Talk:Christchurch mosque shootings/Archive 4

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White supremacy

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Consensus in favor of inclusion. One's own interpretations does not trump a plethora of RSs and unless you can bring reliable sources supporting the alternate stance; you are invited to disengage. ∯WBG^converse 13:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

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The article contains the following comment:

Please do not remove the "white supremacist" descriptor of the terrorist attack — it is widely acknowledged the attacks were the actions of a white supremacist. If you have any evidence of the contrary, please present it on the discussion page

It is clear from the manifesto that neither the motive nor ideology of the attacker is consistent with white supremacy as described by Wikipedia:

White supremacy or white supremacism is the racist belief that white people are superior to people of other races and therefore should be dominant over them.

Given the inexactitude of language use by the media, however, this is difficult to establish with secondary sources. See WP:NOTTRUTH.

Nevertheless, I thought there should be a place to discuss this matter, as it is such a clear conflict between primary and secondary sources. --π! 23:45, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

the manifesto isn't a reliable source on anything.©Geni (talk) 00:23, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Oppose - Feel it should not be placed in the lead. I am happy with removing "white supremacist and Islamophobic" (but keeping "terrorist attacks"), and placing them in the third lead paragraph where the white supremacist motive seems to be expanded on.Mrsmiis (talk) 00:45, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

- Can I assume you Support Change? 108.5.247.99 (talk) 22:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Per his manifesto he is not a white supremacist. He is a white nationalist. Editors of Wikipedia should be smarter than this.

Support Change - In his own words he is white nationalist, a populist, and a eco-fascist. He is not a white supremacist nor an Islamophobe and both of these are specifically addressed within his manifesto. He does not support white supremacy, but he does support what he believes is the right of a native ethnicity to rule over their own country. He believed he was fighting against what he described as a group of foreign invaders who out-bred his native european population into minority within their own country. He stated he had no problem with any ethnicity and wanted each one to flourish, only in their own countries.

This should be changed to either say "a fascist by his own admittance" or something similar. Wikipedia is (I hope) better than using a pejorative term rather than an accurate one. Other words which would be more accurate than white supremacist: fascist, self-decribed eco-fascist, terrorist, radical populist

You may say that his manifesto isnt a reliable source of anything but he goes through great lengths to detail his thoughts and actions and in reality there is no more reliable source you can get on the matter of determining who he is and why he did what he did than 70 pages of him detailing in writing his exact thoughts on everything he was about to do.

News sources are *not* an accurate representation of someones personal beliefs and should not be cited as such — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.249.87 (talk) 02:50, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Support change the ideology expressed in his manifest reflects "white nationalism" not "white supremacy". Calling "white supremacy" is not accurate. 108.52.21.34 (talk) 05:13, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Support inclusion -- widely reported in RS sources and describes well the views the perps themselves stated they had. Well, perhaps "Christian-culture supremacism" could better fit the bill but in English words for the alleged white race tend to be (mis)used to mean that and everyone understands what is meant.--Calthinus (talk) 01:00, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

The goes against both the official gov't views, and how it has been reported in RS'd news media. 50.111.50.240 (talk) 01:09, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I am sorry, but this needs to be called out -- what you just said is [demonstrably false -- here is an easy Google News search showing all the headlines of the event with the exact string "white supremacist" or "white supremacy" in them].--Calthinus (talk) 01:11, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy dictates that whatever the media says must be true, so unfortunately the wild accusations by journalists that he is "right-wing" is what needs to stay in the article. Until the media stops sensationalizing the story and starts fixing their accusations to explain the truth, the story needs to remain that he is an alleged white nationalist. Tycoon24 (talk) 01:34, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM O3000 (talk) 01:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Bingo! Nailed it. Instead Wikipedia is a soapbox for the thoughts of journalists. But we gotta play by the rules, so... Tycoon24 (talk) 01:42, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Forgive me for not knowing the rules on wikipedia well enough, but can a primary source not be used to supercede a tertiary source such as news media? 70 pages of the man describing his actions is much more accurate insight into his belief system than journalists own opinions on the matter. Why can a primary source not be used as cited material? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.249.87 (talk • contribs)

I agree with @Calthinus:. Strong support for inclusion on my part.Resnjari (talk) 06:01, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Good to see this addition has been made and thank you all for pushing for this addition. The addition of white supremacy is in line with the Charleston church shooting, both the Christchurch and Charleston shootings are similar in nature and based on the Tarrant manifesto and articles appearing, white supremacy and far-right extremism are legitimate motives. ThreatMatrix (talk) 06:19, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

A side note, what is everybody's opinion regarding adding Neo-Nazism as a motive? ThreatMatrix (talk) 06:37, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I Dont think neo-nazism is an apt term for this. After reading his manifesto the terms that come to mind are fascist, radical populist, and ethnostatist. The guy didnt seem to be particularly partial to Nazism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.249.87 (talk) 15:47, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. The white supremacist claim appears to be grounded in the assumption that since the shooter is White he must be a White Supremacist. No evidence to support this claim has been presented anywhere as far as I'm aware and no the MSM echo chamber doesn't count. If there is a basis for the claim please provide links! As it stands the evidence used in this article for the claim the shooter is a White supremacist who used neo-Nazi symbols appears to be an NZ Herald article - which only claims the shooter is Australian, and the Daily Beast which states authorities have suggested White supremacy and anti-Muslim beliefs but not confirmed it. It would seem that this piece is leaping to define this as a White Supremacist event before that has been proven. It may very well be so, but isn't Wikipedia supposed to wait before declaring it so? 人族 (talk)

Wikipedia is literally based on reliable mainstream media sources. Id say the fact they targeted Muslims and then mass murdered Muslims is plenty of evidence to show that the terrorists involved are anti-Muslim. Wikipedia is NOT conservapedia. 71.218.98.55 (talk) 21:08, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Can I assume you mean Support Change?

• Some sources do call him white supremacist [1]. This should be fine. My very best wishes (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Strongly Support Change

In his manifesto, he describes himself as a person of fascist (eco-fascist), ethno-nationalist, anti-immigration, and anti-Muslim views. In the manifesto, he explicitly says that he respects diversity and different ethnic and cultural groups, as long as they are not migrating and mixing with each other, ie. becoming "invaders".

From his manifesto: "...no, the attack was not an attack on diversity, but an attack in the name of diversity. To ensure diverse peoples remain diverse, separate, unique,undiluted in unrestrained in cultural or ethnic expression and autonomy (...) I wish the different peoples of their world all the best regardless of their ethnicity, race, culture of faith and that they live in peace and prosperity, amongst their own people, practicing their own traditions, in their own nations. But, if those same people seek to come to my peoples lands, replace my people, subjugate my people, make war upon on my people, ,hen I shall be forced to fight them, and hold nothing in reserve."

His views explicitly contradict the definition of "white supremacy" (white people being superior to people of other races and therefore requiring dominance over them).

The majority of secondary sources do NOT describe him or the attack as "white supremacist", but as a racist and Islamophobic terrorist attack, as how it should be referenced in the lede.1

The lede should NOT describe the terrorist attack in terms of the personal views of the perpetrator but in terms of what the attack was: an anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim terrorist attack. The rest of the article should include details about his views and his motivation in detail, mentioning that he is a self-proclaimed racist, anti-immigrant extremist, anti-Muslim, fascist,and ethno-nationalist.

108.5.247.99 (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

• Note Is this supposed to be an RFC? Please format properly per WP:RfC and start again. Also, His views explicitly contradict the definition of "white supremacy" (white people being superior to people of other races and therefore requiring dominance over them). This is pure WP:OR and nonsense. Tsumikiria⧸ 🌹🌉 22:40, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

That is from the actual Wikipedia page and this is my opinion on the talk page. 108.5.247.99 (talk) 22:43, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

"He believed he was fighting against what he described as a group of foreign invaders who out-bred his native european population into minority within their own country" - Except that he is by his own admission of European ancestry. In Australia and New Zealand, that makes his ethnic group the foreign invaders. If he advocates the rule of people of European ancestry over Australia and New Zealand, that's the very definition of white supremacy. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:51, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

No, Orange Mike, this is the definition of ethnostatism as he considers Austalia and New Zealand to be anglo territories. If he hadnt claimed in his manifesto something along the lines of him not having any issues with muslims as long as they stay in their pwn countries, and jews in theirs, etc... I may have agreed with you. But what he described was ethnostatism and not white supremacy

Strongly opposing change/supporting incusion Why was the phrase "white supremacist" removed from the lede? There are enough RS that are connecting the dots. Reuters, BBC, Al Jazeera, NY Times, and there are more. WP should not list a series of events, WP's purpose is to explain the "whys" and the "hows" (per RS ofcourse) Cinadon36 (talk) 11:29, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deaths by citizenship

I am concerned that the death by citizenship table is original research. Looking through the sources many just say they were born there or came from there. I find it odd that only one (so far) had New Zealand citizenship. The sources are a bit of a hodge podge and with so many unknowns I wonder if we are better off waiting for something a bit more reliable. AIRcorn (talk) 09:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I can confirm the deaths of 5 Indians from one of the most reliable Indian news paper Link - https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/christchurch-terror-attack-five-indians-confirmed-dead/article26559274.ece The-dodo-bird (talk) 10:22, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Al Jazeera mentioned name of the victims with nationality in this link - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/03/zealand-mosque-attacks-victims-190316183339297.html The-dodo-bird (talk) 10:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

CNN has mentioned the names with nationality in https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/16/asia/new-zealand-mosque-shooting-victims/index.html

The-dodo-bird (talk) 10:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

@Aircorn: It's common for people to have dual citizenship, and often it may take time for people to get New Zealand citizenship. At least one of the victims, Osama Adnan, was in the process of getting NZ citizenship when he died. Victim Abdus Samad was naturalized as a New Zealand citizen. Junaid Kara is also an NZ national. https://m.timesofindia.com/india/7-from-india-killed-in-mosque-massacre-in-new-zealand-say-families/amp_articleshow/68445675.cms Anyhow, if foreign governments make announcements about citizens of their own country who die in the event, it's absolutely relevant. They may or may not also have NZ citizenship. I strongly suggest adding the list back, so long as it's sourced. If there is a statement in a reliable source saying many had dual citizenship, that can be added too. WhisperToMe (talk) 11:30, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

2 of the victims were born and raised in fiji, 1 was there for a visit, the other has been there for 7 years, NZ only gives citizenship after 10 years so yeah a list should be added --27.123.171.231 (talk) 14:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

There was a list, but someone deleted it (twice). Jürgen Eissink (talk) 14:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

This is a classic example of why OR is a bad idea. Being born and raised in Fiji doesn't preclude NZ citizenship by descent (which is from birth). [2] Nil Einne (talk) 15:07, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Assuming it's the same person, this source [3] does say the person was a NZ permanent resident which is the more important point when it comes to any table of victims by citizenship than how long he'd been in NZ. Nil Einne (talk) 15:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

BTW, I'm fairly sure the 10 year thing is wrong anyway. You need to have been NZ resident status for 5 years and meet some other requirements [4] [5] for NZ citizenship by grant. After applying, it may take about 8 months before you receive your citizenship if there are no hiccups. You can obtain resident status upon first arrival in NZ if you have the right visa [6]. So you can be a NZ citizen after less than 6 years in certain ordinary circumstances. The 10 years may come in different circumstances, for example, someone who studies in NZ then works then obtains a resident visa via this pathway although practically it'll be about 10 years 8 months or so depending on application times etc for the other stuff. [7] (While I haven't considered "extraordinary circumstances", they are another reason why OR is bad no matter the fairly low chance they apply.) Nil Einne (talk) 15:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The above sources do not always say citizenship. The say things like "originally from", "born in", "Of .... origin" etc. It is original research to say that they have retained the citizenship from where they have come from or not gained New Zealand citizenship. Also the requirement for NZ citizenship is five years[8] not ten, demonstrating further why we should not be making assumptions. Dual citizenship complicates things and makes the list misleading. I say we wait for a more complete list in a reliable source before adding it back. There is no problem presenting the info in prose where context can be made clear. AIRcorn (talk) 15:37, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Some may clarify whether they had citizenship or just origins; a close reading of the source is necessary: quoting the sources and putting the quotes in the ref may help. The big issue is juggling dual citizenships. This India Times source stated that one of the men with origins from India was a NZ national. Also https://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2019/03/16/us/ap-as-new-zealand-mosque-shooting-victims-vignettes.html notes that some of the victims of Palestinian origin had Jordanian citizenship and are listed as Jordanians (Also: The Palestinian Foreign Ministry said Saturday that at least four Palestinians were among those killed, but acknowledged they could have been counted by Jordan or other countries."). (Now the number of ethnic Palestinians seems to be six). I would suggest at this time building the list in the talk page, after carefully reading each source and quoting it. Also preliminary numbers can change. WhisperToMe (talk) 15:57, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Minor addition request

(I'm a bit new to this)

This is regarding the 1st note "The markings included...". The writing in Armenian script can be seen on the 3rd picture on this site: . The lower left bottom writing says "Սարիղամիշի ճակատամարտ", which refers to this battle: . I have compared the Armenian script on the magazine to the script on the wikipedia article.

I would suggest adding: ... the 1913 Battle of Bulair, the 1914-15 Battle of Sarikamish, the 2010 Rotherham...

8.3.81.68 (talk) 16:36, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

References

You should find a source that confirms this. Although this is very astute on your part, on wiki we have this policy about "original research" that requires that we instead cite everything to a reliable source. Thanks though.--Calthinus (talk) 16:40, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Tarrant's February or March 1991 birthdate

These sources state that Tarrant recently celebrated his birthday prior to the massacre:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/15/brenton-tarrant-ordinary-white-man-turned-mass-murderer/ https://www.independent.ie/world-news/australasia/mum-was-blissfully-unaware-that-her-sons-world-had-turned-as-he-travelled-the-globe-37919698.html

Is this anything useful to add? SmokerOfCinnamon (talk) 17:18, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I think that we don’t need that much information on the murderer. IWI (chat) 19:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I agree. And, while I may be missing something, I don't see how you arrive at "celebrated his birthday prior to the massacre" from a passage about a birthday during his childhood, for which no date reference is given. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The use of the word "celebrated" would have been problematic as well, almost as if we're somehow praising him. A more NPOV word would have to be used if this somehow ends up in the article. IWI (chat) 21:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Alright. SmokerOfCinnamon (talk) 21:58, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

"OK gesture"

"During his court appearance, he smirked at the media and made an OK gesture, a symbol adopted by the white nationalist movement and online racists."

I'd say that this sentence is implying that the "OK gesture" is meant to be taken at face-value and not just as a bait for the media. It's just a meme image-board users made to trick the media into thinking that it means "white power". Perhaps the second part of the sentence could be scrapped or edited? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zekacs (talk • contribs) 17:12, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

The actual quote from the referenced article (in the New York Post) says: "(Tarrant) made an “OK” hand gesture during his appearance — a symbol used by white nationalists and racist internet trolls". However, this begs the question of whether the "New York Post" can be considered a reliable source. Personally, I don't think so, so I'd favour deleting the phrase ", a symbol adopted by the white nationalist movement and online racists", leaving just "made an OK gesture". Ross Finlayson (talk) 17:22, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Richard Spencer has used it. It can be both bait and taken at face value. It's like a lot of chan stuff in that respect. Anotheranothername (talk) 17:27, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

And it has also been stated in at least one New Zealand organ, also.HammerFilmFan (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

It's just the circle game, he "made you look". 83.25.246.209 (talk) 00:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

It needs some version of the second sentence for context. Otherwise why do we mention it at all. AIRcorn (talk) 04:43, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Sure IP, and those kids in Baraboo were just "waving". EvergreenFir (talk) 00:11, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Exactly. The media got got in this instance.  Nixinova  T  C  03:12, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Another name

Washington Post is reporting the name of one more suspect. ( 18-year-old) [9] Should we include? Cinadon36 (talk) 16:04, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

The involvement of the 18 year old man is said to be "tangential" [10] (ie he wasn't a major player). The preceding BBC News source has not named him, and the Wikipedia article should not name him unless he turns out to be a major participant or accomplice in some way.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 16:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

(EC) I don't know who the WP is naming but since the police have said at the moment they do not suspect anyone else of involvement in the attack, the answer is clearly no we shouldn't be naming random people. Some people appear to have done dumb or disgusting stuff in possible or probable response to the attack and may be charged for it, but that's a different thing. It's also possible people will be charged for completely unrelated things uncovered as a result of the investigations, although so far I haven't heard of any. (Some of those arrested earlier probably fall into this category, but AFAIK the only one charged not quite.) Nil Einne (talk) 16:27, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

References

As of that article, it sounds like he was one of the people we should "seriously consider" not naming. Really, the most usable part of BLP policy is when it talks about whether information is "presented as true". The Washington Post says a connection was alleged. It doesn't say his charges are connected, and it certainly doesn't name him as the shooter the way that much of the press is doing with Tarrant. AFAICT we just don't know this person is genuinely relevant to this article. Wnt (talk) 04:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

We should NOT post any links to the Manifesto

I've noticed there are several cited articles that can trace to the Manifesto online. We should not promote the Manifesto, nor publish any content of his hateful ideologies here. I don't think I need to elaborate on the reasons why promoting the Manifesto is a bad idea.

P.S. May all the victims Rest In Peace. Aceus0shrifter (talk) 12:06, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Content on the Manifesto is in the article because it is cited via RS news sources. Wikipedia is WP:NOTCENSORED. News outlets are writing about the manifesto due to events and the shooter's motivations. In a similar past example there is content about Anders Behring Breivik and his "manifesto". It is unpleasant situation, however the best editors can do is use RS sources and write based on facts.Resnjari (talk) 12:15, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Resnjari, we are not censored, but we can have editorial restraint to limit it's distribution where possible. If there are other RS of equal quality which do not link to it, we can prefer those. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:17, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The thing is RS media is linking it to what happened. I'm not saying to recite the document verbatim, but its important for readers to know that it contained hate speech and so on. The perpetrators of the shooting where not doing things in some void. It was a clear and meretriciously planned act with an ideology (i.e rightwing/conservative politics and so on) behind it.Resnjari (talk) 13:26, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

We can of course include stuff about this manifesto-thing based on what RS says about it, but any quotes or whatever picked directly from it by editors should be removed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:50, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I understand the reasoning of Aceus0shrifter (and I myself share the same feelings against this hateful ideology) but I do not think that either we can promote or hide his Manifesto. Once it is on the net, anyone can find it. What we have to do, is to summarize Rel Sources. If many RS are mentioning a particular phrase from his manifesto, that means it is an important phrase and we should mention it too. If not, then we shouldn't reproduce it.Cinadon36 (talk) 13:57, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

That. And what is in the article right now is not that important, sources will calm down and get better eventually. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:04, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

(ec) Picking quotes directly from it is otherwise known as using primary sources, i.e. it should be done "carefully". There is a lot of stuff in there that is genuinely interesting -- for example, its position on homosexuality is that "I simply do not care all that much what gay people do. As long as they are loyal to their people and place their peoples well being first, then I have no issues." It would appear that well within my lifetime the Western world has gone from routine prime-time footage of people calling for all gays to be put to death to a situation where even the most infamous self-professed fascist expresses an attitude of tolerance even despite the apparent contradiction with his obsession about birth rates. As matters of political persuasion go, this is bloody miraculous. But putting it in this article might admittedly be seen as "UNDUE" by those with more immediate interests. Wnt (talk) 14:26, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Resnjari, correct. It was however also an act that was attempting clearly to USE popular and Internet culture to enlarge the effects of said act and ideology. We should not let ourselves be used, not even indirectly by RS. We are not in a rush here. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:21, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

TheDJ yes i agree. I think the current info on the manifesto in the article balances it out without giving air to hate ideas contained inside it. This article will grow, just the like the Brevik one many years ago and info comes to hand.Resnjari (talk) 14:30, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I removed any direct quotes from the manifesto on the page. That said we can't exclude any reference to the hate document. It was a ideological text that the shooter had articulated for the events. We cant shield readers from bad things in the world otherwise much of the Wikipedia articles would not exist. The best that we can do is write the article in a civil manner via RS sources and yes there will be uncomfortable information as NZ police and future court cases relay to the public through the media the horrible details.Resnjari (talk) 14:19, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

(ec many) @TheDJ: saying we aren't "censored" but have "editorial restraint" is a distinction without a difference. We are not writing down to the readers as a group of low-castes who can't be allowed to get bad ideas in their heads and who trust us to be their Parents and tell them "this is bad" without saying too much. We are writing for researchers here! Because every single person on the planet has the right to be a researcher -- to delve as shallowly or deeply into any matter he or she pleases. And no amount of blather by talking heads looking to grind an axe against gun ownership or Pewdiepie is going to substitute for a researcher gaining access to the primary document. Wnt (talk) 14:07, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Wnt I find any sort of extremism to be revolting, including free speech extremism. Like FB takes down videos of live broadcast shootings we have similar responsibilities. We are a global platform, not an experiment in free speech. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 14:11, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

You wouldn't care to list or explain those responsibilities? Responsibilities to who or to what? Which news articles are "too much like news" to use? Never forget how much worse than useless it is to take this content out of wider public exposure as Facebook is doing -- people go from complaining that there are some racists on Facebook, where they could argue with them, to delivering lurid denunciations of the "toxic cesspool" of places like some Gab forums where they regrouped. No doubt the next step will be that if you run any internet-connected computer where two people can talk without being watched by a censor that you ought to go to jail, and any opposition to that is "free speech extremism". Then call me a free speech extremist, proudly, because I know full well that if you succeed at censoring every single place the racists can talk, they will spend more time loading their guns instead. Who benefits from that? In any case, as you notice, all this is off topic for Wikipedia, because we are an experiment in free speech - the freedom of the people to write an encyclopedia. And to do that, we need to preserve and cherish the sources. Wnt (talk) 14:36, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

I think what editors here were concerned about is making direct quotes from the manifesto in the article which by default air those views even though the editor adding the content did not have this in mind. Anyway the manifesto stuff is fixed.Resnjari (talk) 14:39, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

The manifesto is a huge part of this. Does the article on Mein Kampf not cite Mein Kampf because the stuff in it is aweful? No. It's history, for better or for worse. Censoring it will never work, it will just continue to Barbara Streisand effect. We need to remain objective and that includes including the things which have unpleasantries in them. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a moral police. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.12.249.87 (talk • contribs)

As Resnjari said earlier, WP:NOTCENSORED applies here. Whatever its content, the manifesto is a valuable primary source relating to this topic. The only exception would be if there were legal issues in linking to it, and there are none that I'm aware of. Xcalibur (talk) 10:51, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I didn't say something about including in the wiki page a direct weblink to the document (although at this point in time i would not be in favour), i was saying more about not directly quoting from the document. I also was not in favour of excluding any mention about the manifesto which some editors raised as it is part of what happened. Only reliable sources should be used for that, not the actual document. In the end personal diligence needs to be applied as we want readers to know without giving air to the gunman's views verbatim and amplifying them which media is stating was part of his intention with the shooting. I hope that assists in clarifying things. Best.Resnjari (talk) 20:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that helps sort it out, thanks. I certainly didn't mean to misrepresent your views. While the Manifesto is a significant component of this story, I agree that it should be used with discretion. Xcalibur (talk) 05:06, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Are you guys hearing yourselves? "Dangerous ideas", "hateful ideologies". Why do you edit wikipedia, to keep the minds of people in the right narrative? As previously mentioned wikipedia is not WP:NOTCENSORED, additionally removing over 15 000 lines of text is violation of WP:Preserve policy. Smells like WP:Advocacy to me, is someone here afraid of words? If so, you should start editing out every article on religious texts, they seem much more violent and "dangerous" than a manifesto of some terrorist. Information is free and as long as I will live this will be the case, Mr. Censorship of "hateful ideologies" Konecat (talk) 07:00, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Konecat, check the discussion lower down about notability of the portfolio manifesto. Sounds like another RfC will have to be done... maybe? Like, apparently it could be coatracking to include his mention of trump (I wrote the part about that in the text you restored) but apparently it is not coatracking to cover in exhaustive detail his views on Muslims, link to the child abuse scandals, etc. At one point there was even a wikilink to the Arab slave trade in there. Just endless fights already about what from the manifesto is and is not relevant. I don't know the policy for something like this, but perhaps there could be separate article on the manifesto if people think a huge exegesis on it is encyclopedic. I'm not going to revert you or anything, this article has started to take it out of me already (NZer living overseas) ~ Anotheranothername (talk) 07:10, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I have no dog in this fight, but please refrain from abusing WP:PRESERVE. Its second sentence is: "Preserve appropriate content." and it appears to me that the appropriateness of this content is in dispute. That pretty much eliminates PRESERVE as an argument. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:12, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

And why would you think it's not appropriate? Because you don't like it? Appropriate in that context has everything to do with notability and reliability, not with your subjective opinion on the matter, Mandruss. Konecat (talk) 07:16, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I haven't said it's not appropriate. I've said that multiple editors acting in good faith feel that it's not appropriate. No editor gets to sidestep the WP:CONSENSUS process by waving policy shortcuts around. ―Mandruss ☎ 07:21, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Why do you try to suppress the information? Someone edited it out, yet again. Of course, they edit out the most important information. The writings on the guns and magazines and the motivations behind the attack I'd say are very notable. Yet User:Denny thinks somehow they are not and leaves the most irrelevant information for the show instead, deleteing over 13000 lines. For example, not even once does this article mention Ebba Akerlund, yet her name is on all of the guns, of the guns literally has written "THIS IS FOR HER", her name is all over the manifesto and is cited by the perperator as one of his primary reasons for this terrorist attack. I don't understand how is that not notable. This is outright WP:advocacy and attempted censorship. I want WP:ANI involved. 89.68.14.55 (talk) 09:46, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

User:89.68.14.55, you seem to be discussing the weapons, not the manifesto. ~ Anotheranothername (talk) 10:55, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

He had lots of writings on the gun and we do not need to add them all. It is not worth naming an 11 year old girl in connection to this guys murderous acts, especially as her parents are strongly against it.[11] And before censorship is cried, WP:Not censored is not an excuse to add anything we want to an article. We can convey the message behind the writings without naming her directly (something like "victims of the 2017 Stockholm truck attack" is enough). AIRcorn (talk) 21:28, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I won't cry censorship, but I will say you are being sentimental. You seem unwilling to see that – according to his mainfesto – especially that victim triggered a change in his worldview which resulted in the Christchurch attacks. And, yes, the parents expressed their disgust about the connection between an alledged mass murderer and their daughter, but in the article you reference they don't say anything that you want us to believe. The connection is there, it should not be denied. And suggesting "victims of" while clearly one (young) victim is meant is a clear lie. I know the subject is far from easy, but if you can't stand the heat, please leave the kitchen – you are being sentimental and it does not seem to improve your view on the matter. I don't mean to harass you, but in my opinion you are being unreasonable. Jürgen Eissink (talk) 22:00, 17 March 2019 (UTC).

If there is a link to Anders Breivik manifesto in the article about him, there should be direct link to the Christchurch document in this article too, how is this any different? Crusier (talk) 15:41, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

That link is dead. wumbolo ^^^ 17:23, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Those are not dead though: Anders_Behring_Breivik#cite_note-202 & 2011_Norway_attacks#cite_note-manifesto1-31 Crusier (talk) 21:14, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

If we are not to include the manifesto, how are you all not different to the left wing attacker in Christchurch? DaneGil1996 (talk) 17:38, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

You can also read the Unabomber manifesto online, but like most of these screeds it is rambling stuff which serves only to illustrate what a wackjob the author is. Many websites have taken down the alleged Tarrant manifesto because it calls for the deaths of Sadiq Khan among others. Threats or incitement to kill are usually against a web host's terms of service.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:42, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

To censorship is useless. Whoever wanted to read the manifesto or see the video for reasons other than plain curiosity or research alread read/saw it. And I must say, probably earlier than us, the media and the authorities. Both are important primary sources. As of now the manifesto is the best source we have about the perpetrator intentions and most of what happened is in the video. -- Daniel Souza (talk) 00:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Why not post direct links to it ? I come to Wikipedia to get informed, unbiased information. If I've wanted positions and statements I'd head to my favourite social media outlet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.200.253.198 (talk) 04:24, 18 March 2019 (UTC)