Talk:Boston Municipal Protective Services

Requested move 28 May 2015

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved to Boston Municipal Protective Services. There is clear support for a page move, as the current title is highly ambiguous. The preferred target is a bit less clear, but Boston Municipal Protective Services appears to be the least bad option (and one reasonably reflected in sources). As for the redirect target for City Hall Security, I would suggest adding a section to Seat of local government (to which City Hall redirects) indicating that city halls tend to have a security presence, either drawn from the local police, or specific to the building. bd2412 T 18:01, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

City Hall Security → City Hall Security (Boston) – Per WP:PRECISE. City Hall security could mean any City Hall Security. We could also change the name to Municipal Protective Services, which is also the name of the security. CookieMonster755 ^(talk) 18:30, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• What's wrong with Municipal Protective Service which is the name per the article? Vegaswikian (talk) 19:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I did not seen that Vegaswikian, that could be an option as well. Cross out per Necrothesp. CookieMonster755 ^(talk) 20:44, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

According to its website it has now been renamed City Hall Security. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support Municipal Protective Services (Boston) or similar. "Municipal Protective Services", plural, is the name used by Boston government websites and probably what the agency is called in general. However, "municipal protective services" also seems to be a generic classification used in vocational listings and the like to refer to this occupation generally. While we don't have another article with that title, disambiguation is preferable. 209.211.131.181 (talk) 23:08, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Does appear to now be called City Hall Security according to its own website, but this is indeed far too ambiguous. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support - more precise, per nominator. Dental plan / lisa needs braces! 21:19, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support per nom, good call. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:54, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support: There are very many town halls and city halls, and many of them have security services. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:03, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose all, as pandering to a local-specific PR name, it is not what the subject is known as. Instead, rename move back to Boston Municipal Protective Services, which is the name used in all areas not controlled by the PR people. NB. Boston Municipal Police needs to redirect elsewhere, probably an yet-to-be-written section at Boston Police Department. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:14, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Except that they don't actually seem to use that name any more! Why would we move to a name that isn't actually used? -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:42, 5 June 2015 (UTC)
    • "They", the official documents authored by their PR people, don't, but everybody else, including their staff, does. And outside of Boston, the official name is so unrecognizable it needs unnatural disambiguation. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:11, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Sources that use "Boston Municipal Protective Services" and do not use "City Hall Security" include:

Informational: http://bmrb.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Transistion14-2-Bostons-Organizational-Structure.pdf

news: https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/10/30/tears-and-shock-around-boston-city-hall-where-menino-was-mayor-for-years/f4HYUhSkQ0B2MXOTruMK7J/story.html uses "Boston Municipal Protective Services" and does not use "City Hall Security"

Similarly: http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/10/10/team_effort_by_police_translates_to_success_in_rescue_at_city_hall/

Note: Boston Municipal Protective Services was the previous (April 2007 - June 2008) location for this article. User:Wizmo moved and altered the article in June 2008. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=City_Hall_Security&type=revision&diff=223188857&oldid=218425101

The above sources show that the previous official name remains the accepted name.

Searching for sources using "City Hall Security" are confounded by the extreme ambiguity of the phrase, the phrase being used in association with many unrelated subjects. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• But, should I not be agreed with on my preference, the proposal is less bad than the current title. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:03, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose What are we going to do with the previous title? If there are other notable topics by this name, where are they? --BDD (talk) 15:31, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

• Other cities (Toronto) have "City Hall Security"s, and lots of places have city halls and security for the city halls. Leaving this article at this title doesn't solve the problem of it being unrecognizable non Boston municipal readers, and it being ambiguous. The title, the redirect left after renaming, would be best deleted so that any attempt to go straight to the exact title will invoke the search engine. If that doesn't work, redirect and list Boston Municipal Protective Services at City Hall (disambiguation). Simply redirecting to Boston Municipal Protective Services is also reasonable. "City Hall" is an arcane terminology used without widely accepted meaning, sometimes used for trivial fashion reasons. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:17, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support per the aboves, either CHS (Boston) or MPS (Boston) or Boston CHS or Boston MPS choices works for me. Per SmokeyJoe, the current title does not work. -- 70.51.203.69 (talk) 12:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose. There are no other articles to disambiguate this from, which leaves us in the situation where the base name would redirect to the longer, disambiguated name. If the department has another common name, let's see the evidence for it.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

There are many usages of "city hall security" not related to this subject. The common name for this subject appears to be the previous official name. The redirect should be deleted so that searchers encounter search engine results. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not seeing any that have Wikipedia articles that would compete for the title "City Hall Security". And we really shouldn't be deleting any reasonable redirect. As far as the common name goes, when did the name change occur? We really need to see how sources have treated the subject since then.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Opppose per Cuchullain. However, I'm open to SmokeyJoe's suggestion of Boston Municipal Protective Services if it can be shown that is the common name in independent reliable sources. Jenks24 (talk) 11:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Some sources added above. There are few sources, with this department, spun out of the police to provide more narrowly defined security is not very news or study worthy. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks. My new !vote is move to Boston Municipal Protective Services per the sources provided by SmokeyJoe. To be clear though, I still oppose the initial proposed title. Jenks24 (talk) 14:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support, current name is misleading. Cavarrone 11:49, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Cavarrone, won't "City Hall Security" redirecting to the new title also be misleading? --BDD (talk) 13:59, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it should go away IMO, but let's take one thing at a time. Cavarrone 14:13, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Post-move comments

Thanks to BD2412 for what I think was a very sensible close. But I would just like to strongly suggest someone does not edit Seat of local government as described in the close, unless he or she can back it up with good sourcing. Most city halls have security forces? Says who? There are some pretty tiny cities out there. --BDD (talk) 18:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Of course, any addition should be sourced. I would also point out that a city hall need not have a dedicated "security force" to have "security" of some kind. bd2412 T 18:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC)