Talk:Chud

Previous move

Changed the spelling and moved the article to Chudes. I wonder whether the information is NPOV.--Wiglaf 14:25, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Requested move

This move has been also discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chud (disambiguation). In particular, Aaron Brenneman (talk · contribs) has proposed:

Normal form for (non-mythical) people appears to be singular: Inuit, Aborigine. Thus move Chudes to Chud put

For other uses, see Talk:Chud (disambiguation).

at the top of it and C.H.U.D., leave CHUD pointing as it is now, and still delete this disambig.

I think that this is the best possible solution to resolve the possible conflicts between chud, chudes, C.H.U.D., and CHUD, with the additional advantage of removing the redundant and useless page Chud (disambiguation). Paolo Liberatore (Talk) 17:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

• Support, as the proponent. Paolo Liberatore (Talk) 17:07, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I have added a note at Talk:C.H.U.D.. Physchim62 (talk) 13:32, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

This move affects that page: thank you for leaving a note there (I should have done it myself). Paolo Liberatore (Talk) 16:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Move request fulfilled. Rob Church ^Talk 19:13, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

No references!

This article should provide some references.

got some, going to work further with it.--Termer 04:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

"History of Estonia" -box

Is that box really necessary on the page and specially on the top of the page? Chud is a general term for different Finnic groups and therefore part of the history of many different tribes, nations etc. In this light that infobox seems little exaggerated. What do you think? --Velivieras (talk) 18:40, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

This issue didn`t stirr up much debate. I considered to be best to remove the box because of arguments mentioned above.--Velivieras (talk) 13:01, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

The Volok people?

I removed the following unsourced sentence: "Later sources used chud to describe other Finnic peoples called volok, which is thought to refer to the Karelians." "Volok" is Russian for "portage" and as far as I know it wasn't used as an ethnonym. I guess, that sentence is supposed to be about "Chud' Zavolochskaya", which means "Chudes of the land across the portages" (see ru:Заволочье and ru:Чудь заволочская), but for now the sentence is wrong. Q-Wert-273 (talk) 15:38, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Muromian-map.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:38, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

All Old East Slavic sources mentions

For future reference.

Primary Chronicle (PVL)

In Cross & SW 1953 and Ostrowski et al. 2003:

1. Chud': p. 52. line 4,3 Чюдь
2. Chud' beyond the portages: p. 52. 4,5 Чюдь
3. Chud': p. 52. 4,7 Чюдь
4. Chud': p. 55. 11,9 Чюдь
5. Chuds: p. 59 (s.a. 6367 / 859). 19,8 Чюди
6. Chuds: p. 59 (s.a. 6368-70 / 860-62). 19,24 Чюдь
7. Chuds: p. 60 (s.a. 6388-6390 /880-882). 22,25 Чюдь
8. Chuds: p. 64. 29,21 Чюдь
9. Chuds: p. 91. 76,8 Чюдь
10. Chuds: p. 119. 121,21 Чюди
11. Chuds: p. 136 (s.a. 6538 / 1030). 149,27 Чюдь. "Yaroslav attacked the Chuds and conquered them."
12. Chuds: p. 153. 179,6 Чюдь

That's 12 mentions in total. Note: Chudin / Чюдинь is a proper name, and the word чюдеса means "miracles"; neither has anything to do with the Chud' people. NLeeuw (talk) 14:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Kievan Chronicle (KC)

In Heinrich 1977 (behind paywall) and Litopys.org.ua ipat13 + Litopys.org.ua ipat26

• p. 13: In the year 1131, Mstislav sent his sons--Vsevolod, Izjaslav, and Rostislav--against the Čud' people. They captured them and imposed a tribute on them.
  • В лѣто ҂s҃ х л҃ѳ [6639 (1131)] Посла Мьстиславъ сн҃ъı своӕ на Чюдь Всеволода Изѧслава Ростислава. и взѧша и и възложиша на нѣ дань.
• p. 371–372 narrates a brief Novgorodian campaign against Chud' people in the year 1178. Comment: God 'putting a good thought into X's heart' is a formulaic statement always made in connection with a Rus' princely plan to go campaigning against a non-Christian people. In this entire story, the Chud are called "the pagans" three times, whereas they are also called "Čud'" three times.
  • p. 371: When Mstislav was ruling in Great Novgorod, God put into his heart a good thought--to go against Čud'.
    • сѣдѧщю же Мьстиславоу в Новѣгородѣ Велицемь и вложи Бъ҃ въ срд̑це Д Мьстиславоу мъıсль блг҃оу поити на Чюдь.
  • p. 371: And so Mstislav set out against the land of Čud', and having entered it, he halted.
    • и тако поиде Мьстиславъ на Чюдьскоую землю и вшедъ в ню.
  • p. 372: And having received from God victory over the pagans, he (Mstislav) left Čud' with glory and great honor, and went into Pleskov.
    • ...же ємоу с Чюди вниде во Плесковъ.

That's 4 mentions in total, 3 of which are in the 1178 Novgorodian campaign. NLeeuw (talk) 16:20, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Novgorod First Chronicle (NPL)

In Michell & Forbes 1914.

• p. 8 [A.D. 1113. A.M. 6621]. In this same year Mstislav defeated the Chud[6] people at Bor. Footnote 6 says Finnish., so Michell & Forbes are equating these Chud people with the Finns.
• p. 9. A.D. 1116. A.M. 6624. Mstislav with the men of Novgorod went out against the Chud people and took Medvezlzya Golova[2] on [the day of] the forty saints. Footnote 2: The Bear’s Head; in Finnish: Oden-paa, the modern Odeppe. a village S. of Yurev, or Dorpat, W. of Novgorod. So even a village in present-day Estonia is framed as being "Finnish". Perhaps they regarded Estonian as a subset of Finnish? In modern terms, it would be "Finnic".
• p. 12. A.D. 1130. A.M. 6638. Vsevolod with the men of Novgorod went against the Chud people in the winter during the Feast; them he slaughtered, their dwellings he burned, and their wives and children he brought home. This is similar to the KC s.a. 1131 passage saying that Mstislav sent his sons Vsevolod, Iziaslav and Rostislav against the Chud'; but somehow, only Vsevolod is mentioned here. Captives are also mentioned, specifying that they were the wives and children of the "them", presumably the Chud men, who "he slaughtered".
• p. 12. A.D. 1131. A.M. 6639. (...) The same year in the winter, Vsevolod went against the Chud people, and there happened a great calamity; they did to death many good men of Novgorod at Klin on Saturday, January 23. Again, this seems similar to the report in the KC as well as of the previous year, but only Vsevolod is mentioned, and he is heavily defeated instead of victorious.
• p. 13. [A.D. 1133. A.M. 6641.] The same year in the winter, Vsevolod with the men of Novgorod went against the Chud people and took the town of Gyurgevl on the anniversary of St. Nikifor, the 9th day of February. Another Vsevolod raid in the early 1130s.
• p. 17.
• p. 29 [A.D. 1176. A.M. 6684]. The same winter the whole Chud Land came to Pleskov, and fought with them, and killed Vyacheslav, Mikita Zakharinits, and Stanimir Ivanits, and others, but they killed a quantity of Chud people.
• p. 30 [A.D. 1179. A.M. 6687]. ...and in the winter Mstislav went with the men of Novgorod against the Chud people to Ochela, and set fire to their whole land; they themselves fled to the sea, but even there plenty of them fell. This seems to mirror the Novgorodian campaign of 1178 narrated in the KC.
• p. 34 [A.D. 1190. A.M. 6698.] The same year the men of Pleskov did to death [some] Chud people of the coast; (...).
• p. 35 [A.D. 1191. A.M. 6699.] 2x ...The same year Kynaz Yaroslav went to Luki, summoned by the Knyazes and people of Polotsk, and took with him the foremost Druzhina of the men of Novgorod, and they met on the border and put love between each other, how in the winter they would all meet either against the Lithuanians or the Chud people..... ...And it was in the winter, Knyaz Yaroslav with the men of Novgorod, of Pleskov and of his own province went against the Chud people, took the town of Gyurgev, burned their country, and brought countless plunder; and themselves all came back well to Novgorod. Comment: It seems that Novgorodians and Pleskovians pillaging Gyurgev(l) [Yuryev/Dorpat/Tartu?] in the winter was something of a regular occurrence. Entries on it are quite formulaic and repetitive. It could be that some entries were unintentionally duplicated, but that multiple similar raids happened at different times seems quite plausible.

If done in winter, it could signify food shortages in Novgorod and Pleskov, as armies usually don't campaign in winter exactly because of food shortages plus harsh weather. Pre-modern armies attacking in winter are usually desperate for food and other supplies that they hope to seize from an enemy if they cannot supply their own troops and/or civilians. The fact that in this 1191 entry Yaroslav, the Novgorodians, Pleskovians, Polotskians and others are discussing whether to campaign against the Lithuanians or Chud shows that there seems to be no larger ideological or geopolitical purpose behind the plans, such as conquest or Christianisation, or even revenge; they picked a target that they found most suitable. There are no explicit religious elements in this brief narrative, nor is there any suggestion that the Rus' coalition was interested in conquering and controlling these lands permanently. Unlike the KC entry for 1178, the focus here is not on God planting a good thought in a prince's heart to fight "the pagans"; what seems relevant is that "[they] brought countless plunder; and themselves all came back well to Novgorod." That suggests that they were interested in their own troops' survival (all getting back home well), and that the most important goal of the campaign was taking the plunder home with them.

The winter 1176 Chud raid on Pleskov might represent the same phenomenon in reverse: it had an unclear goal, but they could have been desperate for food, failed to gather their own winter stocks, and so sought to plunder their neighbours instead. The 1190 Chud raid on Pleskov also had an unclear goal and is not explicitly said to have occurred in the winter season; it might represent yet another winter food raid, although this one was defeated by the Pleskovian defenders. In both cases, the NPL emphasises that a number of Chud raiders were killed, perhaps in an attempt to claim victory, or to offset the casualties or damage suffered by the attacks.

NLeeuw (talk) 16:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)