Talk:Chris Jones (mountain climber)

How to disambiguate this title?

Obviously, Chris Jones is a common name. I could write Christopher A.G. Jones or Chris A.G. Jones as those are both names that he used writing articles. Can someone help? Mellowish126 (talk) 19:56, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

Update for reviewers

I added several more references that I think qualify as secondary and removed any uncited or unreliably cited language. Mellowish126

The key missing item here is proper WP:SIGCOV on him as a standalone figure to give notability (Wikipedia needs at least one, if now two or WP:THREE - i.e. articles solely on him in the major climbing media (per WP:NCLIMBER), or even the wider media.

What we currently have are recordings of his climbs and books, or being namechecked in broader articles about his era, but little that singles out him as an important figure. He is definitely not one of "England's greatest climbers", but that does not mean he is not notable for Wikipedia, we just need to find quality independent sources talking about him as a standalone notable figure. Hope that is useful. Aszx5000 (talk)

Draft Chris Jones

Hi Aszx5000 - I saw your comments on my draft for Chris Jones. I did read the WP:NCLIMBER sources and I still think Chris qualifies and I think many of the sources I pulled also have justification.

"Articles about contemporary climbers should include reliable sources from the main climbing media (older/historical climbers may not always be referenced in the climbing media) per Category:Climbing magazines. Climbing WP:BLPs, whose main notability is based on climbing, but who have no record in these publications, are unlikely to be notable.

Quality sources from the climbing media (with well-regarded editorial control), who maintain online-accessible archives"

Given the era that Jones was active as a climber, I think I did a relatively good job of finding the contributions regarding his climbs in the AAJ and some other online references to the era. Plus, the AAJ had pretty strict limitations on who was permitted as a member and which climbs were merited for inclusion in the 60's and 70's. Jones was admired by his peers in that time period.

I know that he was probably discussed in other climbing magazines that have since fallen apart (well before the internet). There are plenty of articles created about other climbers in that era who have far less documentation and may not have done as many groundbreaking alpine climbs.

Anyway, I don't mind the edits you contributed - I think it tightened up the article and arguably I had tried to pull more justifications for notability with unnecessary quotations. Also, I'm sorry if your talk page isn't the appropriate location for me to argue my case. I'm still learning the ins and outs of Wikipedia article creation. Feel free to delete this as needed or shift it to my talk page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mellowish126 (talk • contribs) 20:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Hi Mellowish126. I think you have the bones of a well constructed article there. I do think the sources you have are quality climbing sources (per WP:NCLIMBER) like the AAJ, the key is to have some evidence of these sources writing about him as a subject (what we call WP:SIGCOV). A lot of climber articles get deleted every year that are just lists of climbs in climbing media, but nothing on the person per se as a notable figure.

For example, the Sports Illustrated article on him is getting to SIGCOV and SI is a quality source. I agree that it is very hard for pre-1990s climbers as many magazines folded/hard to get their archives (unlike modern climbers who have lots of magazine copy). Having major first ascents with George Lowe and Yvon Chouinard also indicates that he is notable as a climber. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:38, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

I would also make more of the review of Climbing in North America per here, as I think this was an important book and he could also come under WP:NAUTHOR (i.e. the book gets quoted here and here). Aszx5000 (talk) 15:45, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks - I did see that review and was wondering if it was appropriate to pull from. I will add it in. My main point in writing Jones's and George Lowe's articles is to keep that part of climbing history alive and documented. They did a lot of ground-breaking climbs in their time period and they weren't as well-documented as climbs are today. I intend to add articles on Lito Tejada-Flores, Nick Escourt, and a few others from that time if I can find enough documentation. Mellowish126 (talk) 02:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good - Nick Estcourt is there but it is a tiny article. Sometimes I have had to defend older climber articles at WP:AfD knowing that they were notable but articles I would have read in climbing magazines on them (SIGCOV) are no longer available, however, when I also have NAUTHOR, it is very useful. I have tried to delete Susan Ershler as she is not notable as a climber, but her books have saved her; book reviews from reasonable sources are NAUTHOR. Good luck. Aszx5000 (talk) 09:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

@Aszx5000 Hey - you might not remember me but I've been working on this article on Chris Jones. It's been rejected. I'm not sure what else I can do to argue for his inclusion in wikipedia. Do you have any advice or is this a lost cause?

The editor who rejected it looks like they're pretty focused on American football and may not understand the AAJ as the primary source for information about climbs but I don't know if that matters at all. Mellowish126 (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

I would not give up yet - I do think this is a borderline case but unlike less worthy climbing BLPs, he was a real climber, climbing/partnering with some of the best climbers of his era; and his book is probably notable. I will come back to it in the next weekm and see if I can get enough to push it over the line! Aszx5000 (talk) 23:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Add citation of "WITH THE SOVIETS Author: Christopher A.G. Jones. Climb Year: 1976. Publication Year: 1977." Discuss the Soviet exchange

https://www.mountaineers.org/about/history/the-mountaineer-annuals/indexes-annuals-maps/the-mountaineer-1976 https://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/12197704500

Update for reviewers

This is no longer a biography of a living person. Chris Jones died this week (September 2024). His death was significant enough to be covered by Gripped Magazine. Please accept this article so that his accomplishments and contributions to climbing history do not go unrecognized.

Some good quality obituaries already appearing now Sports Illustrated, Gripped Magazine. That is notable enough for me now. great job. Aszx5000 (talk) 20:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, @Aszx5000. Sad to know he's gone but I'm glad I worked on this. I think it means a lot to his family and to his former climbing partners. Now I need to focus on finishing the other draft articles that I wanted to work on. Mellowish126 (talk) 23:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)