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Talk:Chrysler/Archive 4

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Latest comment: 8 years ago by HughD in topic Neutral point of view
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Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Imperial's reversion to model status under the Chrysler brand

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The article originally stated that Imperial was folded back under the Chrysler brand in 1973 (making it the Chrysler Imperial, again, as it had been prior to the 1955 model year). According to the book, "American Cars, 1960 to 1972", written by J. "Kelly" Flory, Jr., this change took place with the 1971 model year, making the 1970 Imperial the last as a stand-alone brand in that era. Mhrogers (talk) 19:18, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Removal of controversy section

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I recently removed the controversy section from the article. I'm not sure these pages should have a section called "controversy". WP seems to generally stay away from such headings as well as headings like "criticism". That said, the reason why I removed it was because the one item in that section seemed of very marginal significance given the history of Chrysler (founded ~90 years ago and grew to become one of the largest companies in the world). I've posted on several car company talk pages asking what criteria should be used before a controversy is considered significant enough to exist on an article page. For example the Ford Pinto controversies or the GM Corvair controversies seem significant enough for inclusion (the Pinto case currently isn't on the Ford page) because they were either large in scope, deaths were attributed to them, or the significantly changed the legal or public perception landscape regarding automobiles. I've started a Automotive project page conversation about it here [1] Springee (talk) 21:05, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 February 2016

Latest comment: 8 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I would suggest adding that Fiat bought a major stake in Chrysler July 2011 and that it is own by an Italian base company. This page indicates that it is an American car company. They manufacture cars in America but it is in fact an Italian car company. Colobull (talk) 21:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

  Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format.
The lede of the article already says it is owned by Fiat. RudolfRed (talk) 21:34, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 26 February 2016

Latest comment: 8 years ago10 comments9 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved Mike Cline (talk) 13:35, 7 March 2016 (UTC)


Chrysler → FCA US LLC – Chrysler group changed its name. FoxNewsChannelFan (talk) 15:57, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Strong oppose this new title means nothing to people - acronyms are not a good thing for titles . We did not move this every other time because Chrysler is still the most common name. Cant fix copy and paste move...will need help here. -- Moxy (talk) 17:16, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
I have left "FoxNewsChannelFan" a note about moves on his talk page...best that problem is talked about in personal space. We can help him there. -- Moxy (talk) 17:55, 26 February 2016 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Propose removing NPOV tag from article

Latest comment: 8 years ago10 comments4 people in discussion

The NPOV tag on the article is not supported by legitimate concerns on the talk page. A single editor WP:NOTGETTINGIT doesn't warrant a NPOV tag. Springee (talk) 18:08, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

May I respectfully ask that rather than start a new talk page thread for a vote you return to the thread above, the one linked to from the POV article tag, and there engage in dialog toward addressing the neutrality of this article? The POV tag asks you not to remove it until the neutrality issues are resolved. A colleague asked you a question at near the end of the above thread to which you have yet to respond. Neutrality is not negotiable; neutrality is not subject to a local consensus. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:17, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Removed. HughD is the only editor who supported the tag or the claims of NPOV. Since no other editor has supported the claim the tag is removed by consensus. If he feels a NPOV tag is warranted he should get at least one other supporting editor before restoration. I would remind HughD that just because you feel there is an issue doesn't mean others agree and the use of the tag is subject to group consensus. I would suggest you open a NPOV discussion if you feel that people here aren't giving your POV the weight you think it deserves. Springee (talk) 00:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

You are invited to join the discussion of the neutrality of this article in the above thread. As per the clear instructions in the POV article hat, please do not remove the POV article hat until the neutrality issues are resolved. Please do not edit war to remove the POV article hat. Edit warring over a POV article hat is particularly abhorrent form of edit warring. Thank you in advance for your commitment to our project's pillar of neutrality. Hugh (talk) 00:44, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
HughD, you have revenge tagged this article because it isn't going your way. Simply claiming their is a NPOV issue doesn't make it so, especially when NO other editors support your POV.
Kevjgav, Dennis Bratland, Kennethaw88, Mike Cline, Drmies, Moxy, As recent editors to this page I'm seeking editorial input. HughD contends that the removal of content from the article here [2], [3], [4] and discussed on the talk page here [5] constitutes a NPOV issue and thus justifies placing a NPOV tag on the article page. Do you agree that the article should be tagged? Do you have opinions on the content HughD proposes to add to the article? Thank you. Springee (talk) 01:09, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
May I respectfully ask, how did you select these colleagues for notification? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 01:19, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
Also pinging wbm1058, RudolfRed, FoxNewsChannelFan. The original list was all Talk Page editors through February (though I missed FoxNewsChannelFan and wbm1058). I've now extended the list to all 2016 Talk Page editors. Springee (talk) 01:35, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
  • Support — Time and again I see WP editors treating articles about companies or their products like WP:BLPs, showing excessive caution in trying to protect the subject from the slightest hint of criticism if it doesn't meet some arbitrary standard. We do not need to be that vigilant about protecting the image of a car or a car company. We're not risking real-world harm to a living person. This kind of information is well-sourced and widely-publicized. Yes, we agree that many recalls are UNDUE and ROUTINE, but only in the sense that a lot of articles get too crufty with mentions of routine recalls, and lacking the context for how common recalls are, it can kind of look bad if we spend too much time on one. Kind of -- but there are many, many more important things. Even if this is a recall that we might prefer to not mention, the paragraph does not throw off the whole article's neutrality. At most an inline or section tag could be added, and even then, there's not really a need because the discussion is happening right here.

    Warning readers the article is not neutral just leaves them scratching their heads for no good reason. And we don't need to be so aggressively deletionist about the history and facts related to cars. It's a matter of polishing the article to perfection, not a glaring flaw. Maybe it should be left alone until such time at it gets nominated for GA so we can work on more important things? --Dennis Bratland (talk) 02:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Non-notable recall

Latest comment: 8 years ago40 comments5 people in discussion

An editor recently added a brake booster recall section to the page [6]. This was a reversion of a removal of the material by me [7]. Per WP:Project Automobile discussion here [8], this is not an encyclopedic recall. The limitation of recalls to only the most notable was supported by the following editors (notified due to involvement in the discussion): CtrlXctrlV, Dennis Brown, Dennis Bratland, OSX, TREKphiler, Greglocock. Springee (talk) 15:37, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

I think you might be mistaken. These are mainstream media, and they are not routine coverage. They have named reporters quoting multiple sources, referencing past events in the timeline of the story. No severe crashes or deaths are mentioned, but over 800,000 vehicles were recalled and it was a safety issue. Maybe a close one, but I would probably allow it. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 16:02, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
My understanding of the coverage in the WP article should be limited to only the largest or most significant recalls. So for Ford it would be things like the Pinto fuel system, the Firestone tire recall, probably the cruise control recall. Toyota would be the unintended acceleration related recalls. GM in recent times would be the ignition switch. Perhaps others. When looking at this Chrysler recall I can't see it coming close to any of those Ford, GM or Toyota examples. This is the sort of recall that has never made it to any of the infamous recall lists (not that those are the best indicator). Springee (talk) 16:20, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Agree, you are mistaken. Here is the proposal from the project talk page archive:

Proposal:recalls are mentioned in articles when they have received widespread attention in the MSM. This does not include single MSM articles mentioning them as they are announced.

This is an entirely non-controversial, straight-forward application of our due weight policy to automobile recalls. As an experienced editor, you well understand coverage in Wikipedia is proportional to coverage in reliable sources, and in any case a Wiki Project may not adopt a local over-ride of our project's core policy. Please note it does not say "only the most notable" may be included or "no recalls may be included." "Only the largest" or "only the most significant" or "only the most notable" would limit Wikipedia coverage to one recall regardless of coverage in reliable sources which is clearly incorrect. Regarding your recent section blanking of the "Product recalls" section of this article, is it your position that our article should reflect that Chrysler has had no noteworthy recalls? Did you try even the most cursory search before your section blanking? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:27, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
HughD, I'm sorry you have brought your edit warring to this article. So you are claiming that this recall, a recall that has been tied to no injuries, would be as notable as recalls like the Pinto fuel tank recall or the Toyota unintended acceleration recall. Plenty of recalls have been covered at the time in mainstream news sources when they occurred. However, most of those (including this Chrysler recall) are forgotten after the fact. To quote the Project Automobile discussion, I respectfully recommend the application of common sense. Don't ban mention of recalls, but only mention the ones that are critical. Big ones, ones that hit the headlines, ones that involve high profile litigations.... That's probably only 1% or 2% of all the recalls that happen. But please let's avoid attempting to dream up "one size fits all rules" where they're not needed and where they can too easily become an excuse for unproductive p**sing contests. HughD sadly came here to make this a p**sing contest. Springee (talk) 16:49, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Please focus on content WP:FOC. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
HughD, at least the second recall you added may be significant enough for inclusion. Again, we should use judgement when deciding which recalls will really be notable in 20 years. The first one you restored as part of a wikihounding effort is very unlikely to make it to any long term list. We should be careful about including recent recalls just because they were recent. Springee (talk) 18:41, 18 March 2016(UTC) Edit HughD, please read your sources more carefully before editing the article. Your edit was very sloppy. First, your edit reads like the recall was 1.7 million vehicles related to airbags. The articles you added actually referred to several recalls at once. The airbag recall was ~1.1 million vehicles. WP is WP:NOTNEWS and we should not just repost headlines. Second, the three sources say no fatalities, not two fatalities. Why did you put two fatalities in the article? Again, since there were no deaths this seems like a case of you dumping dirt into the article. Please save that for your Koch family and Tea Party articles, not here. Springee (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

The guidelines for inclusion of vehicle recalls should be significant enough to shape the product, change the business strategy of the automaker, etc. There are numerous recalls conducted on a regular basis. They are typically not encyclopedic in nature. Having it reported in the general media does not signify a recall's notability for an encyclopedia article. For example, last month's recall by Toyota (one of countless problems encountered by this automaker) involves almost 2.87 million cars (see here) and it has been reported by major media worldwide. However, even this recall does not rise to the level as Toyota's huge historic product defects, and thus this latest recall is not included as part of WP's article on Toyota. Similarly, Chrysler's brake booster recall is not noteworthy for an article about the history of this company. Just because a recall is noted by The New York Times, does not make it newsworthy for inclusion an encyclopedia article. Please notice that there is a major distinction between serving as a news report and that of an encyclopedia. CZmarlin (talk) 20:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

CZmarlin, thanks for removing the second recall article (the one that incorrectly stated 2 fatalities). If you would like to remove the brake booster per talk page consensus I would appreciate it (I've removed it twice today which is once too many). Springee (talk) 20:32, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The previous consensus that received unanimous support said nothing about "change the business strategy". That's a novel criterion we haven't discussed before. I wouldn't use an undefined word like "unencyclopedic" here (or anywhere), since nobody can say what that word actually means. Instead, we have WP:UNDUE and WP:ROUTINE to guide us. I can't find any objective reason to say this addition is routine; it seems to be a bit more significant than that, if only just a bit. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 22:34, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
Dennis Bratland, Thank you for pointing out the guidelines for the weight that should be provided to certain recalls. Given the hundreds of recalls instituted by automakers, there seems to be not even that small "bit" more significance of these in the overall history and operations of Chrysler. I used the example of a recall contributing to a "change in business strategy" after reviewing references to the recalls mentioned in several WP articles about automakers including Toyota and General Motors. These firms were embroiled in recalls that altered their business operations, and they are dully described. The vast majority of automaker articles do not contain sections or list their recalls --- even if they caused numerous fatalities. For example, the Ford article does not mention any notable recalls, although several have become "textbook" cases such as the Firestone and Ford controversy that not only changed business strategies among the involved firms, but also spawned new Federal safety legislation. CZmarlin (talk) 23:18, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I can see Dennis's view that the project page discussion did not set a rigid standard for notability. That said, I think we can also agree that when you consider the ~100 year life of the Chrysler organization, these recent recalls aren't noteworthy. As a rough guide to notable recalls we could use any number of "top 10 worst recall" type lists. I'm not suggesting that such lists should be the arbiter of notable recall but if no list has mentioned it then perhaps it's not worth noting. Recalls for large numbers of cars seem more and more common as I think the NHTSA has become more stringent and more and more cars end up using the same parts (GM ignition recall). Certainly a recall that ends up before Congress is probably notable but one that just makes it to the auto section of several papers, even national ones, isn't. Perhaps a few more of the editors who were involved in the project page discussion can weigh in. Springee (talk) 01:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Of course our project has a due weight policy WP:DUE. If you have additional criteria to add may I respectfully suggest policy talk. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 01:48, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
WP:NOTNEWS. If you think this material should be in the article explain how and why these recalls are going to be notable in 30+ years. So far we have two editors against, one on the fence and you. Springee (talk) 02:03, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
May I respectfully ask, what is your basis in policy or guideline for the "30+ years" criteria you feel? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:14, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
A more realistic question is can you respectfully ask. I suspect the answer is no. Springee (talk) 17:14, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

As it stands as of mid-day on March 19, about 20% of all the references in this article - that is an overview of the Chrysler company (its history, products, and worldwide operations) - pertain exclusively to the vehicle recalls during 2014 and 2015. That is far beyond any reasonable measure of WP:WEIGHT and importance to this topic. Contrast this to total lack of mentioning any product recall campaign in the Ford article. Likewise, these is not a word about foot dragging by [Honda]] and other automakers in the massive "killer" airbag recall. Moreover, the information about the Chrysler recalls is designed to overstate the problem and fines. For example, NHTSA imposed $35 million on General Motors for failing to recall cars with faulty ignition switches for a decade, despite knowing there was a problem with the switches, because that amount was the maximum the safety regulator could impose in 2014. As a result, the law was changed by the U.S. Congress. Since then, the largest civil penalty in NHTSA's history was not on Chrysler, but the $200 million imposed on Takata for violating the U.S. Motor Vehicle Safety Act. Moreover, in March 2014, Toyota agreed to pay a fine of $1.2 billion for concealing information and misleading the public about the safety issues behind the recalls on Toyota and Lexus vehicles affected by unintended acceleration. The Chrysler recalls are not nearly as notable in comparison. In short, there is WP:UNDUE emphasis for these rather "ordinary" recalls by Chrysler. The entire section is a massive collection of WP:NOTNEWS that is presented in a way that violates WP:IMPARTIAL guidelines. If User:HughD wishes to campaign against automobile recalls, then such information could go into the Product recall article or a separate Automotive recall list that could also link separate articles that include the 2009–11 Toyota vehicle recalls and the Firestone and Ford tire controversy. Unfortunately, User:HughD has just added a new "Reception" section that attempts to "document" the unsuitability of all Chrysler products - even though only the most recent two years are discussed from among the company's almost 100 year history. That is quite a leap of judgement. CZmarlin (talk) 18:14, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Please see WP:OTHERSTUFF. Your collaboration on other articles, regarding neutrality with respect to reliable sources, would be welcome. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
By convention on Wikipedia, in historical contexts "largest" is assumed to read "at that time" so that we may avoid asking our readers to read "at that time" everywhere. Thank you for your comments. Hugh (talk) 18:35, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Dear User:HughD, Please note that context matters in an encyclopedia. There is no validity to your claim that WP's convention is to assume that readers will know that "largest" also means as "at the time". The specific guideline for this is spelled out in WP:ASOF. It states that "information that is valid only at a specific moment in history, such as population statistics and current events" must be appropriately tagged with "as of" so that there are no assumptions. Please also recall that "the community has decided not to document every verifiable fact and accordingly has established notability guidelines". It is important that contributors "exercise judgement when determining what should be included". Specifically the WP:BALASPS policy, which your edits do not conform, is unambiguous:
"An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject. For example, discussion of isolated events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic. This is a concern especially in relation to recent events that may be in the news."
Your cooperation in keeping to WP guidelines will be appreciated. Thanks, CZmarlin (talk) 19:53, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
  Done "at the time" added. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 20:00, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
The contended content is very obviously due weight; multiple noteworthy highly reliable sources for the contended content include The New York Times, The Washington Post, USA Today, Bloomberg Businessweek, the International Business Times, CNN, BBC News, CBS News, The Wall Street Journal, Reuters, and the Associated Press. Additional noteworthy highly reliable sources are available upon request. Hugh (talk) 20:11, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
It is unfortunate that you claim that you have "done" the corrections to your contributions. Please study the guidelines because they specifically state: "events, criticisms, or news reports about a subject may be verifiable and impartial, but still disproportionate to their overall significance to the article topic" and remove the material that is disproportionate to the overall outline of the history, organization, and products of this automaker. The recalls of 2014 and 2015 are not notable for this article, as are your "reception" additions. WP articles are not a directory or a buyer's guide with product reviews. Moreover, your attempt to claim that other editors are violating the three revert policy and "vandalizing" this article are cynical and mean-spirited. CZmarlin (talk) 20:24, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
As an experienced editor, you well understand coverage in Wikipedia is proportional to coverage in reliable sources, not proportional to a personal evaluation of what topics are important and which are not. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 20:39, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, you have objected to the inclusion of the "Recalls" and "Reception" subsections, and you have cited policies WP:DUE, WP:IMPARTIAL, and WP:BALASPS, thank you; however, I believe you are misapplying these policies. May I respectfully ask you, is your interpretation of these policies that a Wikipedia article may include nothing negative, critical, or unflattering about its subject? Outside of the "Recalls" and "Reception" subsections, might I ask you to please identify one sentence that you might consider critical or unflattering to Chrysler? Re-reading the article, I can't find anything, outside of "Recalls" or "Reception," that a major stockholder or Chrysler executive might take even mild exception to. Is all of reliable sources free of critical opinions or unflattering events in the story of Chrysler? In other words, do you think the article as a whole is neutral with respect to reliable sources? Do you believe the long lifespan of a corporation means that any transitory critical opinions or unflattering events in any one year are to be excluded from our article? What do you think? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 23:42, 19 March 2016 (UTC) CZmarlin, I would appreciate your thoughts on these questions. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:36, 20 March 2016 (UTC)


  • I have removed HughD's BOLD addition of recalls and reception as well as the lead entry. It is clear there is an on going debate about the merit of this material and if it has sufficient weight to be part of this article about Chrysler. Current consensus is against with only HughD pushing for inclusion. Given the material is questionable in a subsection it clearly should not go into the lead. The reception section also is highly questionable since it reflects only a current snapshot of the products. Wikipedia is encyclopedic, not news. Rather than continuing a pattern of disruptive editing, the correct next steps if HughD feels this material should be included would be the various content dispute resolution options including RfC, 3rd opinions and noticeboards. HughD is familiar with all these options and should use them rather than restoring material that is currently 3:1 editors against. Springee (talk) 00:50, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:Don't revert due solely to "no consensus" WP:DRNC. Thank you.Hugh (talk) 15:34, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Well it's a good thing that wasn't the material was removed. Springee (talk) 19:11, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

"Recalls" section blanking

Concerned editors are here asked to please clearly explain, with reference to policy and guideline, how it is remotely possible that, contrary to vast noteworthy reliable sources, Chrysler has had no noteworthy recalls. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 21:31, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for asking about this issue in the talk pages for this article. You seem intent to stretch the "notability" guideline to keep adding recalls that are not significant to the almost 100 year history of this automaker. WP articles are not for news reposting for every event or recall. Similarly, you will notice that only the most significant product recalls are included in articles about other companies. Most auto manufacturers have no mention of recalls, even though their cars have multiple actions involving numerous issues each year. For example, the General Motors WP article includes only the ignition switch, although that company has had many product recalls affecting millions of vehicles. The Toyota article only includes those that involved Congressional Hearings, impacted sales and reputation, as well as cost the company billions of dollars. In other words, just because a recall is covered by multiple media sources they do not mean they should be included in the articles about the automaker. An encyclopedia is not a collection of all information.
Moreover, please do not keep adding material under discussion into the article until the issue of your contributions is fully resolved here. Until this is decided to include, on the basis of WP:NOTNEWSPAPER guidelines, your contribution will be removed. CZmarlin (talk) 22:05, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
The "Recalls" subsection was added to this article in November, 2014 and section blanked without discussion on March 14, 2106. The burden is on concerned editors to defend the section blanking by convincing their colleagues, with specific reference to the due weight policies of our project, that our article should reflect their unique point of view that Chrysler has had no noteworthy recalls. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 22:24, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
I'm going to directly address this disingenuous claim in particular because the only reason why HughD is here is because he was searching through my edit history. The "blanking" I am accused of was the removal of a two sentence paragraph that was the entire section. As others on this talk page have said the brake booster recall was not notable enough for inclusion in the article. Since it was the ONLY item in the recall sub-section, the subsection went with the two sentences. I assume HughD doesn't support keeping empty sections. The "no discussion" isn't really true either. I used a two sentence edit tag to explain why the two sentence paragraph was undue. I do not believe the article shouldn't have a "recall" section, only that only recalls that are WP:DUE should be included. Chrysler as an organization is almost 100 years old. There are literally thousands, likely hundreds of thousands of RS articles about the company. Using a key word search to find ten recent articles doesn't mean they are due for inclusion in the WP article. Springee (talk) 03:44, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
Article content can be edited no matter when the initial content was contributed. This does not change the burden of proof. This does not require proving a negative statement that you have made. In other words, inability to disprove your claim of no noteworthy recalls does not prove that these particular recalls belong in an encyclopedia article that provides an outline of Chrysler's history and major operations. Moreover, all editors are subject to the three revert rule. Cheers - CZmarlin (talk) 22:38, 18 March 2016 (UTC)
HughD, please stop engaging in edit warring. Springee (talk) 01:29, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
@CZmarlin and Springee I stumbled upon Ford Pinto being protected due to edit warring and then looked at this article and noticed that it's only semi-protected. Then I looked at the edit history and noticed there have been more edits by HughD since the "please stop engaging in edit warring" message. I know that he has been edit warring with both of you from viewing the edit history of the Chrysler and Ford Pinto articles. Just thought I'd keep you two up to date on these edit wars.--Kevjgav (talk) 08:51, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
@CZmarlin and Springee I just left a message regarding this on the user's talk page using the same words you two have been using.--Kevjgav (talk) 09:15, 19 March 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for the notice. An edit warring ANI has been opened [9]. Please feel free to comment there as well as here. I think it is clear that HughD is warring given that he was continuing to add disputed material while it was being discussed and after it had been removed by two editors. Springee (talk) 17:05, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

Proposed standard for inclusion

In reviewing the Automotive Project archived discussion on notable recalls[10] I get the impression the discussion was really focused on the notability of recalls as it relates to a particular model. Note the example is the Ford Falcon AU, not Ford Motor Company. In thinking about what level of recall or controversy would be significant enough for inclusion in the main company's article I would propose only including topics which are notable enough to be a stand alone article. That doesn't mean a stand alone article is required but that such an article would withstand an AFD review of notability. For example, the Ford-Firestone tire controversy and recall has a stand alone page[11] and thus I think it would be significant enough for inclusion at Ford Motor Company. The large number of Focus recalls, while covered in mainstream news, would not. When dealing with a topic as large and complex as a major car company it would seem that almost any section of the main article should have enough available content to become a sub-article in and of itself. Springee (talk) 04:04, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

"only including topics which are notable enough to be a stand alone article" Our project has a due weight policy WP:DUE. Summarizing, it is coverage in reliable sources that is determinative, not coverage in other Wikipedia articles; this is fundamental and accepted by all Wikipedia editors. Neutrality with respect to reliable sources is a pillar of our project and is not negotiable. Please take your ideas to policy talk for consideration by the community if you wish. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 13:33, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
That is an interesting idea. So you want to include material that was covered in just a few articles. Google shows 3.5 million news stories about Chrysler. So, if we generously say you have 50 articles, 50/3500000=0.001429% of the article. I guess we can round that one off to zero. Thanks for your repetitive suggestion! Springee (talk) 13:54, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

Neutral point of view

Latest comment: 8 years ago12 comments3 people in discussion

The article is not neutral with respect to reliable sources. The article includes no facts or events which might be considered unflattering to Chrysler, although numerous noteworthy unflattering facts and events are manifest in multiple noteworthy reliable sources. The article includes no opinions on Chrysler or assessments of Chrysler, although numerous noteworthy opinions and assessments are manifest in multiple noteworthy reliable sources WP:YESPOV.

Colleagues indulging in persistent pointed section blanking are kindly requested to propose alternative summarizations of noteworthy reliable sources.

Safety

On July 26, 2015, the National Highway and Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) levied a $150 million fine on Chrysler for failing to complete 23 safety recalls on more than 11 million vehicles, the largest fine ever imposed by the NHTSA at the time. The NHTSA established an independent monitor on Chrysler. Chrysler agreed to buy back up to 500,000 vehicles with defects which could result in a loss of control by the driver, the largest buy-back in NHTSA history. The head of the NHTSA said in a press release that “Fiat Chrysler’s pattern of poor performance put millions of its customers, and the driving public, at risk.” On December 10, 2015, the NHTSA fined Chrysler $70 million for failure to submit legally required death and injury data.

The neutral level of coverage of Chrysler safety issues and the regulatory response is not none. The following noteworthy reliable sources, among others, need to summarized in the article to further neutrality:

  • Vlasic, Bill (July 26, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler Gets Record $105 Million Fine for Safety Issues". The New York Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. In their most aggressive crackdown yet on auto safety, federal regulators on Sunday levied a record penalty of $105 million against Fiat Chrysler Automobiles for failing to complete 23 safety recalls covering more than 11 million vehicles. The civil penalty is the largest ever imposed by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration on an automaker for recall violations...
  • Spector, Mike (July 27, 2015). "Record Fine for Fiat Chrysler; Settlement assesses $105 million for lapses involving recalls, sets up independent monitor". The Wall Street Journal. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Federal regulators hit Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV with a record $105 million fine for recall lapses covering millions of vehicles, adding to mounting scrutiny of the auto maker's safety practices.
  • Plungis, Jeff (July 26, 2015). "NHTSA Says Fiat Chrysler to Pay $105 Million Fine, Buy Back Some Vehicles". Bloomberg Businessweek. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV agreed to a record $105 million penalty following a U.S. Department of Transportation investigation into whether the company delayed acting on safety defects on light trucks and cars. Fiat Chrysler also agreed to buy back more than a half-million vehicles -- mostly Ram pickups -- whose defective suspension parts could cause a loss of control, the U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said in a statement Sunday.
  • "Fiat Chrysler hit with record $105 million fine". CBS News. July 27, 2015. Fiat Chrysler is preparing to pay a record fine of $105 million, the largest ever imposed by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, for mishandling safety recalls on millions of vehicles. The settlement also forces the car maker to repurchase more than half a million Ram pickup trucks built between 2008 and 2012 because defective steering parts can cause them to lose control. {{cite news}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help)
  • Snavely, Brent (July 27, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler forced into biggest vehicle buyback ever". USA Today. Detroit Free Press. Retrieved March 18, 2016. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said Monday it imposed the largest vehicle buyback program in its history on Fiat Chrysler Automobiles because the automaker has yet to fix nearly 200,000 pickup trucks and SUVs it recalled in 2013.
  • Pishdadian, Erica (July 26, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler Cited By NHTSA, Agrees To Pay $105M Fine For Faulty Recall Procedures". International Business Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. "Fiat Chrysler's pattern of poor performance put millions of its customers, and the driving public, at risk," said NHTSA Administrator Mark Rosekind in the press release.
  • "Fiat Chrysler hit with record fine by US regulators". BBC News. July 27, 2015. Retrieved March 18, 2016. "Fiat Chrysler's pattern of poor performance put millions of its customers, and the driving public, at risk," NHTSA administrator Mark Rosekind said.
  • "Fiat Chrysler hit with $70 million federal fine for safety reporting failures". The Washington Post. December 10, 2015. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler has been hit with a $70 million federal fine for failing the submit legally required safety data to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration...Fiat Chrysler set a record this year in recalling 11 million vehicles in the United States, a total of 38 different recalls.
  • Ivory, Danielle (December 10, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler Is Fined and Agrees to Fix Safety Reporting System". The New York Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. As part of a $70 million settlement with federal regulators, Fiat Chrysler said on Thursday that it would overhaul its operations to ensure disclosure of deaths and injuries tied to potential defects in its vehicles. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which announced the settlement and fine, said the automaker had failed in a significant way to make some reports over more than a decade.
  • Isidore, Chris; Marsh, Rene (December 10, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler hit with $70 million safety fine". CNN. Retrieved March 18, 2016. The nation's auto safety regulator hit Fiat Chrysler with a $70 million fine Thursday for failing to report safety information about crashes. As a result, accidents in which people were killed and injured were not investigated by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. Automakers are required to report information about accidents to NHTSA so that regulators and automakers can determine if a vehicle has a defect that needs to be repaired through a recall.

Recalls

In April 2014, Chrysler recalled brake boosters from 867,795 Dodge Durango and Jeep Grand Cherokee vehicles manufactured in the years 2011-2014 stating that, "A brake booster's center shell may corrode and allow water to get inside, which could freeze and limit the braking ability of the vehicle, increasing the risk of a crash."

Between 2012 and 2015, Chrysler recalled over 1.8 million US vehicles to address a chronic problem with injuries resulting from inadvertent air bag deployment. On September 10, 2015, Chrysler issued three notices regarding air bag and steering problems that recalled about 1.7 million Ram pick-up trucks. Chrysler said they were aware of two injuries related to a defect in which a short circuit in the steering column deployed an air bag without a crash. Weeks later, Chrysler cited seven injuries in a recall of 316,000 2003 Jeep Liberty and 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokees to address the air bag issues. On February 4, 2016, Fiat Chrysler cited "potentially related" minor injuries in an announced recall of about 112,000 2008 and 2009 Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town and Country minivans and 2009 Dodge Journey and Volkswagen Routans, to address a problem with the failure of air bags to deploy in a crash or inadvertent air bag deployment.

In 2015, Chrysler recalled a record 11 million vehicles in 38 different recalls.

The neutral level of coverage of Chrysler recalls is not none. The following noteworthy reliable sources, among others, need to summarized in the article to further neutrality:

  • Read, Richard (April 2, 2014). "2011-2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee, Dodge Durango Recalled For Brake Flaws". The Washington Post. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Chrysler has issued a second recall for the Grand Cherokee and Durango, which includes vehicles from the 2011-2014 model years. As with the previous recall, this one is designed to fix brake-pedal feel
  • Meier, Fred; Snider, Mike (April 2, 2014). "Chrysler recalling Jeep, Dodge SUVs for brakes". USA Today. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Chrysler on Wednesday made a second, much larger recall in a month over a brake defect in Jeep Grand Cherokees and Dodge Durangos. The current recall covers 867,795 vehicles worldwide of Chrysler's 2011 to 2014 model-year Grand Cherokees and Durangos, according to documents posted on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website. Brake booster corrosion in these vehicles can let water to get inside booster, which can freeze and impair braking capability.
  • Ebhardt, Tommaso (April 2, 2014). "Chrysler Recalls 867,795 SUVs Worldwide for Brake System". Bloomberg Businessweek. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Chrysler Group LLC is recalling 867,795 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango sport-utility vehicles to install a shield to protect brake boosters from water corrosion.
  • Jensen, Christopher (April 3, 2014). "Chrysler Is Recalling Two S.U.V.s". The New York Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Chrysler is recalling more than 850,000 sport utility vehicles because of a possible braking problem. The recall covers the 2011 to 2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee and Dodge Durango models, including about 644,000 in the United States.
  • Jensen, Christopher (October 30, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler Recalls More Vehicles for Airbag Defect". The New York Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler has been quietly grappling with a different chronic airbag problem: Since 2012, it has now recalled 1.8 million vehicles in the United States because its airbags may deploy without an accident...On Friday, it issued the most recent recall, for almost 316,000 2003 Jeep Liberty and 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee models, including 284,000 in the United States. The automaker said it was aware of seven injuries, including one concussion, with the others involving scrapes or bruises
  • Jensen, Christopher (September 10, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler Recalls Nearly 1.7 Million Ram Pickups". The New York Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler is recalling almost 1.7 million Ram pickup trucks over airbag or steering problems, the automaker said on Thursday...Of the three recall notices, the largest covers about a million vehicles in the United States in which a wiring harness in the steering column could short-circuit, causing the driver's airbag to deploy without a crash. The automaker said it was aware of two reports of injuries related to the defect.
  • Young, Angelo (September 10, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler Automobiles Recalls 1.7M Pickup Trucks, Including Ram 1500, Mostly To Ensure Driver's Airbags Don't Deploy Unexpectedly". International Business Times. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles (FCA) announced Thursday three separate recalls covering about 1.7 million Ram trucks, mostly to check or fix a wiring issue that could cause the driver's side airbag to deploy inadvertently.
  • Snavely, Brent (September 10, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler recalls nearly 1.7 million Ram pickup trucks". USA Today. Detroit Free Press. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles said today it is recalling nearly 1.7 million recent-model Ram pickups to check or repair wiring harnesses, airbags and steering components that may be faulty.
  • Wattles, Jackie (September 10, 2015). "Fiat Chrysler recalls 1.7 million Ram trucks". CNN. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler is recalling more than 1.7 million trucks for steering wheel and airbag issues, the company said Thursday. The recall includes 1.3 million Ram trucks that may have faulty steering wheel wiring, which could cause the driver-side airbag to deploy. It involves Ram models 1500, 2500, 3500 from 2012 to 2014. Fiat Chrysler (FCAM) said in a statement that there have been two injuries connected to that issue.
  • "Fiat Chrysler to recall 1.7 million trucks; new food safety rules issued". The Washington Post. Associated Press. September 10, 2015. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler is recalling more than 1.7 million trucks to fix problems with air bags and welds in the steering system.
  • Read, Richard (October 30, 2015). "Jeep Grand Cherokee, Jeep Liberty, Dodge Journey Recalled: 757,000 Vehicles Affected". The Washington Post. Retrieved March 18, 2016. The 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee and 2003 Jeep Liberty may suffer from an electrical problem that could cause airbags and other safety systems to deploy without warning...
  • Bomey, Nathan (October 30, 2015). "Inadvertent airbag deployment prompts Fiat Chrysler recall". USA Today. Retrieved March 18, 2016. The recall involving the airbag problem affects 351,989 units of the 2003 Jeep Liberty and 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee sport-utility vehicles, including 284,089 in the U.S.
  • "Fiat Chrysler recalls about 900,000 SUVs to fix airbags, brakes". Reuters. October 30, 2015. Retrieved March 18, 2016. Fiat Chrysler Automobiles said it was recalling nearly 900,000 vehicles around the world to fix issues related to airbag deployment and anti-lock braking systems. The company said it was recalling 284,089 model-year 2003 Jeep Liberty and 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokees SUVs in the United States to replace some components linked to the deployment of airbags. The company said it was aware of seven injuries related to the problem but no accidents.
  • Tabuchi, Hiroko; Jensen, Christopher (February 4, 2016). "Yet Another Airbag Recall Will Affect Five Million". The New York Times. On Thursday, Fiat Chrysler said it would recall about 112,000 2008-9 Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town & Country minivans, as well as the 2009 Dodge Journey and Volkswagen Routan, which the automaker made for Volkswagen. It said it was aware of "seven potentially related injuries, all minor."
  • "Automakers to recall 5M vehicles for another air bag problem". Detriot Free Press. Associated Press. February 4, 2016. Retrieved March 18, 2016. On Thursday, Fiat Chrysler announced the recall of 112,000 2009 Dodge Journeys and 2008 and 2009 Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town & Country minivans for the same problem. The Fiat Chrysler recall also includes the 2009 Volkswagen Routan minivan, which was made by FCA.

Reception

Chrysler has performed poorly in Consumer Reports annual reliability ratings. In 2015 Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, and Fiat finished at or near the bottom in the Consumer Reports 2015 Annual Auto Reliability Survey, and in 2016 Dodge, Chrysler, Jeep, and Fiat were ranked at or near the bottom. All Fiat Chrysler brands finished in the bottom third of Consumer Reports' 2016 annual Automotive Brand Report Card, citing "poor reliability and sub-par performance in our testing." Fiat Chrysler brands ranked at the bottom of the 2015 J. D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study.

The neutral level of coverage of reviews, surveys, opinions, reception, and evaluations of Chrysler is not none. The following noteworthy reliable sources, among others, need to summarized in the article to further neutrality:

Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:20, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

You have done a partial dump of news stories related to Chrysler vehicles. Nevertheless, these do not prove the "lack of neutrality" in an article about the outline of the history, organization, and products over the almost 100 years of this automaker. The existence of media reports about various recalls does not indicate their weight in the overall background of this company. All automakers have been involved in quality problems and recalls of cars that involve millions of units. A rough measure of the number of news sources that describe them can be shown by conducting a sample using Google News search:
  • "Toyota recalls" = About 38,200 results
  • "Ford recalls" = About 19,000 results
  • "Honda recalls" = About 7,410 results
  • "Chrysler recalls" = About 4,880 results
  • "Mercedes Benz recalls" = About 4,560 results
Even though other automakers have done through serious recalls involving major safety problems with numerous fatalities that have even become textbook cases in management and ethics (such as Ford and Honda), these is no mention of them on the Ford or Honda WP articles. In other words, your bias is evident here by placing so much weight to media reports about Chrysler. CZmarlin (talk) 17:39, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, the very definition of our project's due weight policy is weight relative to media reports WP:DUE. May I respectfully observe that arguments in a content dispute based on the state of other articles are not usually effective on Wikipedia WP:OTHERSTUFF; however, may I remark somewhat off-topic here in this thread on this article talk page that I look forward to collaborating with you and others on improving coverage in our project of the safety and regulatory record, and on opinions, evaluations and reviews, of automakers. As far as the current neutrality of this article, which after persistent section blanking is as of this post lacking safety, "Recall" and "Reception" coverage, may I respectfully ask you to please identify one sentence in the current article which might be read as unflattering or critical of the subject of the article? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 17:57, 20 March 2016 (UTC) CZmarlin, I would please like your thoughts on this question. Thanks. Hugh (talk) 18:51, 20 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, you have cited WP:IMPARTIAL; is it your interpretation of policy that all article content must be neutral? Rephrasing, may a Wikipedia article include noteworthy events or opinions about a subject, even if those events or opinions are negative or unflattering to the subject? Thank you for your reply. Hugh (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, have noteworthy reliable sources had anything to say about Chrysler's reliability? How would you summarize what noteworthy reliable sources have had to say about the quality of Chrysler products? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:28, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, has anything noteworthy occurred in the regulatory history of Chrysler? say, a fine, perhaps a record-setting fine; or a buy-back program, perhaps a record-setting buy-back program? How would you summarize what reliable sources have to say about the regulatory history of Chrysler? Thanks. Hugh (talk) 00:32, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, has Chryler had any noteworthy struggles with recalls, perhaps multiple recalls for related issues, say maybe with airbags or other? How would you summarize what reliable sources have to say about Chrysler's recall history? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, may I respectfully ask you to please identify one sentence in the current article which might be read as unflattering or critical of the subject of the article? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 14:28, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
I agree with CZmarlin that the way in which HughD is proposing to integrate the material is not UNDUE and not NPOV. Springee (talk) 14:52, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
CZmarlin, you are confusing HughD's motivations here. HughD is here not because he cares about Chrysler but because I am here. Here on his talk page HughD states that I have been wikihounding him and says that I have been asked to avoid him [12]. He is correct that several editors have suggested that we avoid one another. That was fine with me. However, rather than avoiding me, HughD looked through my edit history and sought me out at the Ford Pinto article. When that article was locked and when RfC opinions were not going his way he moved here and reverted my edit to the article. It wasn't a coincident that the first edit was a reversion of one of my edits. That his behavior is disruptive and his edits unproductive is not surprising as his block history shows. I'm sorry he has subjected other editors to this warring that is actually intended for me. Springee (talk) 18:46, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

Please join the talk page discussion, thank you! pinging 2016 article editors: Typ932, Historianbuff, ViperSnake151, Mistersalesserio, MiniEstadi1982, Emergencyninja. — Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Additional editorial voices regarding the neutrality of this article with respect to reliable sources? Thank you. Hugh (talk) 18:20, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

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