Talk:Clan Munro

Source

Some of the info here was researched using an online version of a book first published in 1764 by the Foulis Press. It was called "The History of the Feuds and Conflicts Among the Clans in the Northern Parts of Scotland and in the Western Isles: from the year M.XX1 unto M.B.C.XIX". It can be found here, modernised to 1890 orthography standards:[[1]]

How necessary is the line in the opening paragraph that the clan are "of native Scottish Gael" ? There is no such thing as a clan which was not of Scottish Gaels ( clans being a purely Gaelic phenomenon although of course some had origins in incoming Norman families who were Gaelicized) and im not aware of any modern status as being especially Gaelic ( Munro is as Anglicized as the rest of the clans nowadays sadly) which might merit it. The statement seems superfluous to me. An Siarach

Well maybe there is no need for the line "of native Scottish Gael" then. Perhaps it should be removed ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.137.109.177 (talk • contribs) 9:54, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Foulis Castle Pictures

All sources were quoted for all the Foulis Castle pictures. Also permission was given from their relevant sites to use them. So there is no need to delete them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.137.109.177 (talk • contribs)

Earliest Munros

Lets just get this straight. The first Munro was recorded in the 11th century but they were not recorded at foulis until the 14th century (1300s).

Article to long

If this Clan Munro article is to long and needs to be shortened then the section on Foulis Castle could be removed as it has its own article anyway.

mjgm84 11:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Article content

Hi, I just wanted to keep the article to the minimum 32K. Also the bot removed an external link, fine but it removed all my previous edits too. I just restored them. All due respect TW. QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:28, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

De Munro

Robert Munro, "killed in an obscure skirmish fighting in defense of Uilleam III, Earl of Ross in 1369", is referred to as "Robert de Munro". The "de" prefixt (denoting someone "of", "from", a given place) demonstrates that Munroe was a placename adapted as a surname. There may or may not be substance to the claim that they were O Cathain of Derry, but I have thus not seen it recorded in any extant Gaelic sources. I would direct anyone interested to Dubhaltach MacFhirbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenealach, which is one of the largest collection of Gaelic, Scottish and Anglo-Irish still in existence. Is mise, Fergananim (talk) 20:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Chief of Clan Munro

As Gaelic chiefship follows agnatic seniority, surely it (was) impossible for Eva Marion Munro to succeed her father and assume chiefship of Clan Munro? Her son (Patrick) was not of the male line, sure the legitimate successor was Sir George Hamilton Munro, 12th Baronet (1864-1945) and that his descendent, Sir Ian Kenneth Munro, 17th Baronet of Foulis-Obsdale (b. 1940) is the legitimate chief? What evidence is there of Hector W. Munro's legitimacy? There's even a minor, cadet branch, Munro Baronets, of Lindertis (1825). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.97.2.120 (talk) 01:42, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I dunno about Clan Munro in particular, but it is not impossible for the chiefship of Scottish clans to pass from a female chief to her childern. Hector Munro of Foulis is the legitimate chief because the Lord Lyon considers him so. Many of chiefs today do not descend in the male line of chiefs. Though, in the cases that i've noticed, its a pretty recent turn of events. Durie, Hay, Kincaid, MacDougall, Mackenzie, Maclachlan, Macleod, Munro, (and likely Johnstone & Wedderburn and possibly i think Arhur) are examples of clan chiefs that have been granted the chiefship through the female line in recent times. There are probably more. I think you'd agree its pretty common, atleast not unheard of, and oh-so stereotypical for the aristocracy to merely change their surname in order to inherit lands, possessions and titles. Modern clan chiefship is really no different. It is something clan societies don't advertise too much..--Celtus (talk) 06:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I can think is that there was no near male descendant to whom the torch would be passed. Ordinarily the Chiefship would pass to a descendant of a brother of one of the previous chiefs of antiquity, but I guess there weren't any by 1935. That seems unlikely however. If that isn't the case, then I guess it was felt that in the modern era it was OK for a woman to take the helm. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.126.240.165 (talk) 00:08, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

It was actually because Eva Marion Munro was the nearest blood relative to the chief and therefore inherited the right to be chief. Being male or female was irrelevant. Long gone were the times when a chief had to be male. Of course her son had a different surname; Gascoine, but he took his mother's maiden name, Munro instead. Only by changing his surname to his mother's maiden name; Munro (and being a blood relative), did the Lord Lyon allow him to become chief of the Clan Munro. At the end of the day the current chiefs are descended from the old chiefs, just through a female line, its happened with alot of clans even the Mackenzies.QuintusPetillius (talk) 19:25, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

DNA

I just checked the DNA webpage which is cited in the article. It doesn't actually say that those dozen or so I2as represent the original chiefs. I think that we're drifting into 'original research' territory here, which is easy to do with amateur/hobbyist DNA projects. Like, just because some guy on the net claims his ancestry represents an old or chiefly line doesn't actually mean it's the truth. There's a new book by Alastair Moffat on DNA and goes on about clans and such [2]. I'm not saying it's the greatest source, but it is published and is at least co-authored by a geneticist. I haven't read it, but maybe the Munros are mentioned in it, I know a number of clans are.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:46, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Just to clarify, on the page linked which shows the DNA results. Kit number 107776 which has the name "Munro B.t" is the current Munro "Baronet" of Foulis-Obsdale. He represents the senior line of Munros who are descended in the direct male line from the orignal Munro chiefs of Foulis. As you can see he has the DNA halo group I2A and those within that group are all related to him through the male line. Clearly the vast majority of those tested are not only unrelated but have the DNA halo group R1B which is completely different. I know it will spoil some people's imaginations. But the traditions that everyone in a clan who had the same surname were all related is simply not true. That was something made up by Victorian era romantic writers. The fact of the matter is many of the unrelated members of the clan took the surname of their chief to show allegiance and to show that they were part of that particular clan.QuintusPetillius (talk) 11:25, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

Motto

The motto "Dread God" - is this a reference to the archaic definition of the word 'dread', to be interpreted as 'respect' rather than 'fear'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.234.155 (talk) 23:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Munro/Munros/Montrose etc

Another theory as to the origin of the name Munro is that it had the same origin as the name and town of Montrose which is on the east coast of Scotland and was originally known the by the name of "Munros" - which meant "the hill promontory" or "the moss promontory". This would agree with the location of the territory of the Clan Munro chiefs on the the "promontory country", on the northern shore of the Cromarty Firth The surname Montrose appears in records as Monros or Munroos until 1385: Mestre Mathen de Monros, a clerk in Perth in 1296, John de Monros, vicar of Tarwais in 1342 and Nicholas of Munroos in 1375. It is worth noting that the first Clan Munro chief who can be proven by contemporary evidence, Robert de Munro, who died in 1369, is also found recorded by the surname "de Monroo". So there were in fact people with spelling variations of the name Munro before the first Munro cheif.QuintusPetillius (talk) 18:38, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Another tidbit. The article on Robert de Munro, 8th Baron of Foulis says that he is the first chief on record, with a charter dating between 1333 and 1350. The earliest record of the name that George Fraser Black gives is that of "Robert de Munro", who was granted a charter by Robert Bruce (d.1329), for the lands of "Counetis" in Strathspey, and the lands of "Cupermakcultis". Black doesn't appear to have regarded this man as the first recorded chief. I wonder if he was connected to the family or if this is just another example of men bearing similar names. Here's a transcription of the record in an old book: [3]. He's "Roberti de Monro".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:07, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi Brianann. Robert de Munro who died in 1369 was indeed the first Munro chief who can be proved by contemporary evidence. However this how I think Black may have got confused with another Robert Munro. You see before Robert de Munro (d. 1369) there are actually ten "traditional" Munro chiefs whose existence cannot be proved by contemporary evidence. One of those "traditional" chiefs was another Robert Munro (traditionally the 6th Baron) who lived during the reign of Robert the Bruce. This Robert Munro is said to have been granted a charter during the reign of Robert the Bruce - and it is recorded in Robertson's Index of Charters - which is the book you have linked. However as the original charter cannot be found then the entry in Robertson's Index of Charters cannot be proved/verified. I am pretty sure that it is this Robert Munro (6th Baron) that Black is referring to as the first chief. Of course this makes Robert de Munro who died in 1369 traditionally the 8th Baron but first chief by contemporary evidence. If you look at the article: Chiefs of Clan Munro you will find Robert Munro, 6th Baron listed near the bottom in the traditional chiefs section.QuintusPetillius (talk) 09:23, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

A regiment of Munro Horse in Sweden?

Going through some text books from Sweden I was struck by an image in one of a banner / regimental colours identified as "Monro's Regiment of Horse":

Göte Göransson, Gustav II Adolf och Hans Folk (1994). On p.162 we are shown 3x colours for Colonel Monro's Horse regiment (top three. Same page Colonel Robert Monro's Infantry (bottom left).

I have reviewed all the recent literature on the Scottish contribution to Swedish service (Ailes, Grosjean, Murdoch and Grosjean etc) and find no mention of this horse unit and wonder if this can be correct. There are a number of problems. No Monro horse regiment is listed in the Swedish Military Archives. Secondly, the mounted soldier is shown holding a field marshal's baton, and no Monro made it above the rank of colonel in Swedish service. I suspect, therefore, that this is a mis-identification OR the author of the book (basining his sketches on standards kept in the Swedish Military Museum), has mistaken a mounted officer in an infantry unit (quite standard) and thought they were cavalry. Any thoughts - anyone else ever heard of a Monro Cavalry unit in this period? Tentsmuir (talk) 09:33, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

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