Talk:Circle of the Rhine

Circles and districts

circles refer to an administrative division of the holy roman empire, e. g. upper rhenish circle. such circles contained more or less numerous entities with various levels of independence. the kingdom of bavaria was divided into 15 districts, one of which was the rheinkreis, later pfalz. the other kreise, as far as they are listed in wikipedia, have also been translated with "district". these districts were "modern" and had no resemblence with the imperial circles. using a source from 1832 is not exactly up-to-date.Sundar1 (talk) 06:53, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually I've done a quick bit of research on Google books and it appears "circle" and "district" are both used in the literature for these administrative units set up under French rule. Circle slightly predominates, but more work is needed. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Both "circle" and "district" are fine, but I think "Circle of the Rhine" is more common than the current title. Srnec (talk) 23:55, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Wow, you're right - by miles it would seem. Well spotted, Srnec. --Bermicourt (talk) 08:56, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

the divisions in bavaria were not set up under french rule but after founding of the bavarian kingdom. nowhere ever are the bavarian districts (in german "kreise" or "regierungsbezirke" translated as "circles", except in the ancient book dug up from 1832. of course, in other circumstances, circles and districts can have other translations, but not so in the case of german administrative divisions after 1800. the other bavarian divisions, as far as they are listed in wikipedia, have also been translated as districts. Sundar1 (talk) 12:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

I've reverted your good faith edits until this discussion is resolved and a consensus reached. The last time Srnec and I researched this we found that the current title was the WP:COMMONNAME. However, I think we're both happy to revisit that if you can point to evidence to the contrary. Bermicourt (talk) 17:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Try "British Envoys to Germany, 1816–1866: Volume II, 1830–1847", Camden Fifth Series, vol. 21 (2002), p. 430 n. 38: "Under the terms of the Ordinance of 29 November 1837, the eight circles of the Kingdom of Bavaria, which had so far been named after rivers, were renamed..." Even in 2015, the term "circle" is a perfectly fine translation for German administrative divisions post-1800. It was the contemporary translation. Why should it have changed? Srnec (talk) 00:08, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

that's some source from 2002: it cites a letters written in the 1830s. show me a translation using "circle" that's not older than 150 years. this is the only article in wikipedia in which the term "circle" is used as translation for german divisions created after 1800. thus, the article is in contradiction with all aritcles on the administration of germany or its components, especially bavaria. the administrative divisions (kreise and bezirke) exist to this very day and none of them are translated as circles. so if the terminology for the administration never changed in german, why should it have changed in english from circle to district? it's because "circle" never gained any currency. "circles in/of bavaria" produces very few usable results in the web or on google books unless you count all the hits showing "bavarian circle". on the other hand, you find the use of "district" or "administrative division" all over the place. it is also apparent, that the term "district" was very well used alongside "circle", sometimes within the very same source. it would only make some sense writing that the districts in english were initially also called circles. Sundar1 (talk) 13:43, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't agree that we can just dismiss contemporary sources because they're "old"; that's just "modernism". However, if you have modern sources that back your naming theory, feel free to cite them and justify why they trump all other sources. So far you've just argued a POV. Bermicourt (talk) 14:42, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Sundar, that was a translation from 2002. It is in the editors' note. Srnec (talk) 02:39, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

srnec, the cited letters from the 1830s are english originals, not translations. bermicourt, you ignore other arguments of mine or dismiss them as pov. the observations i'm pointing at are not pov. if you cared to look you can make them yourselves. i'm still awaiting your response. btw, what's wrong with modernism? languages evolve and terminology does change but for fear of modernism you want to stick to outdated names which never gained much currency, if at all, in the first place?

no matter how hard i look, there are only very few sources that use "circle" and some of them use circle as well as other terms, e. g. provinces or districts. here the ones i found on the first twenty pages in the web, after which i stopped looking:

a concise new gazetteer of the world (1824): a circle or province

encyclopaedia londinensis (1827): a circle or province

it's also remarkable that the term you insist on, circle of the rhine, has barely any entries in the web. the 2 that i listed here are the only ones i found in the first 20 pages.

on google books i only found only the following entries when looking for bavarian circle, none of them from after 1850:

divided into the 8 following circles (thomson/cunningham: the popular encyclopedia or conversations lexicon, vol 1, 1841)

divided into 8 circles (m. malte-brun, universal geography, 1829)

cicles, in which bavaria is divided (the british cyclopaedia, 1838)

province of the rhine (the penny cyclopaedia, vol. 4, 1835) this source mainly uses "circles" for the other bavarian regierungsbezirke but sometimes also districts.

on the other hand, it's easy to find sources using other terms. none of them use the term "circle":

translation of constitution of 1808: fourth title. on the national representation. § I. in each district, the delegates will elect, from among ...(http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=3648) in the original it says: in einem jedem kreise werden aus denjenigen ....

bavaria is divided in 7 administrative regions (http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/Germany/bayern.htm)

the federal state of bavaria is subdivided into seven governmental districts (http://www.regierung.oberbayern.bayern.de/englisch/)

the free state of bavaria is subdivided into seven administrative districts (http://www.regierung.oberfranken.bayern.de/en/index.php, http://www.regierung.unterfranken.bayern.de/service/englisch/00101/index.html)

bavaria is divided into seven administrative regions (https://www.study-in-bavaria.de/why-bavaria/discover-bavaria/geography/)

alsace-lorraine and bavaria were divided into bezirke (districts) (http://www.statoids.com/ude.html)

the us-consulate munich talks about regions (http://munich.usconsulate.gov/news/map.html)

ian kershaw in "popular opinion and political dissent in the third reich, bavaria 1933-1945", p. 22 talks about administrative regions

joachim whaley in "germany and the holy roman empire: vol. II: the peace of westphalia to the dissolution of the reich 1648-1806". in his introduction he calls the english term "circle" for the subdivisions of the HRE awkward, which means, using this term for the later regierungsbezirke is even more so. whaley simply stuck to the german term "kreise" and the bavarian bezirke he calls "administrave regions", see p. xii.

8 provincial governments (kreisregierungen)(isabel v. hull in: sexuality, state, and civil society in germany, 1700-1815, p 338)

adopting the division into districts already introduced in prussia, austria, saxony, and hessen (maximilian von montgelas, "ansbach memorandum" proposal for a program of state reforms (1796) http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=3632)

regional administrative system (jose r. canoy: the discreet charm of the police state, 2006, p. 46)

bavarian generalkreiskommissare (james j. sheehan: german history, 1770-1866, 1989, p. 267)

replaced the old provincial governments with 15 administrative districts (alexander grab: napoleon and the transformation of europe, 2003)

need i add more?Sundar1 (talk) 14:07, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't have time to review every source, but you seem to be confusing the modern and general translation of the word Kreis, which is often "district", but sometimes "county", with the very historically specific translation of Kreis as "circle". Also you have woven into the argument entities that are nothing to do with Kreis either in name or in historical period, for example the seven Regierungsbezirke of Bavaria are modern entities, nothing to do with Kreise anyway, and which are officially translated by the EU as "government regions". Bermicourt (talk) 15:44, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

this is where we're coming full circle. admittedly, the bavarian administrative regulations are confusing because in the consitution it says "kreise", meaning regierungsbezirke, whereas kreise in other german states are 3. level administration. of course bavaria also has land-kreise and today, the regierungsbezirke are actually called regierungsbezirke, which adds to the confusion. nevertheless, the full circle is completed because that has been my argument from the very beginning; i did not weave anything together: the regierungsbezirke (in bavaria: kreise) created by montgelas after 1800 are the modern administrative entities we have today. they were part of a radical administrative reform, at the time quite revolutionary and met with much resistance by former power holders. the same reforms took place in all the german states and these reforms and administrative units exist, apart from amalgamations, re-naming and minor border changes to this very day. in several german states 2. level units (regierungsbezirke) have been abolished and smaller ones never introduced them. thus, the 7 bavarian regierungsbezirke are the very ones created by montgelas and they have the same functions and purpose.

but even if they weren't, why would you translate the modern ones, which the bavarian constitution still calls "kreise" but in all states are called (regierungs-)bezirke, as administrative districts and the "older" ones as circles? in german, there was neither a change of function or of name. why and when does the english name-change take place? the only solution can be that we use unified terminology and, if necessary, explain the use of other terms such as "circle" in earlier times. Sundar1 (talk) 08:40, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

ps: i suppose you know german and suggest you read: https://www.historisches-lexikon-bayerns.de/Lexikon/Regierungsbezirke. i just found this site that explains the administrative development concerning regierungsbezirke and where you can clearly see the continuity. Sundar1 (talk) 10:23, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

I see continuity, yes, but also a change in nomenclature in German, in Bavaria (from Kreis to Regierungsbezirk). Why shouldn't English usage reflect that? Use "circle" when they were still predominantly called Kreise in German and use "district" when the dominant term was Regierungsbezirk. The reason it is difficult is that the Rheinkreis may have been called a circle in English, but the Kreis Pfalz mostly wasn't (this is my impression). This problem, where usage changes over time (and later historiography maps it), occurs again and again at Wikipedia. In this particular case, however, the circle/district does not exist any longer and I don't think it is as big a deal as you think it is how we translated Kreis. (I speak for myself, and not for Bermicourt.) Srnec (talk) 02:15, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

srnec, this is really tiring because i have to keep repeating myself: in the bavarian constitution it still says "kreise" for the regierungsbezirke. in the general use of regierungsbezirk, bavaria gradually joined the rest of germany in the early 1900s. if "circle" is to reflect the terminology until then, why are the bavarian kreise of today - and all the german ones for that matter - not called circles? and why were the kreise in other german areas not called circles then? there is absolutely no consistency. as to your suggestion why the english terminology for the pfalz district is difficult, it has a weak spot: "kreis"-pfalz was hardly used, if at all, certainly not officially. the new names were specifically to avoid the term "kreis". but the units were "kreise" before and after the name change. what matters now is that we're talking about 2. level units. in today's language that's certainly not circles. it is a big deal because in wikipedia the term "circle" is neither used for any of the other bavarian 2. level units after 1800 nor for articles on bavaria in general and "circle of the rhine" sticks out like a sore thumb. btw, "circle" for HRE-kreise has been an awkward translation to beginn with and using it for bavaria after 1800 for something totally different just tops it.Sundar1 (talk) 07:25, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Name change

the discussion with only 2 contributors yielded no arguments for "circle of the rhine" apart from repeated references to very few and old sources. therefore, i intend to return (move) the title to "rheinkreis", in line with the titles of all related articles in wikipedia.Sundar1 (talk) 08:40, 14 December 2015 (UTC)

Do not do this without initiating a formal move request as your move will be controversial. --Bermicourt (talk) 21:58, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

there have been no more responses to my arguments. therefore, why should it be controversial? but, as you wish.

herewith move to "rheinkreis" formally requested. reasons:

• only few old sources (around 1830s) for "circle", some of which also use other terms
• "circle" not used for comparable administrative units with the same name
• "circle" is likely to be confused with "circles of hre"
• no contempory source uses "circle" for the units of the bavarian kingdom
• "rheinkreis" puts the article in line with all existing wikipedia ariticles on germany, bavaria etc.
• reference to "circle" as an old term in rheinkreis article sufficient

Sundar1 (talk) 09:24, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Could you follow the WP:MOVEREQ process please so that the right notifications are sent out and we get an independent admin to close the discussion and make a decision. Use the "single page move" guidance. Thanks. Bermicourt (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 17 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved as there is no support for the move at this time outside of the nom. Please wait at least 6 months before reproposing this move.(non-admin closure) Tiggerjay (talk) 06:45, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

---

Circle of the Rhine → Rheinkreis – .

• there are only pre-1900 sources, mostly even pre 1850 for use of "circle", some of which also use other terms and some of which use very same wording
• no source after 1900 and no contempory source uses "circle" for the units of the bavarian kingdom
• "circle" has not been used for 2. level administrative units created after 1800
• the new administrative units created in the kingdom of bavaria are the ones that still exist today
• "circle" is likely to be confused with "circles of hre"
• "rheinkreis" puts the article in line with all existing wikipedia ariticles on germany, bavaria etc., in none of which the term "circle" is used.
• while the title of the article is "circle of the rhine", the text switches to "rheincircle" which, if one actually wants to directly translate the word "rheinkreis", would be the correct translation
• reference to "circle" as an old term in the rheinkreis article would be sufficient

Sources for “Circle of the Rhine” Altogether, the wording in the sources of the 1800’s is often so similar, if not the same.

• A Gazetteer of the World, A Dictionary of Geographical Knowledge, London/Dublin, 1856

uses “circle” as general translation for any unit named “Kreis”, no matter what level of administration. Sometimes it refers to the name of the respective unit without the term “Kreis”, e. g. “Pfalz”, which actually was the correct name of that unit at the time. https://books.google.de/books?id=KroNAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA454&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false

• The Columbian Cyclopedia, 1897

https://books.google.de/books?id=wT0KAQAAMAAJ&q=circle+of+the+rhine&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y

• The Harvard encyclopedia: a dictionary of language arts, sciences, and general literature, 1890,

https://books.google.de/books?id=qiVSAAAAYAAJ&q=circle+of+the+rhine&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y

• The Treasury of Geography, Physical, Historical, Descriptive, and Political ..., London, 1860

https://books.google.de/books?id=GRIyAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA253&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false these 3 have the same wording and use “circle” for the Regierungsbezirke of Baden which is inexplicable because Baden never used the term “Kreis” for that level of administration, only Bavaria. The “Kreise” of Baden are translated as “districts”. So there is no consistency here.

• A New System of Modern Geography, Boston, 1822

uses circle for units in all states regardless, if they were actually called kreise or not. No consistency https://books.google.de/books?id=augQaFijVBoC&pg=PA407&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false

• The Penny Cyclopaedia. Volume IV, London, 1835, p. 49
• Bassantin – Bloemaart Penny Cyc.

https://books.google.de/books?id=hcHe_4Wm46AC&pg=PA50&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false https://books.google.de/books?id=4P5eAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA50&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false uses circle and province for Bavaria more or less interchangably, sometimes districts

• An Abridgement of Universal Geography, New York, 1835

https://books.google.de/books?id=0UYAAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA302&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false uses circles for different units in different states, very much a copy of “A New System ...” of 1822

• On National Education, London, 1839

Uses “Circle of the Rhine” https://books.google.de/books?id=QWwEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA148&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false

• The Edinburgh Gazetteer, Or Geographical Dictionary ...: , 1822

Generally translates any unit called “Kreis” with “circle”. https://books.google.de/books?id=25ovAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA71&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false

• A System of Geography, Popular and Scientific: Or A Physical .., Glasgow, 1832

https://books.google.de/books?id=GVUBAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA359&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false

• Universal Geography, or, a Description of All the Parts of the World, Edinburgh, 1829

Circle of the Rhine, a Bavarian province ... https://books.google.de/books?id=0EYNAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA240&dq=circle+of+the+rhine&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=circle%20of%20the%20rhine&f=false

• Encyclopaedia Londinensis - Vol 22 – p. 54, 1827

Rhine, Circle of, a “province” subject to Bavaria .. https://books.google.de/books?id=3BnL4ahP4DEC&pg=PA54&dq=encyclopaedia+londinensis+Rhinecircle&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-iNSU4-LJAhWB1SwKHSl-ALQQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=encyclopaedia%20londinensis%20Rhinecircle&f=false

Sources for Rheinkreis or other terms than “circle”

• A concise new Gazetteer of the World, for the use of schools, 1824

Describes Circle of the Rhine as province of Bavaria https://books.google.de/books?id=h7ZfAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA85&dq=a+concise+new+gazetteer+of+the+world+bavaria+circle+or+province&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi815Xn3-LJAhVGVxoKHctkCpUQ6AEIIDAA#v=onepage&q=a%20concise%20new%20gazetteer%20of%20the%20world%20bavaria%20circle%20or%20province&f=false

• Bavaria in the German Confederation, 1820-1848, 1977

... her Rhenish provinces (Rheinkreis) https://books.google.de/books?id=B1sbAAAAMAAJ&q=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&dq=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y

• Heritage Quest, 1999

Bavarian Rheinkreis https://books.google.de/books?id=RnxbAAAAMAAJ&q=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&dq=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y

• German Genealogical Digest, 2000

Rheinkreis https://books.google.de/books?id=PAdsAAAAMAAJ&q=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&dq=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y

• Murray's Handbook for Belgium and the Rhine, 1852

by the Rheinkreis https://books.google.de/books?id=BJYxAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA242&dq=Bavaria+Rheinkreis&hl=de&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Bavaria%20Rheinkreis&f=false

• Translation of Constitution of 1808: fourth title. On the national representation. § I. In each district, the delegates will elect, from among ...(http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=3648) in the original it says: in einem jedem Kreise werden aus denjenigen ....

• Nations Online: Your Gateway to the Countries and Nations of the World

Bavaria is divided in 7 administrative regions http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/Germany/bayern.htm

• Government Websites (Upper Bavaria, Upper Franconia, Lower Franconia)

the federal state of bavaria is subdivided into seven governmental districts or the free state of bavaria is subdivided into seven administrative districts http://www.regierung.oberbayern.bayern.de/englisch/ http://www.regierung.oberfranken.bayern.de/en/index.php, http://www.regierung.unterfranken.bayern.de/service/englisch/00101/index.html

• Tourist Site:

bavaria is divided into seven administrative regions https://www.study-in-bavaria.de/why-bavaria/discover-bavaria/geography/

• Statoids.com:

Alsace-Lorraine and Bavaria were divided into bezirke (districts) http://www.statoids.com/ude.html

• US-Consulate Munich talks about regions http://munich.usconsulate.gov/news/map.html

• Ian Kershaw in "Popular opinion and political dissent in the Third Reich, Bavaria 1933-1945", p. 22 talks about administrative regions

• Joachim Whaley in "Germany and the Holy Roman Empire: vol. II: The Peace of Westphalia to the Dissolution of the Reich 1648-1806". In his introduction he calls the English term "circle" for the subdivisions of the HRE awkward, which means, using this term for the later regierungsbezirke is even more so. Whaley simply stuck to the German term "kreise" and the Bavarian bezirke he calls "administrave regions", see p. xii.

• Isabel v. Hull in: Sexuality, State, and Civil Society in Germany, 1700-1815, p 338)

8 provincial governments (kreisregierungen)

• German History in Documents and Images (GHDI):

... adopting the division into districts already introduced in prussia, austria, saxony, and hessen (maximilian von montgelas, "ansbach memorandum" proposal for a program of state reforms (1796) http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/docpage.cfm?docpage_id=3632)

• Jose R. Canoy in: The discreet charm of the police state, 2006, p. 46

regional administrative system

• James J. Sheehan in: German History, 1770-1866, 1989, p. 267

... Bavarian generalkreiskommissare

• Alexander Grab in: Napoleon and the Transformation of Europe, 2003

... replaced the old provincial governments with 15 administrative districts Sundar1 (talk) 13:12, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. The nom has made a good faith attempt to justify renaming the article with its German name and clearly tried to review the sources. However, it is somewhat selective. For a start, as this entity only existed for 21 years during the 19th century, we would expect the bulk of English sources to be dated to that century. Nevertheless there are later sources too e.g. Cannon's Historical Record of the Third, Or the King's Own Regiment of Light Dragoons (2015) says "The enemy's entrenchments at Germersheim, in the Bavarian circle of the Rhine, were afterwards destroyed...". More importantly "Circle of the Rhine" is a very common usage overall with over 30,000 hits on google books. It is true that the modern term Kreis is not translated as "circle" but that is not relevant - it refers to an modern administrative unit, not this historical one. There is no connexion between Circle of the Rhine and the modern Bavarian administrative districts - it is not even in modern Bavaria! I am still satisfied that this is the most common English term and should be preferred over an unintelligible German one. Bermicourt (talk) 21:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Bermicourt, who has made a good case against the proposed change. RGloucester — ☎ 18:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
• there are only pre-1900 sources, mostly even pre 1850 for use of "circle", some of which also use other terms and some of which use very same wording. False, as shown in the section above. no source after 1900 and no contempory source uses "circle" for the units of the bavarian kingdom. False. "circle" has not been used for 2. level administrative units created after 1800. False. the new administrative units created in the kingdom of bavaria are the ones that still exist today. Sure, but that doesn't mean that they have the same names and this particular administrative unit does not exist anymore and is not part of Bavaria. "circle" is likely to be confused with "circles of hre". Not if a reader reads the first sentence. "rheinkreis" puts the article in line with all existing wikipedia ariticles on germany, bavaria etc., in none of which the term "circle" is used. We do not always use German terms, so it would not put the article in line with all others. while the title of the article is "circle of the rhine", the text switches to "rheincircle" which, if one actually wants to directly translate the word "rheinkreis", would be the correct translation. "Rheincircle" is never used. And it's just plain wrong. reference to "circle" as an old term in the rheinkreis article would be sufficient. Yes it would, but since the rest of your arguments are wrong there's no compelling reason to move the article. All told, I have no problem with "Rhine District" or "Rhine Province" or some other translation of the German term, but Sundar seems to think there is a problem where there isn't. Srnec (talk) 21:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

• support. the entity of the rheinkreis/pfalz existed until 1945, the other bavarian entities created at the same time, unless merged with others, exist to this very day. in the bavarian consitution they are still called kreise, in common usage they are now regierungsbezirke like in other german states. the one modern day source given for the use of circle is not much. and, again, circle is not used on any other page for bavaria or germany, nor for the history and make-up of the states as whole, nor for the respective pages for the districts as far as they exist. this makes the article "circle of the rhine" stand apart from all these articles without any justification. srnec outrightly claims all my reasons to be false without much proof if at all. the article does switch to rhein circle in the second paragraph. perhaps he should check. i was also not promoting a german title, although the term rheinkreis is often used and articles on other kreise of that time already exist. on the other hand, the term circle is never used on wikipedia. therefore it would make sense to continue with rheinkreis discribing it as a 2. level administrative unit. thus, as a whole, my arguments given still stand.Sundar1 (talk) 14:21, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

in addition, there are no 30.000 hits for circle of the rhine and it is an unprofessional method for an argument because these hits include anything including circle and rhine. the ones i listed in my initial request are the only hits on the first 10 pages, eventually petering out. so my list is not selective as bermicourt claims because it lists every hit on the first 10 pages. all other hits on the first 10 pages do not refer to circle of the rhine in bavaria. and again, i included in my list that these few hits are mostly from the first half of the 1800s.Sundar1 (talk) 14:25, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, Sundar1, you can't vote a second time as the nominator. And BTW the 30,000 hits were for the specific phrase "circle of the Rhine", so would not have included "circle" and "Rhine". Bermicourt (talk) 16:39, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

when i search for the "specific phrase" circle of the rhine in google i get even 506.ooo hits. but on the first page already there only is one real hit referring to the administrative unit we're talking about and that is this very wikipedia article. if you search on google books advanced you only get one page of hits for circle of the rhine (after blocking upper and lower), and again, many of them do not refer to "our" circle. it's mysterious how one can claim 30.000 hits and not see, that almost none of them refer to the bavarian rheinkreis. referring to hits listed by google without checking them is poor research. Sundar1 (talk) 12:04, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

Be careful not to criticise other's research without being sure of your ground. I have just re-run the search on Google Books (not Google) and all the initial hits are for this territory. So I'm not sure why you're getting different results. Even plain Google gives around 900,000 hits and the initial ones seem to be about the historical state, although I'm sure there are many spurious ones too. But even "Bavarian circle of the Rhine" yields 800 hits on Google Books. Are you using Google Books and are you enclosing the phrase in quotes to cut out the irrelevant hits? Bermicourt (talk) 13:38, 25 December 2015 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Circle of the Palatinate

In 1837 the Circle of the Rhine was renamed. The Royal Act says at Article II "Die acht Kreise des Königreiches nehmen folgende Bennungen an: ... Pfalz" so they are all "Kreise" or "circles" in the English term for that period. Art. III says "Der Kreis Pfalz..." In German and English we can abbreviate them to "Palatinate" and "Pfalz" respectively but the full titles are "Circle of..." and "Kreis ...". I'd be grateful if Sundar stopped deleting the word "Circle". You may not like it, but that's the term we use in our language. Bermicourt (talk) 16:10, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

the full titles are clearly stated in art II where the names are listed without "kreis". in art III it says "die kreise ...." which simply means: "the districts of .....". very simple. "kreis" is not part of the official name. you also say "city of toronto" but only "toronto" ist the official name.Sundar1 (talk) 08:52, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

in the source of 1858 "cirlce" is not spelled with a capital "c", so it's not part of the name.Sundar1 (talk) 12:07, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

Actually if we read the source critically without filtering it, we can see that the author is inconsistent in his use of capitals e.g. in the same sentence he talks about the "dutchy of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, and ... Landgraviate of Hesse-Homburg". So we can't presume anything from his capitalisation, but we can infer that the proper name must be Circle of the Rhine, otherwise we're left with calling it "Rhine" which would be totally confusing and only used in English to refer to the river. Incidentally he refers to the Circle of the Rhine as one of the Bavarian "provinces", which totally agrees with my understanding of the term "province" as a generic description for these regions.Bermicourt (talk) 13:33, 4 March 2016 (UTC)

many if not most sources that you have come up with in this context tend to be inconsistent and here you once again deviated from the topic. the issue was "palatinate" after the name change where you thought you could further push the use of "circle" by claiming the new name was "circle of palatinate". as to my explanations, i have nothing ot add.Sundar1 (talk) 10:41, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

Yes, because I've already quoted the source's use of Pfalz above - it was one of the eight Kreise and then says "Der Kreis Pfalz..." i.e. "the Circle of Palatinate". Unfortunately the capitalization of German nouns makes it difficult to distinguish between "circle of" and "Circle of" i.e. whether in German Kreis is part of the proper name. But in English it appears to be, just like "Duchy of Foo". --Bermicourt (talk) 12:07, 11 March 2016 (UTC)