you say the coat came from mountain areas then why the Khevesurs didn't wear it? (in fact they wear a real authentic Georgian cloth from medieval times) there was a time in medeival era that Kassogs (Kabardians) invaded Imereti in medieval times then you adopted the cloth (until now you got Cherkezishvili surnames in Georgia descendents from Circassians) later Circassians put the bandolier on the chest when gun powder was reachable, even the Russians call it "Gazari", in Circassian language "Kezarix" which means reachable, not to mention the "Shashka" sword in Circassian language "Shashkua" which means large blade (even in the new photo you uploaded that written Georgians with authentic Chokha they hold our "Sahshkua"), facts are facts. and you wrote this bullshit there that because Persians and Turks invaded Georgia they called the cloth Chokha so tell me suddenly Georgians throw the "Talavari" name and adopted the Turkic-Persian name for their national cloth??!! well excuse me nobody will take this seriously, now this is a nice theory of you nice assumption. Even your Adjarian cloth is taken from Pontic Greeks, even in your dances you dance "Shalakho" which is danced in Azerbaijan and Armenia, and you play the Armenian "Duduk" and call it "Duduki", and what the dancers wear in "Kintauri" old Tbilisi dance?? is it Talavari too?? if you coppied these things then only God knows what other things you coppied from others... Sharwali, Arkhalukhi please excuse me i didn't want to write this but i have to, you are just another nationalist Georgian liar. We indeed adopted many things from Georgians, we adopted Christianity and Churches of Georgian type, we adopted polyphonic songs from Georgians, but Georgians adopted many things from us too and that includes the known Caucasian coat.Sawserok (talk) 13:27, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

P.S, I just found this : გეოგრაფიული და კლიმატური პირობებიდან გამომდინარე, საქართველოს ყველა კუთხის სამოსი ერთმანეთისგან განხვავდება. ასევე განსხვავდება ბარის, მთისა და ზღვის სამოსი. მაგალითად, აჭარელის შესამოსელი არის მოკლე ჩოხა და ქვია “ჩაქურა.” იგი გურიაშიც იყო გავრცელებული. მისი დამახასიათებელი აქსესუარებია ქსოვილის ქამარი და პაჭიჭები. ხევსურულ სრულ შესამოსელს ქვია “ტალავარი.” ტალავარი არის ქალისა და მამაკაციას სამოსის კომპლექტი. ფეოდალურ საქართველოში გავრცელებული სამოსელის სხვადასხვა სახეობებია: სამეფო-სადედოფლო, საერისკაცო, სამოხელეო, სამღვდელთმოძღვრო, ბერული, ვაჭრული, სამხედრო, სამგზავრო ანუ საღარიბო, სადიაცო, სამამაცო. ძირითადად, ძველად ორი სახის სამოსი გამოიყენებოდა: საშინაოს “საცვეთს” უწოდებდნენ და საგარეოს ერქვა “სანამუსო.” სანამუსოთი ადამიანები იმოსებოდნენ ქორწილში, დღეობებზე, ხატობებზე. ერთი ხელი სანამუსო შესამოსელი ოჯახის ყველა წევრს ჰქონდა.

in this : http://7days.ge/index2.php?newsid=1604]

"Talavari" (ტალავარი) is the name of the Khevesuretians costume only, so maybe it is your original costume from the begining.Sawserok (talk) 14:37, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

look man we can go on arguing like this forever. Kabardians invaided Imereti? that is nonsence man kabardians never got anything to do imereti its all the way on the other side of Georgia, kabardia is bordered next to Svaneti and Racha. And who said Georgians did not adopt many things from Adigeans, ofcause they did, but I can guarantee that Talavari was not one of them. Georgians did not have formal army even though it was a country untill 18th century. Kartli and kakheti were two provinces that were only low lands in my country neighbouring to turkey and Azerbaijan, who used to run over these lands all the time with no varning so people had to be prepared 24/7 thats why Georgians dressed like that so that Masri (means cutter in Georgian thats on the chest part of chokha could be always in close reach).. Ok look man I am really tired of all these games so offer u this I will take down the origination part and put Caucasus in there as whole, because on the other hand it belongs to wainakhs just as much it belongs to Georgians and Adigas... and that book u may type it in the google that will pop up the text that I am talking about, in the reference one is not supposed to give web page address but the sourse he is talking about. And there are 4 million circassians in total left after the Genoside not in Caucasus but in total. In mid centuries yes North Caucasus was barelly populated because of hard living conditions. The most populated parts of the north was Kabardia Circassia and Dagistan, and parts of Chechnya. It was very hard to travel in there. Azers may call it Cerkeska, but Turks Armens, Persians and Arabs all called it Chokha, and they all got that as name of the dress in Georgia not in Circassia. Azers may call it cherkeska but Arabs Turks Armens Persians and even sometimes Greeks call it Chokha which they got from Georgia not from circassia proper. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avaza (talk • contribs) 21:00, 17 September 2010 (UTC) P.S in the pictures that I posted Circassians yes he has some thing on the chest but he is for sure not wearing Talavari. Talavari is still used in Khevsureti and mtskheta-mtianeti district of Georgia as word to describe the chokha. And it used to be refered to describe all kinds of chokhas used in Georgia not just Khevsur version of it. Khevsur chokha is most likely the one that Caucasian chokha derived from. Caucasuan Chokha was created in 9th century. Not anytime before that, untill that time there was common long dress with pockets on the chestplaces that was spread out in entire caucasus. in 10th century when pauder was starting to become popular atribute in wars they replaced pockets with pauder. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avaza (talk • contribs) 21:12, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Talavari is Khevesur dress, i asked even a Khevesur man i met in some forum, the Chokha is the known caucasian coat and it was never called Talavari, even i posted here a Georgian link that confirms it. Khevesurs are the only people in the caucasus and Georgia that preserved many medieval costumes. Indeed in the picture you uploaded the Circassians don't wear Talavari because Talavari is Khevesur dress, they wear the early type of the Cherkesska you can see even in the chest they got the pockets.

Khevesur chokha got nothing to do with the cherkesska, it is not made like it not from shape and not from size, it doesn't look the same at all, the Khevesur dress is more like a shirt not a coat.

Look i gave you my proofs, i gave you the links, i gave you facts how different people call it and it shows that it came from Circassians.

and Arabs don't call it chokha, Arabs don't know what it is, i know because i live in an Arabian country in diaspora.

but the word Chokha is "Fabric" in Persian and Turkish languages, that is a fact, ask every Perisan and every Turkish or Azeri if you like.Sawserok (talk) 12:40, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

You gave your links and what you think but so did I. General caucasian chokha derived from Kartl- Kakheti chokha man it is simply little longer version of it and has top ziped because of cold conditions. I showed u bunch of pictures in which circassians wear dress nothing like chokha but yet you still keep on repeating one useless fact over and over again. So what if Russians and azerbaijanians call it circassian dress... why do Georgians not call it circassian dress than or why do Vainakhs dont call it so. Azers and Russians both came in caucasus in mid century when the outfit was already long invented. Kartl-kakheti chokha itself derived from adjarian chokha as you can see the pockets at the chestplaces. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.125.25 (talk) 23:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

General Caucasian Chokha doesn't derived from Kartli - Kakhetian nor any Georgian soul on earth!!... Azeris call it "Cherkezi Chokha" a fact!, Russians call it "Cherkesska" a fact!, Talavari is the name of Khevesureti dress not the general Caucasian dress a fact! (and I proved it to you from your own Georgian site!!), read what i posted earlier, in Georgian too. Chechens call it "Chokhib" from the same name, it is from Turkic which means "Fabric"!! a fact! Ingushs call it "Chokhi" the same thing Ossetians call it "Tsukha" same thing

Even I as none-Georgian know how Adjarian clothes look like more than you... so now you say it derived from Adjarians???? you change your status from day to day?? Adjarian clothes (also Laz) are more like "Pontic greeks" clothes! not the Caucasian clothes... Sawserok (talk) 16:58, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

New Section

I have separated a huge text in the main article in different section. Section titles have been added to the content which makes it easier for reader to navigate through article. If you guys have any other ideas, either about new sections or Titles, please respond. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.114.5.242 (talk) 20:13, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

I see that gorjijanidze has helped in preserving space. I would ask you if you could please could we align correct pictures to their corresponding sections? I will try to fix it myself, although any help would be deeply appreciated--69.114.5.242 (talk) 21:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC).

Sawserok, please do not make an unauthorized changes in the article, without discussing it in the talk first.

Your change was full of spelling, grammatical, and Semantic mistakes. If you violate the Wikipedia rule again, I will be forced to use POW Violations against you. There has been no peer reviewed article that has claimed that Chokha has originated from Kaftan dress, although it does sound like an interesting theory. It is widely held, however, that evolution of Caucasian national dress is full of borrowing and adaptations of the previous styles. It is widely held that the bandoliers across the chest of Chokha/Talavari were integrated into Caucasian Chokha from Pontian Dress (originally intended as pockets). It was first integrated into Georgian dress called Chakura (which is very similar to Chokha/Talavari, very short version of it). Influence of Asian (MONGOLIAN) and Middle-eastern cultures resulted in derivation of Chakura to make it little bit longer (reaching down till the knees). This type of Dress spread throughout western and eastern Georgia (usually known as Kartl-kakhuri chokha). In North Caucasus, the dress further derived, the coat reached all the way down till the toes (which is considered as North-Caucasian chokha). This type of chokha later became popular in some parts of Western Georgia as well (Abkhazia, Megrelia, Guria). Although in mountainous parts (such as Svaneti, Racha, Mtiuleti, Tusheti, Samachablo and Kakheti) the shorter version of the dress was preserved. This is why General Caucasian chokha is considered as longer Version of Kartl-Kakheti Chokha (and vice-verse). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.121.14.144 (talk) 17:22, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

There is a mismatch between original source and the text in the article as it relates to Kartl-kakheti chokha

One of the editor must have confused Kartl-kakhuri chokha with city dress. In the article it says that the rope was ussualy warn without the belts. This was true only in case of urban dresses. There is also picture posted in the wikipedia of group of men wearing kartl-Kakhuri chokha. Reader must have been confused by this mix up. There is also a reference text from Samoseli-Pirveli which describes the different types of Chokhas that have existed in Georgia. I have fixed the mistake and now the section is more convergent to the actual bibliographical source and the picture, represented in the article. --69.121.14.144 (talk) 03:32, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Circassian name

Can someone add the Circassian name of this dress? It's called Цые /tsiya/ in Adyghe language.--Adamʂa123 (talk) 01:23, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

What is Chokha, anyway?

This is the very first question on this talk page, and appears to have been lost in some ensuing content debates, but it still isn't answered in the article:

What kind of garment is "Chohka"?

There is nothing in the early parts of the article to answer this. Scrolling down, one can find a picture that shows coats or shirts. So is that what Chohka is? A kind of coat or shirt? Or maybe that's too specific and this is why the question hasn't been adequately answered. Maybe Chohka is a broad category of upper-body clothing? Any kind of shirt, coat, jacket, robe, etc. from the Caucasus? Please tell us! -- Perey (talk)

Now we can all argue who brought this caftan to Caucasus and who invented it in 9th century, be it Alans or Khazars or Iranian etc. BUT 19th century cherkesska with bullets on chest is a military attire used heavily in West Asia and Caucasus including Persia and the Ottomans. Its very silly trying to claim a military attire that was used by a lot of ethnicities as something that belongs uniquely to one country. Its very ethnocentric too. It seems like this page is trying to associate a medieval clothing with an army coat. If that's the case I just can pull out pictures of Turkmen male caftans and make claims that chokha/cherkeska actually derived from that. Normiehater (talk) 08:16, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

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Cherkesska vs. cherkeska

The double-s variant of the Russian and Ukrainian nomenclature is being used throughout Wikipedia. According to ngram, this variant wasn't used until 1913, and appears to have been reiterated in texts predominantly by means of the quoting of a single source: compare google scholar for cherkesska as opposed to cherkeska (the latter being found in multiple individual academic works). While I'm not particularly fussed, the single-s variant is an accurate transliteration, and probably makes more sense to use (although the double-s should remain as a redirect).

Do any other editors have strong views on the matter? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 22:59, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I'm guessing the double s is a variant designed to help English speakers get the stress and vowels right (not CHUR-kis-kuh or chur-KEEZ-kuh). I'd further guess that you'll find it more commonly in military literature where linguistic accuracy isn't the priority, and foreign terms are learned through oral transmission, in the field. I'd say the double-s is a borderline case of a naturalized loanword, but it's hard to judge, since it's so specialized. Ibadibam (talk) 01:55, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

The Chokha is a CAUCASIAN dress, not a Georgian

@47.16.139.28 Why undo my edit of the page? I removed unsourced claims and made this article more neutral since it was portraying the Chokha as a Georgian dress and not as Caucasian. The entire "type" section is unsourced and puts the 2 Georgian types of chokha on the same level as the chokha in general. Also the claim "The chokha has been in wide use among Georgians[3] from the 9th century until the 1920s" is untrue. The chokha did not exist that long and does not originate from Georgia either. So I don't understand why write it so centred about Georgians while the Chokha comes from the Northern Caucasus and is used everywhere in the Caucasus? Reiner Gavriel (talk) 19:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

To successfully make that case there will need to be sources that support it. The sources that have to date been integrated into this article indicate a strong association with Georgian history and culture. In the meantime, I suggest you put {{citation needed}} tags on the existing passages you think need to be sourced and {{disputed}} tags on the passages to which you object. Then we can revisit the disputed sections when new sources are available. Ibadibam (talk) 17:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

There is only one source in the section of the 3 types and that is a deleted article The chokha has strong association with the entire Caucasian history and culture, which I made more clear in my edit. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 20:10 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not you're correct is unfortunately immaterial. Wikipedia will be wrong until there are sources that support the truth. Meanwhile a dead link doesn't invalidate the source. Ibadibam (talk) 04:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, there is no source given at all. The article is heavily in favor of Georgians with no sources backing controversial statements such as >in the mountainous areas of Georgia<. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 20:05 27 August 2020 (UTC)

As a side topic, I wonder whether there will be some bias in sources because 1) in the Medieval period when the garment began to develop, Georgia was the dominant independent kingdom while the other peoples where vassals of Russia, Persia or Turkey, and 2) in the last couple of decades Georgia is once again the only fully independent country (with Azerbaijan) with a history of chokha. I'm not saying this gives Georgians the right to claim it exclusively but rather that it might skew coverage in Western media. Farsi or Russian-language sources might give a different overview of the whole region. Ibadibam (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

There will be bias in sources, no one in the Caucasus claims it to be of Georgian origin besides Georgians themselves. The rest usually agree on it originating from the Northern Caucasus, most likely among Circassians/Western Caucasus first, with the dress itself having partly Alanic roots. The historical dress of the Georgians prior to the Chokha was Byzantine and had major differences between it and the Chokha. The sources used in the article that Georgians wore the Chokha from the 9th century, are really bad. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 22:03 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Intangible cultural heritage of Georgia

Normiehater (talk · contribs) Why are you deleting the fact that Chokha is part of Intangible cultural heritage of Georgia? And why are you also deleting information about Georgian word Talavari being before Persian word Chokha came into use? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lemabeta (talk • contribs) 11:57, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

Because only Georgians claim that and no one else, the sources you provide are all georgian. Nobody, not even russians or persians or Caucasians call it Georgian, circassians have much more to do with this clothing than you. I'll keep the intangible cultural heritage of Georgia sentence if you're that desperate, but if you actually read anything I wrote to you in our talk section you'd understand by now that this outfit isn't unique to you. Normiehater (talk) 08:10, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Hello, I checked the link of intangible heritage of Georgia and its not included so whats the point of adding that sentence in this page? Cherkezy (talk) 18:52, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Unjustified changes

Since when is it normal to edit wikipedia without mentioning of a reliable source?

I request that admins and experienced staff look into this vandalism ზურა 6446 21:50, 13 May 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by ზურა6446 (talk • contribs)

Vandalism? how is making the page more equal vandalism now? Before, all sources were georgian, you even dared calling it yours. This page should be inclusive of ALL Caucasians and not just Georgians. Normiehater (talk) 08:12, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

Besides, why do you think someone should stay silent when you're claiming a military attire to be uniquely georgian?. If you don't want to upset people in the first place, you might as well make a page that is fair and doesn't have nationalist intentions. You're putting all Caucasians' ancestors who fought for freedom in vain. Normiehater (talk) 08:19, 22 May 2021 (UTC)

"Chokha is a part of intangible cultural heritage of Georgia"??Seriously??

It's a military coat that is worn by countless ethnicities. The gazyrs aren't Georgian, even the caftan has multiple origin theories, all of this said should suggest that it isn't Georgian and definitely not something worn *only* among Georgians. Other Caucasians also wear cherkeska at festivals and formal gatherings, we also wore this caftan throughout history and we also used the coat with bullets during the war. This page is very biased, I can't believe they added "Adjaran chokha" section, have you even seen the outfit Adjarans/Laz people wear? It looks nothing like the cherkeska people in the Caucasus used to wear. This page is purposely misleading. Assigning an ethnicity to a military clothing is so petty and spiteful. I have no words. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherkezy (talk) 08:03, 30 May 2021 (UTC)

I know that the Chokha is used by Kuban and Terek Cossacks who are more Ukrainian however I was wondering if it ever reached Ukraine, because the famous picture of Ukrainian dictator Hetman Pavlo Skoropadskyi(Павло Скоропадски) shows him clearly wearing a Chokha. I don’t know how he would have chosen to wear it after all, though from an ancient Ukrainian line he was born in Germany. However his father served in the Caucus perhaps the Chokha came from his father. I was wondering if there was information on Chokha in Ukraine, also if they may have become used in Ukraine after the Hetman since most Terek Cossacks where deported to Ukraine. 47.229.144.239 (talk) 05:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Chokha

Cherkezy Which source says that Chechens in 9th century used to wear Chokha? Georgian historical sources say Georgians did but there's no written source of other Cuacasians wearing it in 9th century.--Lemabeta (talk) 08:06, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

I feel like you have difficulty understanding English. I'm citing the vogue source : "What is its history?The piece originally hails from Persia and came to Georgia around the 9th century. The chokha is also worn elsewhere in the Caucasus region, like Chechnya." it clearly states that Georgians and other Caucasians like chechens also wore chokha. That vogue page is used as a source to that sentence. Didn't you click the link to read it? I added "inhabitants of Caucasus" along with Georgians but you keep erasing that sentence despite what the source I mentioned states. Cherkezy (talk) 09:30, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Another thing worth mentioning is that, only Georgians sources claim that its Georgian or worn only by Georgians in 9th century. The sources you and other georgian users provided as "reliable sources" are all in georgian language and are obviously biased, and seems like some of it is paid advertisement such as that vogue article. Its like Armenians and Azerbaijanis fighting over who created dolma or kebab when 20 other ethnicities also have that food. There are a lot of other sources written by other Caucasians in russian language in academia that have other theories about the origin (for example it being worn by Alans in 8-9th century which later got popularized by Khazars). You can call any source in russian as "unreliable" as much as you want but for me your georgian sources are just as unreliable. There are many academic researches by other people, third party travelers along with Russian sources and novels that show that other Caucasians also wore that outfit. Also, chokha/cherkeska, the military outfit with bullets we know today, is not Georgian. the gazyr isn't georgian it most likely derived from ottoman empire. So pretty much what you're arguing over is the caftan. Now we can all argue who brought this caftan to Caucasus and who invented it in 9th century, be it Alans or Khazars or Iranians or Kartvelians etc. but 19th century cherkesska with bullets on chest is a military attire used heavily in West Asia and Caucasus including Persia and the Ottomans. It seems like this page is trying to associate a medieval clothing with an army coat, if that's the case I just can pull out pictures of Turkmen male caftans and make claims that chokha/cherkeska actually derived from that Cherkezy (talk) 09:37, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

References

???

Sextus Caedicius I don't want to start arguing over something so minor but I really don't understand why you're so persistent on excluding Azerbaijanis and Armenians from other Caucasians. Armenians I can get somehow, they barely have any use of chokha but Azerbaijanis? There are a lot of Azerbaijanis from Georgia and Dagestan and even from modern day azeri territories where chokha was widely used. It is used in their traditional dances and festivals and celebrations as well. A lot of soviet sources and posters include chokha in azerbaijani traditional attire. Georgians also have Laz/Adjaran clothing and other types of outfits so chokha is also not the only clothing that represent them as a nation, there is khevsurian fashion as well. create a separate georgian fashion page. A good portion of Azerbaijani territory has a huge Caucasian influence which singles out Armenians so an extra sentence just to set them apart becomes unnecessary. They are all people of the Caucasus who used chokha.

Also I feel like you haven't read the azerbaijani traditional outfit page, the main outfit is the chokha. The other outfits are found in Georgian fashion as well. I dont understand your point on how having other types of outfits other than a fucking military coat makes you any less Caucasian.

Intangible cultural heritage

Giorgi Balakhadze so...no organization like UNESCO granted chokha as the intangible heritage status to Georgians? Georgians gave themselves that title? I've seen people share many links and all of them are in Georgian, there isn't a single outside organization to support this. -- Cherkezy 08:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Cherkezy Georgians wear and have been wearing Chokha, thus it is them who decide, is it their cultural heritage or not. We are not judges here, we just bring to the reader the fact, that Georgian Ministry of Culture, recognized Chokha wearing tradition as a part of Intangible cultural heritage of Georgia. It is not only UNESCO which does this, it is also possible at the national level. It is similar to architectural monuments, there are thousands of protected monuments in the countries, and UNESCO includes not all of them but some. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 12:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Giorgi Balakhadze that is a fair response Cherkezy (talk) 12:12, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Neglecting Georgian culture

Stop vandalism against Georgia’s culture! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.224.196 (talk) 16:36, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

user:Cherkezy stop vandalism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.127.224.196 (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

How is this neglecting georgian culture? It includes Georgians and I didn't even erase sections about georgian versions of chokha. if i wanted id add chechen or circassian or azeri versions of the coat but i figured youd erase that part because god forbid if anyone assumes this clothing doesnt only belong to Georgians. Chokha is not something only unique to Georgians. Every Caucasian ethnicity wore it. Nobody is neglecting georgian culture, its you Georgians who are neglecting everyone trying to make the outfit only belong to you! I try to include everyone in the article but only Georgians have come so far trying to erase anything to do with any other ethnicities that isn't georgian. What makes you think an 18th-19th century army coat is something only Georgians invented? Its a prototype of a clothing that EVERYONE in Caucasus and even in iran and central asia wore with only bullets added later on. its a very common clothing that men in west and central asia wore, the coat is not invented by a certain ethnicity. the addition of bullet is what makes it unique to CAUCASUS. its a symbol of freedom of oppression to EVERYONE in Caucasus. Just take a look at traditional wear of the region! It isn't something unique to Georgians. you people don't even read any of the comments I wrote in the talk page, you dont bother to talk to me you just come and change things abruptly. And you don't even hide your ethno nationalist intentions! you don't care that its wrong to claim an outfit worn by many other ethnicities. If i had to guess the clothing originated in Alan period worn by East Iranian groups that later became a Khazar court clothing, another theory is that the prototype of the clothing is of Golden Horde origin (You can check nogai clothings for reference).Khevsur chokha looks awfully similar to the khazar/alan clothings found in north caucasus' archeological sites. Cherkezy (talk) 17:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 12 March 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure) Turnagra (talk) 09:10, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

---

Chokha → Cherkeska – i tried changing it but it says the page title "cherkeska" already exists and it redircts to the same page title "chokha'. the word chokha is used only among one ethnic group and the clothing is mostly known as the "cherkeska" and its not appropriate to call a clothing that more than one ethnic group wears by a word that only one ethnic group uses Cherkezy (talk) 09:40, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

• Any evidence? 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 19:44, 11 March 2022 (UTC)
  • 🐶 EpicPupper you can click the chokha page and see that various ethnicities call it a different thing and there are sources and citations and everything in that page. and the word chokha is only used among Georgians. The page was most likely created way back by a Georgian without considering much for other ethnicities. Cherkeska is what everyone calls it to refer to the outfit. Cherkezy (talk) 09:58, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

References

• I did the move as asked but then it was reverted by Justlettersandnumbers, so now discussion is needed. GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 18:49, 12 March 2022 (UTC)
• Comment The rationale doesn’t refer to any Wikipedia guidelines. For example, what do most English-language WP:reliable sources call it, to satisfy WP:COMMONNAME? What do the cited English-language sources call it? I am concerned that the proposed title appears to be put forward because it is a non-native exonym: on the surface, this looks like WP:systemic bias. —Michael Z. 15:00, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

  Michael Unfortunately, there aren't that many sources in English language when it comes to Caucasus. Its a region that isn't studied in western spheres so sources are limited. In English, most sources that study the clothing that I have encountered that are academic journals usually refer to it as 'cherkeska' while other articles from websites that are promoting a traditional clothing's of a particular ethnicity will refer to the clothing in their own native language (Circassians call it 'tsey', Azeris and Armenians call it 'chukha', Georgians call it 'chokha' etc). I grew up in that region and because most Caucasian groups don't have a country of their own, and are mostly Russian speakers and because there are far too many Caucasian ethnic groups with their own unique words and pronunciations to call the outfit we usually end up calling it as 'Cherkeska'. This is why I'm suggesting for a name change, instead of leaving it at that. What other ethnicities call it can easily be discussed and explained thoroughly in an etymology section. Or alternatively there can be a separate page that discusses Georgian traditional clothing.

  Well, if that is an accurate picture of sources on the subject, then the move can be considered reasonable. It’s always easier to agree if we see some good English-language secondary sources supporting the case, like encyclopedias or books on a more general subject. I’m changing my vote to neutral. —Michael Z. 14:01, 20 March 2022 (UTC)

I also wanted to add, there is a popular dance that is called Lezginka which is also a non-native exonym but it remained to be called that way in this region due to reason I stated previously. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cherkezy (talk • contribs) 16:06, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Greetings! Chokha is a common name for this garment and as a term also much older than "cherkeska". Chokha is a Caucasian garment that has been utilized and worn by the Caucasians for centuries; way before the Russian imperial annexation of Georgian monarchies and then later of entire Caucasus; and way before Russians coined the name cherkeska. Also, no Caucasian ethnicity refers to the garment as "cherkeska". Regards, An emperor /// Ave 02:41, 21 March 2022 (UTC)

How do you continue saying it's a common name and that no one calls it cherkeska when I just showed sources that says otherwise? Do people just write things here without considering what I wrote?. Fruitless conversation. Cherkezy (talk) 07:52, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose - NGRAMS - Cherkeska,Chokha clearly demonstrates the current title reflects WP:COMMONNAME Mike Cline (talk) 12:20, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

  When you google chokha the first thing that comes up is an Indian dish and not the clothing, that could be why. Cherkezy (talk) 12:38, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gay pictures being added to the article

Someone has been including gay pictures in the article. There was one where two Tushetian men were holding hands in a Chokha which I removed. Please do not add such pictures to this article. MojeTata2329 (talk) 09:00, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Gay? What evidence do you have for File:Groom wearing a chokha on a Tushetian wedding.jpg being a gay couple? Nothing mentioned about "gay" in the image details. No other images suggesting such. 09:28, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Armenia and Azerbaijan

"Chokha" National clothing of the peoples of the North Caucasus and Georgia. Armenians and Azerbaijanis have other clothes similar to Persian clothes 195.19.124.174 (talk) 12:44, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Eastern Armenians

Eastern Armenians did not adopt it the way that Cossacks did. Please do not make baseless edits if you have never read a book about Armenian culture or ethnography, the Chukha was the only traditional clothing that was worn by Armenians living in the territory of the Russian empire. Please see Yervand Lalayan's study "Gandzak" Wrobeli (talk) 21:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

In the Russian empire it was only worn during the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, it was adopted by the Soviet Armenians under the influence of Cossacks and tsarist fashion. No study says it is Armenian, you are wrong between Persian caftan with open sleeves and the chokha from the North Caucasus and which appeared only in Georgia in the middle of the 19th century by Cirassian walkers, prove me now with a study that Armenians wear this before the Cossacks. You won't find anything Caucaseveritable (talk) 07:41, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you have never read anything on Armenian ethnography, I think you are just going based on feelings or some thoughts you made up in your mind with no justification behind them. Please click on citations provided below to see the sources of the stuff I will mention.

First of all, you are somewhat correct in that a different style of Chokha was widespread in Armenia prior to the middle of the 19th century, but this was also worn as the main form of dress in Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Dagestan and it was still called a Chokha. This is the chokha with the cut sleeves. I don't know why you removed the picture "Armenian warrior from Karabakh", but kept "Young Tatar Bek". It is the same style of Chokha. You can see it was worn all over the Eastern Transcaucasus, from Kakheti to Karabakh. [1][2][3]. Already starting from the 1840s, we see drawings of people from Karabakh wearing the Chokha with gazyrs [4][5], (Before you say it, male Azerbaijanis and Armenians had the exact same dress wherever they lived, so these image applies to Armenians just as well as Mountainous Karabakh was majority Armenian) and by the 1890s it had replaced the old style altogether, at least in the villages. [6].

I have many studies I can provide you, please ask if you would like more we can be here all day :D. Here is an excerpt from Ervand Lalayans "Gandzak", [7], pg 51. This part of the study goes into the lives of the Armenian Meliks of Gyulistan, Karabakh prior to the Melikdoms abolishment in 1822. It describes in great detail this old style of Chokha, worn in prior to the last decades of the 19th century.

"Dress: The dress of the Meliks did not differ from that of the regular people, only it was woven from more fashionable and expensive clothes ..." Pants, undershirt are listed and then "Arkhalukh - Was worn on top of the doshlugh. It was woven from silk thread, for younger people it was red and for elders purple. The skirt was short, there was a triangular opening showing the chest and it was buttoned up via three buttons located near the navel. Underneath the triangular opening, the doshlugh covered the chest. More recently, the triangular slit was no longer woven and as a result the doshlugh was no longer used. On the underside of the Arkhalukh, on the sleeves, a bit inside so that it wouldn't appear, two finger-with "qyopas" (?) were sewn.

On top of the Arkhalukh, they wore a belt.

CHUKHA: It was woven from woolen cloth, tapered at the waist and went down to the knees. The chest had a triangular opening, and three buttons were located near the waist to close it. The sleeves were short.

... Headwear: On their heads they wore black long Papapkhs

... Weapons: On their left side they wore a curved sword, on their front a dagger, from their left shoulder they wore a powder flask ... From their right shoulder they wore a bandolier, in which they kept cartridges (Gazyrs)."

The study also describes the dress of the people in 1900, when the study was published. First describes pants and shirt, then says

"They sew the Arkhalukh out of black or blue cloth. Over the Arkhalukh they were a Chukha, which tapers towards the waist and goes below the knees. They sew it from black shawl cloth. On their feet, they wear shoes or Trekh moccasins, on their heads they were a Papakh, woven from sheep skin."

For good measure, I will provide another study describing the dress of the Armenians and Azerbaijanis in the Kazakh district (Modern day Tavush, Armenia). This one was written in 1836.

"The clothing of the Kazak inhabitants is similar to that of the Georgians, and partly resembles that of the Persians. It consist of: Chokha or outer clothing, made of cloth, Arkhalukh, from shishtsa or burmeta, wide, mostly red-colored trousers - made of silk material or red calico, a round hat made of black or yellowish sheepskin, and half-boots with pointed toes with curled toes; finally, a Kindjal dagger on the belt is a necessary accessory for everyone."[8]

So yeah Chokhas have been worn consistently by Armenians during the entire 19th century, please read a book or provide a source to your claims before making such claims again. You seem to be going off on nothing, I provided many sources now its time for you to provide a single source to support what you are saying. Wrobeli (talk) 15:07, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you again to prove that you do not know the difference between Persian kaftan that was worn by the entire Persian empire and the chokha (No Russian study says that Armenians wear this) of its real name North Caucasian tcherkeska which has no connection with this dress simply being a type of kaftan. So please add the Persians and Kurds who wore exactly this caftan()

https://www.meisterdrucke.lu/fine-art-prints/Grigori-Grigorevich-Gagarin/273909/Escarmouche-entre-Perses-et-Kurdes-en-Arm%C3%A9nie%252C-planche-13-d'un-livre-sur-le-Caucase%252C-grav%C3%A9e-par-Adolphe-Jean-Baptiste-Bayot%252C-publi%C3%A9e-par-Alfred-Leon-Lemercier%252C-Paris%252C-1847.html

Please note that the South Georgian and Azerbaijani Armenians were not different from the inhabitants of the Persian Empire in terms of outfit. As you sent, the Persian caftan differs from the Caucasian caftan by its falling sleeves. You dress like Persians

https://iranicaonline.org/articles/clothing-ii

There is no chokha style there are types of caftan in the world whether in Europe Asia North Africa Middle East and you wear a Persian kaftan that has nothing to do with the Caucasian kaftan which is identical to the population of Central Asia. Please see the outfits.

perses:https://iranicaonline.org/articles/clothing-xxvii

And the man wearing the Persian kaftan in Karabakh does not wear the tcherkeska, you do not know how to make the difference, either we add the kalmyks who wore the tcherskeska and add in addition the Kurds, Persians and other inhabitants of the Persian empire like no one dressing in chokha.

kalmyks have also cherkeska

https://vokm134.ru/muzej-onlajn/kostjumy-kalmykov.html

and are maybe the creator of this,you just don’t know to do the diff between Persian caftan and Caucasian caftan Which was expanded by the Cossacks for all Russian troops and nobles in the middle of the 19th century, simply the Armenians adopted this at the end of the 19th century until the beginning of the 20th century as I specified and that you refuted by saying that it is a style that has become fashionable. Persian and Kurdish clothing identical to those of Transcaucasia except for the northern Georgians

https://portnovskie-kolodki.com.ua/ru/odezhda-drevnej-persii.html

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/traditional-persian-man-costume.html?sortBy=relevant

The Kurds also wore the Persian caftan worn by the Transcaucasians

http://nacekomie.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23182

https://aldusku.livejournal.com/27252.html

The Armenians in the Persian Empire:

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Habit_of_an_Armenian_native_of_Persia_in_1700._Armenian_natif_de_Perse_(NYPL_b14140320-1638287).jpg

Inhabitant of the Persian empire, no difference between the photos you sent and the Persian outfits

https://www.alamy.com/fashion-historical-clothes-in-persia-illustration-iran-image226953993.html

The photo of the Armenian from Karabakh has nothing to do on this page it is a kaftan identical to that of the Persians with a cartridge bag simply in the Armenian concept we call the caftans chokha by Persian influence of the tussie while the Russians differentiates beautiful and well the transcaucasian habit from the Caucasian.

So please add the Kurds, the Persians as wearing the chokha then, the Kalmyks wear the cherkeska which is actually the chepken worn by the northern Georgians and the northern Caucasians with an addition of the gazyr knowing that the cherkeska was born at the end of the 18th century...

more link https://academic.oup.com/book/55800/chapter/434341401 Caucaseveritable (talk) 18:56, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I can barely understand what you are trying to prove to be honest, your English is not so good, so I will try to respond as best I can.

This is not a "Persian kaftan". The whole Chokha complex is derived from Persian and Turkic influence, that much is clear as almost every piece in the outfit has a Persian/Turkic name in Armenian and Georgian. But this is very different from the Kaftans worn in Persia at this time, we have drawings of what that looked like. [9]. It was worn everywhere in the East Caucasus from Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan to Dagestan.[10], it was even adopted as the uniform of the Lezgin battalion of the Imperial Russian convoy later on. This style of dress was not worn in Persia, it was only worn in the Caucasus.

No Russian study says Armenians wore it? I literally sent one to you, want me to post it again?

"The clothing of the Kazak inhabitants is similar to that of the Georgians, and partly resembles that of the Persians. It consist of: Chokha or outer clothing, made of cloth, Arkhalukh, from shishtsa or burmeta, wide, mostly red-colored trousers - made of silk material or red calico, a round hat made of black or yellowish sheepskin, and half-boots with pointed toes with curled toes; finally, a Kindjal dagger on the belt is a necessary accessory for everyone."[8]

That picture you sent of the "Kurds and Persians" is literally depicting a battle scene in Yerevan between Kurds and Azerbaijanis in front of an Armenian church. At the time, Yerevan was under Iranian suzerainty but inhabited mostly by Azerbaijanis who at the time did not really have a national identity, as a result they were often referred to as "Persians" by period ethnographers. So that picture you sent is not depicting Persians but Azerbaijanis, clothing among Persians was clearly different from this.

So your argument is everyone in Transcaucasia except in Northern Georgia wore this "Persian Kaftan" (The Persian kaftan which was literally called a Chokha, all the same names are used for Chokha in Georgia). Except for Khevsureti, people in North East Georgia dressed the same as Kakhetians.

Please cut the crap, the Kalmyk garment and other Kaftans are clearly different from this. This type of Chokha is clearly defined in ethnographic literature as being endemic to the Caucasus.

Those Kurds who wore that are the ones who moved to the Caucasus, Kurds in Turkey did not. That coat the Kurd is wearing clearly has Gazyrs, so I don't know how it can be a "Persian Kaftan".

Honestly no point in having this conversation, I already gave you actual high quality ethnographic studies and you just spammed with links that make 0 sense. I already sent you a picture of a Bek from Karabakh wearing typical Chokha in the 1860s, so thats that.

What the fuck does Parthian Influence on the ancient Armenian language have to do with Chokhas? Its like you just googled "Persian influence in Armenia" and posted the first link. You have never researched this in your entire life. Wrobeli (talk) 20:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Congratulations once again you have just closed your eyes to the fact that it is a Persian caftan, moreover even the photo sent of the Persian caftan is identical to the population of Transcaucasia once again here are the Persian clothes

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-first-meeting-of-count-ivan-paskevich-with-abbas-mirza-1828-artist-135253937.html?imageid=91CC51FA-8EC9-4715-90DF-0FD15B2BC27C&p=854803&pn=1&searchId=1d79d3bda2f4844ef31bfb797fa633fd&searchtype=0

and for the painting of Prince Gagarin in present-day Armenia which was before Persia, I proved to you that the Kurds and Persians wore the same clothes as the Transcaucasia.

https://www.armmuseum.ru/news-blog/gagarin

you are talking nonsense the khevsurs were identical to the chechens and had no connection with the kaxetians, here is a georgian study on the outfits worn by the georgians

https://tdi.ge/ge/page/samosisa-da-chacmis-mravalperovneba-sakartveloshi

endemic to the Caucasus ?did you know that before 1840 before the annexation of the Armenian oblast in Transcaucasia, Armenia was never considered Caucasian. From that time Russia regionalized the North Caucasian culture into one region, the Kalmyks are part of it, they wore exactly the same dress as the North Caucasians

https://vokm134.ru/muzej-onlajn/kostjumy-kalmykov.html

and you can see this from Armenian

https://ru.pinterest.com/pin/astrakhan-province--217580225733594970/

It was Russia that created a regional culture in the Caucasus by creating the Caucasus districts. You should know this and yet the biggest problem is to say "Eastern Armenian" we all know that a large part of Eastern Armenians migrated to Armenian from the Ottoman Empire unlike the minority in southern Georgia and the Khanates

https://www.armmuseum.ru/history-9

It is better to call them the Armenians of the Russian Empire. The Armenians simply, like the Kurds, wore the Caucasian cloak through cultural influence and indoctrination.

il n’y a pas de culture endémique au Caucase si ce n’est la régionalisation de la Russie et pour finir le caftan perses était portait par tout les habitants de l’empire perse voir que ceux du nord, le sud du daghestan était sous empire perse Caucaseveritable (talk) 21:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh my god, look at that picture you sent it is clearly not the same thing. I already proved to you, it is literally a form of a CHOKHA thats what it is called in the literature, thats what the people who wore it called it. Persians did not wear this, the clothing worn by Abbas Mirza is different from this. It is a persianite outfit, after all all the parts have either Turkic or Persian etymology in both Armenian and Georgian, but it is clearly established as being a form of a Chokha in the literature and not as a Persian "Kaftan".

I already told you, those people wearing it in that picture are not Persians but Azerbaijanis. The picture was made to depict the Yerevan Khanate, which despite being under Iranian suzerainty had very few Persians living there. The population was made of of mostly Azerbaijanis, then Kurds and Armenians. At the time the Kurds did not wear the same clothing, you can scroll further down in your link to "Jigitovka of Tatars and Kurds in front of Sardarabad fortress" to see what Kurds were wearing at that time.

Yup thats literally what I said, except for Khevsurs the inhabitants of northern Georgia dressed the same as Kakhetians. We have paintings of what they looked like in the early 19th century, just prior to the establishment of Russian rule in the Caucasus, take a look for yourself at this painting of a Tushetian.[11] The same artist also drew portraits of the inhabitants of Shamshadin, Pambak, and Kazak which are mostly located in todays Northern Armenia and partly in Azerbaijan.[12][13][14]. The coats that these people from Armenia (Could be either ethnic Armenians or Azerbaijanis) wore is practically the same as that of the Tushetian, so what is your point about "Northern Georgia" it makes no sense.

[15] I am sorry but this kalmyk coat looks nothing like a Caucasian one. How did Russia "Regionalize Caucasian cultures into one" when already in the first decade of the 19th century people from Northern Armenia wore the same coats as Tushetians? You are forgetting that throughout the 18th century, the entire Southern Caucasus was constantly in contact. Erekle II had vassalized the Khanates and fought with them many times, massive migrations took place from Armenia to Georgia, the Georgian kings sent aid to the Armenian Meliks in Syunik and Artsakh rebelling against the Ottomans, etc etc. At that time the local Armenians, Georgians, and Azerbaijanis who lived under nominal Iranian Suzerainty were in constant contact with eachother, hence the cultural similarities. It had nothing to do with Russians or Russian influence.

That guy from Ashtrakhan with the long hat is literally the Persian. Read the description, there is also a Persian along with Armenian and others.

The men of the Ottoman Armenians who migrated to Eastern Armenia almost immediately adopted the Caucasian costume. You can see it in your own link, scroll down to the drawing "Armenian types and costumes". These are Armenians from Akhaltsikhe, you can tell based on the womens dresses. Armenians migrated to Akhaltsikhe and some other cities from Karin, the men changed their costumes but the women kept the old dress of Karin. Read more about it here. The provinces of Lori, Tavush, Artsakh and Syunik always had an Armenian majority though, and they are the main ones I referenced through pictures etc.

I already gave you a slew of reputable sources showing Armenians were wearing Chokhas even prior to the conquest of the Russian empire. The situation was not like that of the Kurds. Gagarin drew several portraits of Kurds in the Caucasus, none of them are wearing a Chokha [16][17][18][19] (Source is Here). These were drawn in the 1840s, these Caucasian Kurds only adopted the Chokha in later decades. Meanwhile Gagarin drew Armenians already wearing the Chokha [20], and as I already posted earlier even paintings from the first decade of the 19th century show Armenians wearing it. Wrobeli (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

In Ukraine proper

There is an iconic photo of the Ukrainian Hetman Pavlo Skoropadskyi wearing a Chokha, his father served in the Caucasus but he was born in Germany (with Ukrainian ancestors), however apparently some of his guards wore them. There is also a Ukrainian Wikipedia page dedicated to Chokha in Ukraine however it does not say much more than that it was clothing worn by some Cossacks. Should a section in mention of Chokha in Ukraine be added? Or a photo of Pavlo Skoropadskyi 47.229.144.239 (talk) 06:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)