Talk:Christopher Werner

Lutheran?

I have tagged "Lutheran" in the infobox because Muenster in the early 19th century was a mostly Roman Catholic city and because the article states that Werner was buried in an R.C. cemetery. Moonraker (talk) 23:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I see a new reference says "family was Lutheran", but which family, and does that definitely include Werner himself? Why an R.C. cemetery? People took these things very seriously then. Moonraker (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Found reference on page 32 here at the bottom of the page footnote 75. The footnote says: Werner’s name does not appear on any records pertaining to baptisms or marriage found in the Catholic Diocese Archives. It appears as though his family was Lutheran.

Put "Lutheran" in the PDF Search Box. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

May I suggest that isn't very certain and we should take out "Lutheran"? Clearly others (including that author) are doubtful. The odds are that Werner was probably a Roman Catholic himself. If his wife was of some other denomination, then his marriage would certainly be in another church and the children's baptisms might well be. Moonraker (talk) 00:30, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to go with the reference. I realize you don't want him to be "Lutheran", however it looks like he was. So as the reference says: Werner’s name does not appear on any records pertaining to baptisms or marriage found in the Catholic Diocese Archives. - it looks like he was NOT Catholic. The reference says his family was Lutheran. What others say it is doubful he was Lutheran? Do you have references that Werner was probably a Roman Catholic himself. Do you have references for If his wife was of some other denomination, then his marriage would certainly be in another church and the children's baptisms might well be? Sounds like Original Research as you are guessing on this, with no references.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly! I am guessing (just as you are) because we do not have enough facts to do anything else. But I am guessing here on the talk page and not in the article. Moonraker (talk) 01:31, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

This reference footnote 75 on the bottom of page 32 goes on to say: A book was found with Werner’s possessions, which is inscribed to his youngest daughter, Isabel Werner, for her “punctual attendance” at the Wentworth St. Lutheran Sunday School on May 11th, 1874. This suggests that near the end of Werner’s life the family was attending Lutheran services. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Footnote 75 comes from the text in the PDF document (Biographical information of Christopher Werner - A Thesis) that says: This was done despite his not being a member of the Catholic Church.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 00:53, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) No, Doug, I have no axe to grind except to emphasize that Wikipedia is based on reliable sources. We should not state anything as a fact which is unsupported by a reliable source and is (as in this case) merely based on guesswork. If you wanted to say in the text "It appears as though Werner's family in the US was not Roman Catholic", cited from that source, then that is fine, but this author jumps effortlessly from the fact that there is no evidence that it was a Roman Catholic family to suggesting it was "Lutheran". The thought process is hopeless. As to Werner's own religion, nothing is suggested, apart from the fact that he was buried in an RC cemetery. The claim "not being a member of the Catholic Church" seems to be mere guesswork, but even if that were stated in the article it would not show that he was not an RC or that he was a Lutheran. Better not to make any claim of knowing what his religion was. Moonraker (talk) 00:57, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

A daughter was attending a Lutheran Sunday school, that can be stated, too, if you wish, but it does not make Werner himself a Lutheran! Or, indeed, his daughter. Moonraker (talk) 01:02, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

So, apparently you are saying this is not a good reliable source? I have not found a more detailed biography on Werner. Do you know of one?--Doug Coldwell ^talk 01:11, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed I don't. The point about citing reliable sources is that you have to rely on what they actually say, and not on what you think can be inferred from them. If the source makes it clear that something is uncertain, then you cannot cite that source as demonstrating that what is merely possible (or even probable) is a fact. Moonraker (talk) 01:16, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The reference says: ''A book was found with Werner’s possessions, which is inscribed to his youngest daughter, Isabel Werner, for her “punctual attendance” at the Wentworth St. Lutheran Sunday School... Its pretty clear to me the source is saying the family went to Wentworth St. Lutheran Church. Nowhere does it suggest they are Roman Catholic. Maybe we should get a third opinion on this.....(?)--Doug Coldwell ^talk 01:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, dear. You say "Its pretty clear to me the source is saying the family went to Wentworth St. Lutheran Church." The words "Its pretty clear to me..." mean that you are making an inference from a different fact, and indeed the words "pretty clear" mean "almost clear". Can you not see that the source is not saying what you infer at all? It suggests no evidence on that quite different matter. There are all kinds of reasons why a child (whether Lutheran or not) might have gone to a Lutheran Sunday school. If a story is not to be corrupted, what we report as facts must be facts and not speculation. Moonraker (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm tired of this. WP:BAR I put in a footnote that explains the facts and the situation. Best regards. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 05:01, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

If you have a reference for the prevalence of Catholicism in Muenster at the time, you could put something into the footnote, as it is certainly a germaine fact, and might enlighten our readers. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 05:43, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what "I'm tired of this" means. The footnote makes the uncertainty clear, so I have edited "Lutheran" to "Perhaps Lutheran". No doubt I could find a reference for the religious make-up of Muenster in the 19th century, but I am not suggesting that this article is the place to debate circumstantial evidence of that kind. The source makes it clear that someone has tried to establish what Werner's religion was and has failed to do so: we can't really go any further than that without another source. Moonraker (talk) 08:00, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. 7&6=thirteen (☎) 22:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Mother?

I see the 1850 census reports Hannah Werner, aged 65. Does it give relationships and identify her as Werner's mother? I suppose she could also be an unmarried aunt or an aunt by marriage, but both seem unlikely. Moonraker (talk) 21:15, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have access to the 1850 Census for the next 30 days. However, from what I can remember it did NOT say specifically "mother" but just a member in the household. I would draw the conclusion that Hannah Werner would be the mother of our subject since he was 45 years old at the time - being 20 years less, just the right amount to be his mother as she would be 20 years old when he was born.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 21:35, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Religion again

In the infobox I have corrected "Resting place St. Laurence cemetery Magnolia, South Carolina" to "St. Laurence cemetery, Charleston, South Carolina" and I have also added a section on Werner's death and burial. That has thrown up the fact that his wife was buried with him and that they have the most prominent grave in the cemetery. Reviewing the earlier discussion, it seems to me that the few facts we have suggest that Werner was a lapsed Roman Catholic. As he was suffering from chronic hepatitis he had good time to take a serious decision on where he wanted to be buried. Was the graveyard of St Mary's Roman Catholic Church full? Moonraker (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Doug, thank you for the new citation. It seems to confirm my speculation. Moonraker (talk) 02:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Ciociola

Just a word of caution about this thesis, which I have been reading. It has a number of obvious misunderstandings and omissions which her supervisor should have picked up on. For instance, she says "In the early part of the 1800s, German citizens faced many hardships." In the early part of the 1800s there was no country called Germany and, obviously, no German citizenship. (See German Confederation.) In what follows this passage she goes on to give some views on a country called Germany. For instance, "Economically and socially, Germany faced depressions, food shortages, unemployment and high death rates. In addition, religious turmoil was also present. While Catholicism was present in the southern part of the country... a negative atmosphere for those following strict Lutheran beliefs", but she has clearly not spotted that there were precious few of those in Catholic Muenster, nor that when Werner was about ten Westphalia reverted into the control of Prussia, a Lutheran power. She refers repeatedly to "Germans", but little united them except language. In dealing with Werner, it does not strike her as a factor to explore that he grew up in the progressive, liberal, Kingdom of Westphalia, ruled by a brother of Napoleon and fighting on the side of France as part of the Confederation of the Rhine, bankrupted in 1812. Some of the sources Ciociola quotes are at best tangential: for instance, "Walhalla: The Garden of the Gods" is a local Lutheran pastor's view on a German-speaking settlement in South Carolina with no stated connection with Werner, not an authority for the religious condition of a country called "Germany" which was not a political reality. The whole paper has a veneer of academic credibility, given by an array of footnotes, but when you look beyond the surface it fails to impress. Moonraker (talk) 18:19, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

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