Talk:Christianity and colonialism

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Rationale for this article

In tagging this article for speedy deletion, Jsfouche indicated that this article " does not expand upon, detail or improve information within the existing article(s) on the subject", namely Colonialism, Age of Discovery, and Catholic Church and the Age of Discovery.

This may be true at the moment since those are the articles from which the initial text of the article was taken but it is intended that this situation will be only temporary.

However, my plan for this article is broader than the current text might imply. The motivation for this article came from work at Christianity and violence. The purpose of this article is to focus more closely on the charge that Christian missionaries were effectively agents of the European colonial powers and did great harm to the indigenous peoples. (NB: I am intending neither a POV attack on Christian missionaries nor an apologetic supporting them. I intend an NPOV treatment that presents both the charge and the defense. For an example of my commitment to NPOV, see my recent work on Christianity and violence.)

I have started by copying text from the articles on Colonialism, Age of Discovery, and Catholic Church and the Age of Discovery because those are articles that I was familiar with, having worked at one time or another on all three of them.

However, Christian missionaries during the colonial era were both Catholic and Protestant. Also, the colonial era encompassed a greater time span than just the Age of Discovery. Most notably, there is a vast history of missionaries in colonial Africa.

Most importantly, however, is the fact that Colonialism and Age of Discovery focus on a more general political history of the topics and not on the religious aspect. The role of Christian missionaries gets scant treatment in those two articles. This article will provide a way to focus more specifically on the impact of Christian missionaries (both positive and negative) on colonized peoples.

--Richard S (talk) 06:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Reference problems

References to publications by Heather Sharkey do not link to her publications — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter.edelsten (talk • contribs) 21:46, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Bevans, Steven. "Christian Complicity in Colonialism/ Globalism"

This link leads to a PDF excerpt of a book by a member of The missionary congregation of the Society of the Divine World and the book is directed at Christian missionaries. The link to the full book leads to a 404 look. This represents significant bias, which is apparent in the content of the article. The text in the article that cites the above source is:

>This was not all bad — oftentimes missionaries and church leaders were heroic defenders of the rights of indigenous peoples.

Further, there are unsourced claims that represent a bias as well:

>At first, many colonial assaults received church sanctions, but there were also leaders of the church who opposed the injustice against for example the native Americans and later also for the African slaves, and sent reports home about atrocities in the Congo Free State. Even though the missionaries distanced themselves from the violence of colonial governments, the work was characterized by an 'imperialist worldview'. New research shows that, contrary to popular postcolonial ideas that most contacts with the western world during colonialism were negative, Christian missionaries were catalysts for democratic reforms and education that currently is taken for granted. About half of the variety of democracy levels in Africa, Asia and Latin America today can be explained by protestant missionary work according to Robert Woodbury.

Only the last sentence is verified by the source.

I'd like to see this article deleted. Newheartrestart (talk) 23:53, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

Article rating

An article without a definition of the scope int he lead, and with extended quotes in the lead, is not B or C-class. Maybe WP:BLOWUP would be best... Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:40, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Agree with WP:BLOWUP. Important topic, but current form of article lacks focus, direction, editing, and citations. GottaShowMe (talk) 08:25, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Looks like someone wants to kill the article after it survived 10 years. “Important topic but we disagree on the specifics and don’t like references provided, therefore let’s kill it. Maybe it will resurface in form we would like 10 years from now”.

And at least of the two opinions comes from a user that has just been created for the purpose of attacking this article, it seems.

Interesting.

Korean section raises questions

I struggle to understand how Korea fits into the subject of this article.

The early Christianization of Korea was a primarily grassroots and indigenous-led movement. It originated from the work of Korean scholars, not foreign missionaries. (See Korean_Martyrs and Christianity in Korea.) Korean scholars learned about Christian theology from Catholic texts imported from China. Some scholars found the Catholic teachings compelling and decided to convert. They also shared these teachings with other Koreans. There were thousands of practicing Christians in Korea before the first missionary (a Chinese priest, not a Westerner) set foot in Korea.

This is neither an example of Western colonial pressure to convert nor that of strong foreign missionary influence (Western or otherwise). It is not inherently colonialist if members of a society choose to integrate beliefs of foreign origin into their own lives.

Similarly to Christian colonialism in Japan, China and Korea, Christian missionaries were resisted and, if over-persistent, executed (Saint Adalbert, Saint Bruno). This served as an excuse for full-scale military invasion, looting, ethnic cleansing, enslavement, cultural and religious destruction, Christianization and suppression of information.

Christian missionaries in Korea were eventually met with force and became Korean martyrs, which became pretext for French campaign against Korea. Donghak and Donghak Peasant Revolution was a Korean reaction against Christianization attempts.

This narrative depicts Western missionaries as the impetus for religious persecution of Christians in Korea. The persecution of Christians in Korea predates Western missionary involvement by at least half a century. According to the French campaign against Korea article, the first Western missionaries did not arrive until the mid-19th century. The execution of nine French missionaries alongside thousands of Korean Christians in the latter half of the 19th century may have provided "justification" for an unsuccessful punitive exhibition by French colonial forces. However, this colonial excursion remains a relatively minor footnote of the history of Christianity in Korea and the history of colonialism in Korea. The article ignores the influence and self-determination of indigenous Korean Christians by over-emphasizing the role of the West. If anything, the actions of colonial Japan played a much larger role than colonial France by opening up isolationist Korea to the West. This allowed a large influx of American missionaries into Korea in the latter quarter of the 19th century. However, Japan was not a Christian nation nor was it directly tied to Western missionary efforts.

The article also mentions the Presbyterian roots of Kim Il-sung, without explaining how it connects to colonialism. It seems like a dangling piece of trivia.

--GottaShowMe (talk) 06:50, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

If you are questioning the Wikipedia article on French-Korean conflict, you should discuss there. It clearly states:

The French campaign against Korea was an 1866 punitive expedition undertaken by the Second French Empire in retaliation for the earlier Korean execution of seven French Catholic missionaries.

1. There is a scientifically proven pattern of Christian missionaries (especially Jesuits) cultivating foreign elites. In China the connection seems to have persisted, by accident or not, via family ties, from 16th century all the way to the 20th. Is that a conjecture? No, because Jesuits went on missions in couples and sent regular written reports which are deposited in their archive in Rome to this day. There is ample scientific research around this topic in the Chinese and Japanese contexts, not to mention other parts of the world. The early Korean converts you are mentioning were elites, since they are reported (should we believe the likely biased Christian sources) to have converted by reading Christian books (at the time only elites read). Interestingly, this would imply that Protestant Christianity (which does not require priest to intermediate the faithful-God relationship) was a better fit to Koreans even at that time, even though the missionaries were Catholic.

Should we believe Kim Il-sung is part of the global pattern or a unique outlier? Since Christianity mutated into secular but similarly expansionist, universalist, proselytizing and west-serving ideologies such as liberalism, communism, socialism etc. (substantial body of scientific material on this spanning more than a century in the west and I believe Asia), it seems Kim Il-sung fits the pattern. Thus he is justly mentioned. Perhaps the section should be expanded to clarify the connection, specifically declared concern for the poor that both Christianity and communism share.

2. Should we ascribe agency to Koreans when some of them chose to willingly adopt a foreign ideology, whether it’s Christianity or Communism? The historical and global pattern of Christianity is clear about where agency lies in Christianity and whose interests in serves. The agency is not with the believers - in fact Christians are encouraged to pass their agency to their god (to be “guided“ by him).

The very term “religion”, which is of Christian origin, etymologically derives from “binding, obligation”, a concept similar to other monotheistic faiths of Middle Eastern origin, specifically Judaism and Islam. In contrast, some other major religions profess to cultivate personal agency, such as Zen Buddhism.

It could be argued that non-western believers have even less agency than western believers who are at least enjoying the benefits of western colonialism which Koreans do not.

Interestingly Christianity needed to make very political adaptations in Korea to compete with homebred ideas - Koreans are generally protestants and thus have a modicum or formal financial and political independence from Vatican. This is not too different from the concessions Christianity is making to the PRC government. So Christianity in Korea seems to have had to “loosen the bonds” to make headway.

3. Would you argue that Korea is the only country in East Asia not to have experienced an interplay between Christianity and Colonialism despite being a country divided between the South, underwritten by security guarantee from Christian United States, and the North, ruled by Christian-derived Communist regime founded by a person born to a ranking (not lay) Christian family?

So far you only seem to be disputing the fact that the French interplayed with Christianity in attempt to colonize Korea. We have a regional and global pattern established over a vast period of time. If you are able to provide references that prove there was no such interplay (uniquely in Korea), I will consider conceding.

The above unsigned response exemplifies some of my issues with the writing of this article. Almost everything written above is original research--the author's own theories.

Examples of author's theories and unsupported assertions:

• There is a "scientifically proven pattern of Christian missionaries (especially Jesuits) cultivating foreign elites." (Emphasis added.)
• Protestant Christianity would have been a better fit for the early Christian Koreans compared to Catholicism.
• Kim Il-sung "fits the pattern" of some kind of mutated Christian ideology.
• "Christianity mutated into secular but similarly expansionist, universalist, proselytizing and west-serving ideologies such as liberalism, communism, socialism etc."
• Concern for the poor is an example of the clear connection between Christianity and communism. This commonality clarifies the relationship between Kim Il-sung and Christian colonialism, and the inclusion of this factoid in the article itself.
• The nature of the Christian religion implies that people cannot be exercising their own agency when they convert to Christianity.
• The etymological origin of the word "religion" supports that adherents to Christianity lack personal agency compared to other religions such as Zen Buddhism.
• "It could be argued that non-western believers have even less agency than western believers who are at least enjoying the benefits of western colonialism which Koreans do not."
• The larger Protestant population of Korean Christians allows a financial and political independence from the Vatican that is "not too different from the concessions Christianity is making to the PRC government."
• There is an established regional and global pattern of Christian colonization, therefore it should be assumed that it happened in Korea as well. ("If you are able to provide references that prove there was no such interplay (uniquely in Korea), I will consider conceding.")

Original research is permitted on Talk pages, however the above uncited theories are being used as justification for the content in this article. Wikipedia is not a platform for such editorialized content.

More issues in the article itself:

• "Christianization in Korea was largely managed by Paris Foreign Missions Society." -- citation needed.
• "Hwang, a persecuted Catholic and nephew of renowned scholar Yag-yong Jung, was exiled for having been sympathetic to Catholicism despite later losing interest. He attempted to send correspondence to Catholic priests in Beijing detailing the persecution and pleading with the Qing dynasty to intervene on behalf of Catholics in Joseon, with Western ships if necessary. The letter was intercepted en route, and Hwang was executed on December 10 (the 5th of 11th lunar month)." -- citation needed.
• "The North Korean Kim dynasty has Christian roots in Kim Il-sung" -- still no clarification for how the religion of a 20th century leader relates to colonialism.
• Korean War is mentioned but there is no justification for how the Korean War relates to colonialism. The United States did not attempt to establish a colony in Korea following WWII. This was during a period of decolonization as Korea was granted independence from colonial Japan.
• "In the aftermath of the war, Korean Christian leaders played key role in determining leadership of South Korea going forward" -- no connection to colonialism.
• "There is a growing body of work on colonial missionary practices in contemporary Korea." -- However the citation given ("Postcolonial Reflection on the Christian Mission: The Case of North Korean Refugees in China and South Korea") is about postcolonialism not colonialism.

GottaShowMe (talk) 00:40, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

Quick response

1. No, I have done no original research on the topic. It seems you are deploying acquisition of “original research” to shape the article to your own bias without providing any counterfactuals.

2. Your arguments about my response to you here are irrelevant. Stay on topic - Christianity and colonialism, as per their separate Wikipedia definitions.

3. You are misstating half of my points and twisting the other half to your biases. My responses did not seem to justify content of the article which is properly referenced and stands on its own merits. I engaged with your arguments, not with the content of the article.

As for the article itself: 1. Foreign missions society - click the link to FMS article and there you see it.

2. Go to revolt page by clicking the link and there you find it.

3. You did not accept the clarifications provided and did not provide a counter argument - that indicates your bias.

4. You clearly did not read the referenced doctoral work on how American Christian missionaries shaped post-Korean-war government in Korea. Tip: it’s even in the summary of he referenced article, somewhere in the first 30 pages or so. As an aside, there is plenty of material out there that would at least partially question your assertion on Korean independence from USA - when America provides army basis and Korea is picking up the bill for that. I’ll read the colony article on Wikipedia again and get back to you.

5. This article is about connection between Christianity and colonialism. Therefore you have just stated you disagree with the very premise of this article. Again, the referenced scholarly work counters your argument. How about you start reading?

6. Oh, that’s a cheap trick. The title of the article mentions postcolonialism, yes. For postcolonialism to exist, colonialism must have existed. So you just contradicted yourself. And no, the article does not talk about Japanese colonialism in South Korea. So, which other colonialism that was? Jesus Christ.

I could go on.

First page of Google results on Christianity and liberalism: http://bostonreview.net/books-ideas/samuel-moyn-larry-siedentop-christianity-liberalism-history And I haven’t even read it. There is 200+ years of top-flight scholarship tracing evolution of Christianity into liberalism, communism, and what have you. Some thinkers in this direction included Nietzsche, Hegel, Heidegger, Weber (the sociologist), I think Marx, not to mention many other famous names, not to mention hundreds or thousands of popular-media articles, and I’m not even getting into Japanese philosophers, or Communist philosophers themselves.

I’d love Wikipedia to be of the standard that would merit me summarizing 100 philosophy books for the sake of an argument over one or two sentences, but I’d rather people like yourself do that. May be agree on such division of work?

Yet again - this is for the sake of you learning something. Those are not arguments to back up the article. This information (Christianity and communism) is not included in the article, since it’s not immediately relevant to the topic.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.102.135.60 (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC) 

If you are trying to build consensus for improvements to this article you may want to start by registering with a Wikipedia identity so that other editors comments written to you can be read.

If you are somehow referring to edits made by myself, you might also want to address the issues I brought up in a direct and concrete way. A direct response is better than a "quick" response. tahc ^chat 16:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Christian mission and colonialism

What this article dances around and causes unclarity by is that it talks alot about the colonial dimension of christian mission and not only about christianity as an integrated part of concrete state colonialism and imperialism (the latter being also in the background without being raised). That said I have no concrete imput, this is more a note to focus future work and discussion. Nsae Comp (talk) 15:03, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

Improperly sourced content

I was mistaken when I thought that this [1] material was entered in the "Age of Discovery" section, but it is still not properly sourced. The only claim that has proper sourcing is the portion about what percentage of the schools were run by the Catholic Church.

The fact that mass graves have recently been found at two sites is unsourced but can easily be sourced; however one site in BC and one site in Saskatchewan is not "across Canada". The continuation "Canadian Indian residential school system was systematically used for colonization, genocide, acculturation, Christian indoctrination, sexual abuse and likely murder of thousands of indigenous children." is unsourced WP:POV.

"The school system was run by Christian churches expressly on behalf of the Canadian government, so much so that the churches asked the government to cover their victim liabilities when the sheer number of indigenous lawsuits threatened to bankrupt the Christian orders involved; the government indeed ended up covering the liabilities by funding the Aboriginal Healing Foundation." is also improperly sourced and WP:POV. The source relates to only one specific school, not the system in general.

"The first time similar mass graves were found was in 1974 at Battleford Industrial School, to no media attention and no government or church action." is unsourced, WP:POV, and incorrect. The linked article clearly shows that there was media attention and government action at the time: a media report is linked; the cemetery was excavated; the individual graves were marked; a cairn was erected; and the cemetery was fenced. Meters (talk) 17:14, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Russian colonialism

Checked this article after a few months to see role of Russian (Orthodox Christian) colonialism to be completely removed, although referenced (there are multiple books about this by leading scientific publishers - check Google Books). This is ripe for re-inclusion - not least for balance so that we do not assume only western Christianity has this history. 203.251.156.104 (talk) 05:58, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

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