Talk:Ivan Yakovych Chornousov
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Chornousov Ivan Yakovych
editPlease don't delete this article. The page need not to be deleted because this person is good example of contradictory character of Civil War for Democracy on the territories of modern Ukraine in 1917-23 years. Today Ukraine needs to review it's history and it's conceptions and reviewing it. But during this process such personalities are making heroes of struggle for democracy despite their antidemocratic (democracy in the form of communism and soviet goverment), anti-Ukrianian and anti-semitic character. Readers of English-language Wikipedia and people of modern global society must know and appreciate by themselves the ambiguous charachter of Civil War for Democracy and destruction of Russian Empire in 1917-23 years. Poorly written sources in English - yes, there is such problem. But there is also sources in Ukrainian - sooner or later they will be also in English and if needed the article can be always rewritten.
Serge-kazak (talk) 08:09, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- I see that you have added sources. What is concerning now is that the first reference (the only one that has an inline citation) does not seem to back up the statements made (based on a translation into english), considering the fact that neither the original ukranian nor the english translation seems to even mention the subject of the article. Could you quote the part of the source that backs up the statements made in the article? Thanks, Gold Standard 17:39, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Please translate this part of article in English (the memories of village citizen written by his grandson, about the deeds of commander Ivan in the village Kapustyntsi:
"Скажу абсолютно несподівану річ: мій дід, син сільського фельдшера у селі на Київщині, в дитинстві бачив Чорновуса. Надибавши на це прізвище, я відразу згадав його скупі оповідки! Чорновус заходив і в село Капустинці Яготинського району Київщини (тоді, здається, Пирятинського повіту Полтавщини). Гостював і в хаті батьків діда (мого прадіда, фельдшера Федора Пименовича, і досі пам'ятають дуже старі люди в Капустинцях та навколишніх селах).
Вимоги були простими й безідейними: обсушитись, їжа, самогон... Серед ночі стукав до селян і, власне кажучи, мало хто зважався не обслужити «дорогого гостя». Жаль, що діда вже немає дванадцять років на світі, я б розпитав у нього детальніше у «світлі» теми!.. Запам'ятав тільки одну історію. Як убили молоду красиву єврейку на краю села («на хуторі»), причому бандити ще й хвалилися «вмінням», як треба вбити, щоб лишилася посмішка на обличчі: це коли людина веселиться і не знає, що чекає її зараз. Її зарізали зі спини, і так «з посмішкою» вона і захолола.
Щось про національну ідею чорновусівців, на жаль, я не виніс із оповідей діда-очевидця." [1]
Also you can get a lot of examples to confirm the statements made, from this book - Залишенець._Чорний_ворон, which tries to make the national hero from this commander. Pitily there is no English translation and you can read it in e-text form only in Ukrainian - http://www.e-reading-lib.org/book.php?book=1000737. :((. Мaybe in the future it will be also in English. Serge-kazak (talk) 21:07, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, but how do you know it is Чорноусов being described? The article only mentions "Чорновуса". Also, this statement: "who supported or take active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23" is not justified by the source. Gold Standard 21:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Author of the article critizes the above-mentioned book for heroization of commander Ivan. It is the same person. Few words about surname: original surname in Ukrainian language is Чорноус ("Black Mustache") - old Ukrainian cossack surname. But in XIX-XX cc. in official documents such surnames were often changed (russified) by adding the ending -ов. So Чорноус (Черноус) became Чорноусов (Черноусов) and is mentioned under such way in official documents. But his original, village surname is Чорноус, people from our country know this problem with surnames so they can use them interchangeably - Чорноус vs. Чорноусов, like i used in this example. Now about this statement: "who supported or take active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23". According to book above mentioned it was the view of commander Ivan by which he explained his cruel deeds - he and his companions in arms fought against bolshevik (communist, russian) occupation of Ukraine. Article denies this view - it says that commander Ivan was ordinary bandit, nothing more. So this is two main points of view about this person and his biography and they need to be in some or other way represented in the article. Maybe you will propose how to rewrite it more clear. Please look - maybe the last variant is better. Serge-kazak (talk) 21:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. That makes it more clear. Perhaps we could change "who supported or take active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23" to "who he believed supported or took active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23". Then we could have another statement, "Others consider him to simply be a bandit and murderer" Let me know what you think. Gold Standard 21:38, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, i fully agree. Pitily in Ukrainian version of Wikipedia i could not write freely in such a way - there are a lot of young pro-nationalistic admins and users there, who want "to demonize" such periods of our history as the period when lands and society of Ukraine was part of Golden Horde, of Russian empire or of Soviet Union and to make heroes from everybody who fought against that orders of things. Chernousov is one of this "choosen" persons for them - so such editings which mention about victims are almost always banned. Such position is inappropriate for me so i decided to try to write in English, maybe here is more democratic atmosphere. Serge-kazak (talk) 21:56, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- I have made the changes. Also, please note that Wikipedia operates on consensus, not plain democracy. If there are people on the Ukrainian Wikipedia violating this then you should report them to the administrators. If the administrators are complicit then you might try reporting them to an admin on the English Wikipedia. You might try the help desk for that. Gold Standard 22:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- It cannot be done. I was banned there :(. It is not so easy to get in consesus with our people in some situations (like this) - they don't want and aren't ready to hear real history of our country and region :(. They like tales about such "heroes" as commander Chernousov and translate them to Wikipedia. :( When you say something good and unusual to them about history of Horde, Soviet Union, cossacks, communists and so on - you almost always is banned if you cannot give citations of "authority" sources - but "authority" sources for them is that which don't deny their points of view. Bad situation. When it will change - i think i will come back to Ukrainian and Russian language Wikipedias. Thank you for your attention and help - it will be good if you will also agree to help me with article editing in the future :) Serge-kazak (talk) 22:22, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- I still recommend that you post about the situation at the help desk. Also, if you are interested in getting help with editing in the future, I recommend you check out the adoption program. Gold Standard 22:38, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you, i will think about this proposition. But about adoption program - main problem i think can be with English language not with Wikipedia itself. In Ukrainian and Russian language Wikipedias i have experience of active editing more than 3 years so Wikipedia itself is familiar to me :). Serge-kazak (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Generally other Wikipedians will edit any English grammar errors they come across, so that shouldn't be a problem as your English seems fine. Gold Standard 23:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you, i will think about this proposition. But about adoption program - main problem i think can be with English language not with Wikipedia itself. In Ukrainian and Russian language Wikipedias i have experience of active editing more than 3 years so Wikipedia itself is familiar to me :). Serge-kazak (talk) 22:47, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- I still recommend that you post about the situation at the help desk. Also, if you are interested in getting help with editing in the future, I recommend you check out the adoption program. Gold Standard 22:38, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- It cannot be done. I was banned there :(. It is not so easy to get in consesus with our people in some situations (like this) - they don't want and aren't ready to hear real history of our country and region :(. They like tales about such "heroes" as commander Chernousov and translate them to Wikipedia. :( When you say something good and unusual to them about history of Horde, Soviet Union, cossacks, communists and so on - you almost always is banned if you cannot give citations of "authority" sources - but "authority" sources for them is that which don't deny their points of view. Bad situation. When it will change - i think i will come back to Ukrainian and Russian language Wikipedias. Thank you for your attention and help - it will be good if you will also agree to help me with article editing in the future :) Serge-kazak (talk) 22:22, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- I have made the changes. Also, please note that Wikipedia operates on consensus, not plain democracy. If there are people on the Ukrainian Wikipedia violating this then you should report them to the administrators. If the administrators are complicit then you might try reporting them to an admin on the English Wikipedia. You might try the help desk for that. Gold Standard 22:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, i fully agree. Pitily in Ukrainian version of Wikipedia i could not write freely in such a way - there are a lot of young pro-nationalistic admins and users there, who want "to demonize" such periods of our history as the period when lands and society of Ukraine was part of Golden Horde, of Russian empire or of Soviet Union and to make heroes from everybody who fought against that orders of things. Chernousov is one of this "choosen" persons for them - so such editings which mention about victims are almost always banned. Such position is inappropriate for me so i decided to try to write in English, maybe here is more democratic atmosphere. Serge-kazak (talk) 21:56, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. That makes it more clear. Perhaps we could change "who supported or take active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23" to "who he believed supported or took active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23". Then we could have another statement, "Others consider him to simply be a bandit and murderer" Let me know what you think. Gold Standard 21:38, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Author of the article critizes the above-mentioned book for heroization of commander Ivan. It is the same person. Few words about surname: original surname in Ukrainian language is Чорноус ("Black Mustache") - old Ukrainian cossack surname. But in XIX-XX cc. in official documents such surnames were often changed (russified) by adding the ending -ов. So Чорноус (Черноус) became Чорноусов (Черноусов) and is mentioned under such way in official documents. But his original, village surname is Чорноус, people from our country know this problem with surnames so they can use them interchangeably - Чорноус vs. Чорноусов, like i used in this example. Now about this statement: "who supported or take active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23". According to book above mentioned it was the view of commander Ivan by which he explained his cruel deeds - he and his companions in arms fought against bolshevik (communist, russian) occupation of Ukraine. Article denies this view - it says that commander Ivan was ordinary bandit, nothing more. So this is two main points of view about this person and his biography and they need to be in some or other way represented in the article. Maybe you will propose how to rewrite it more clear. Please look - maybe the last variant is better. Serge-kazak (talk) 21:34, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- Ok, but how do you know it is Чорноусов being described? The article only mentions "Чорновуса". Also, this statement: "who supported or take active part in establisment of power of soviet goverment on the territories of Ukrainian Republic in 1917-23" is not justified by the source. Gold Standard 21:12, 7 April 2013 (UTC)