Talk:Christine Love (writer)

Transgender

This person identifies as female but is not biologically female. She states this in http://loveconquersallgam.es/post/60281881446/an-open-letter-to-jerry-holkins Sorry about formatting I don't really Wikipedia too often. But every other trans person with an article notes this. Someone please edit this article to reflect this.

Article Improvement

Currently, there are a few issues with the article. One problem is the introduction, which is rather lengthly for the article. Here are some examples of good introductions:

• Counter-Strike: Global Offensive
• Dead Space 3
• Portal 2

-017Bluefield (talk) 08:26, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The introduction is five sentences long. CS:GO is 6, DS3 is 4 for an upcoming game, and Portal 2 is 4 paragraphs. This intro is shorter than Kellee Santiago's, a GA and a similar topic, which is 8 sentences for a slightly longer article. --PresN 17:33, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Also, as you seem to want a 1/5 rule from your article comments, note that the lead is 1 paragraph, and the article 5. In word count, the lead is 146 words, and the article 943 (excluding headings and captions). That's 15.5%, or less than 1/5. I really don't understand what point you're trying to make. --PresN 17:41, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I said about 1/5, not quite 1/5. -017Bluefield (talk) 20:17, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

And? It is about 1/5. Exactly 1/5 by paragraph count, less than 1/5 by word count. If you think it's still too long relative to the article, the best solution is to lengthen the article. My main problem with it is that it's a bit short on personal biographical details- talks a lot about her games, and how she feels about them/what she was trying to do, but doesn't mention, for example, her age, or where she was born, or anything she did prior to 2010. I've emailed her to ask about a picture, since I can't find any free-use ones, but I think the best thing you could do for the article would be to find details about Christine Love the person, rather than Christine Love the visual novelist. Maybe on Twitter? Didn't see anything more in her blog, but she does tweet a whole lot. --PresN 20:26, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, maybe I didn't say what I meant. The introduction shouldn't be descriptive; that's what the rest of the article is for. Check DS3 and CS:GO again; they summarize points, and go no further. -017Bluefield (talk) 20:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I'll drop the length thing. What about the intro is "descriptive", in your mind? The part you had cut in your edit is "Love dropped out of her English degree during its development and is currently fully supported financially on the proceeds." In my mind, that's not a description, that's a relevant fact- Love is no longer a student, she is a full-time developer.

That is, of course, beside the fact that I'm not sure why you think leads shouldn't be "descriptive" - WP:LEAD says that "It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points". The first sentence of the lead here defines the topic, the second establishes context and explains why she's notable, and the last four summarize the article- 1) she started in college and got famous with Digital. 2) Then she made LandO and DTIP. 3) Then she made Analogue, which cost money, and she dropped out of college to go full-time. 4) She is currently making Hate Plus. None of those are "descriptive", even if that was an issue. They summarize the biography section. Honestly, the lead needs another sentence, summarizing the "Influences and philosophy" section, but I'm not going to fight that one given that you want(ed) the lead to be shorter. --PresN 20:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

The lead should be a summary, but shouldn't include all relevant points - just enough for any reader to understand (only general, aside of certain notable works). -017Bluefield (talk) 21:05, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Look. Please read WP:LEAD. The lead should be a summary of the entire article, and of appropriate length. A three-sentence lead does not summarize this article fully. I don't know where you got the idea that leads need to discount that much information, but it is not true. For example, see Kellee Santiago (GA) or Jenova Chen (GA) - both indie game developers like Christine Love, both Good Articles, both of similar lengths (Chen is a little longer), both with 2 paragraph leads (Santiago 7 sentences, Chen 10). Those are absolutely reasonable lengths for leads to be, and reasonable amounts of information to have. Or look at Frank Klepacki - featured article, 3 paragraphs. I don't know why you seem to think that leads should say nothing more than the infobox, but that is why we have infoboxes. If you really think that I'm wrong, ask at WT:VG (or anywhere else), but I guarantee that they won't agree with you. --PresN 00:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I get it. Sorry. -017Bluefield (talk) 22:00, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

"[t]he person"

Well, like you mentioned before, PresN, the article needs some more detail about "[CL t]he person]". I know Twitter is the most up-to-date (even though that's mostly for "current status" stuff. Did you check her description there? -017Bluefield (talk) 22:12, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Christine Love (visual novelist)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:05, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I'll make straightforward copyedits as I go (please revert if I inadvertently change the meaning) and drop questions below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:05, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

• Lead has three consecutive sentences beginning with "She..."

• Last two sentences of lead have "currently in them

• Add descriptor for Riva Celso in lead

• "largely unsuccessfully" tried to sell - de-quote.

• her first "big" game - de-quote. you mean commercially successful? or...what?

• the free game was downloaded by "countless thousands", - I think this is the sort of thing that an independent source would be needed. Also de-quoting and rewording.

• add descriptor for Gamasutra

• There are rather alot of direct quotes. I do agree that many are good and add to the prose...but I think if some could be ditched it'd be good.

Interesting read overall. Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:22, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

I've "addressed" your "points", as well as removed/reworded "a bunch of quotes". --PresN 01:56, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

1. Well written?:

Prose quality:

Manual of Style compliance:

2. Factually accurate and verifiable?:

References to sources:

Citations to reliable sources, where required:

No original research:

3. Broad in coverage?:

Major aspects:

Focused:

4. Reflects a neutral point of view?:

Fair representation without bias:

5. Reasonably stable?

No edit wars, etc. (Vandalism does not count against GA):

6. Illustrated by images, when possible and appropriate?:

Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

Overall:

Pass or Fail: Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:06, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

New picture

• http://twitpic.com/bn5uxj

—017Bluefield (talk) 00:02, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

No good for the article- you can't use fair-use photos of living people, and there's nothing in the tweet stating the copyright status. I emailed here a while back asking for one, but she never got back to me. --PresN 05:44, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

Ah, oops. X( —017Bluefield (talk) 06:38, 22 December 2012 (UTC)

(p.s. She's more likely to respond on Twitter than e-mail —017Bluefield (talk))

???

• http://blog.scoutshonour.com/post/42004313666/last-week-i-did-a-photoshoot-with-my-awesome

—017Bluefield (talk) 03:35, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Get her to submit a ticket to OTRS that one of them is free use (either GNU, or CC-BY-SA), but all photos are fully copyrighted by default so you need express notice of the copyright being something else to use it in an article. See Wikipedia:Contact_us_-_Licensing, specifically the last paragraph, for information on getting it sorted out, if she doesn't want to post it on her blog or upload it to flickr with the right license. --PresN 05:43, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

She says on her bio page that "If you [...] need an illustration for your [...] Wikipedia article, here’s a bunch of pictures you’re free to use." (emphasis mine) I guess that won't suffice, though? DarkPhoenix (talk) 10:26, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

No, which is really, really frustrating - see Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials. You can't say "this is good for wikipedia"- you have to give it explicitly either public domain or CC-BY-SA status. She's saying that it's free to use for pretty much anything there, but unless she explicitly states that it's free to use for any purpose, even commercial, even if you modify the picture, then it can't be used while she's alive. It's a massive pain as an editor to deal with. --PresN 19:14, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Permission?

http://loveconquersallgam.es/bio —017Bluefield (talk) 01:13, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

That's the same link that DarkPhoenix gave above, and the answer is the same: it's not explicit enough that it allows modification and user in commercial contexts for use on Wikipedia. --PresN 09:34, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, okay. Should we tell her that? :/

—017Bluefield (talk) 20:03, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

Link to Blog

Why was the link to Love's blog reverted back? That link doesn't work. Her blog is at: http://blog.scoutshonour.com/--CombatEye (talk) 23:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

LGBT?

This article is currently in Category:LGBT writers from Canada. However, I can't see where in the article it says she's LGBT. Does anyone have a source for that? If not, it should be removed per WP:BLP. Robofish (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

Her twitter description- "By and large the most successful Western visual novel developer is Christine Love, a blatantly homosexual young woman." Tried to make it a little more obvious in the Influences and philosophy section- was trying to not make it a big statement out of nowhere, but I guess I swung too subtle. --PresN 00:41, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Christine Love Transgender

Why is there no mention about her transgender state on this wiki? Why is it being whitewashed? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.151.43.44 (talk) 23:18, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Uh, because she isn't? Post a source if you can prove otherwise, but pretty sure you're just making stuff up. --PresN 02:12, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree in this image here http://indiegames.com/Christine%20Love.png she certainly looks masculine. I've also heard her talking about her experience as transgender. He or she must keep it covered it, there's no point in doing so I think be proud of who you are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.54.179.99 (talk) 17:27, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

Right. If your only "proof" is that she "looks masculine" in a picture, then we're done here. Post a link to somewhere where she says that she is transgender, or stop trolling. --PresN 17:43, 17 June 2013 (UTC)

She states that she is transgender here. 82.132.223.91 (talk) 05:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Ah, thank you! —017Bluefield (talk) 05:37, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Yes, thanks!- and good job Bluefield working it into the article without just shouting it in the lead, that was well done. --PresN 07:02, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome, I guess! :) —017Bluefield (talk) 09:45, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

I've just reverted a more recent edit that did exactly that (shout it in the lead). To pre-empt any more claims of 'whitewashing', I note that Wikipedia:OPENPARA specifically states that sexuality should not generally be emphasised in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. chrismear (talk) 00:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd be fine if someone made it more explicit in, say, the influences section where it's talking about sexuality in her games, but there's no need to state it as the most notable thing about her- the most notable thing about her is the games that she's made. --PresN 02:23, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

This was removed again. 2A00:23C5:FE18:2700:714A:DFC6:1F2E:734E (talk) 06:35, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

One work missing

The article does not mention "Cell Phone Love Letter", a short kinetic novel that shares characters with "don't take it personally, babe, it just ain't your story" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.56.180.125 (talk) 19:32, 19 March 2015 (UTC)