Talk:Client state

Expanded

Added to page so it isn't just about the specific example of 20th century client states. --Masamax 22:18, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

An utter pile of drivel and bad writing by multiple editors

• Special:Diff/1018599511 — Denmark is a "client state" of the United States because an LA Times headline uses the hyperbolic "51st state" to describe some celebrations in a park.
• Special:Diff/1030215131 — Romania is a "client state" because an unidentified person once said so on a personal WordPress 'blog.
• Special:Diff/1030643997 — France is a "client state" because an expert in social media says so, Norway because of an attention-seeking rant by someone on a book-promotion tour.
• Special:Diff/1031254739 — India is a "client state" because of an opinion piece by an Indian politician.
• Special:Diff/1037669004 — Southern Sudan is a "client state" because of an article that says no such thing and instead discusses the forces behind it becoming an independent state.
• Special:Diff/1040558670 — The United Kingdom is a "client state" because someone suggests that it ought to be, and because a politician hyperbolically says to do stuff in order to avoid becoming a 51st state.
• Special:Diff/1045731655 — Australia is a "client state" because of name-calling hyperbole from politicians, rather than any sort of expert, or even inexpert, analysis.
• Special:Diff/1045732520 — The United Kingdom is a "client state" because Julian Assange's mother says so.
• Special:Diff/1046033922 — Australia is a "client state" because of an opinion piece in The Age.

And there's much more where those came from. It accounted for almost two-thirds of the total size of the article at one point.

This is complete nonsense, hugely misinforming readers, and crass and thought-free writing based upon conflation, phrase matching instead of reading, opinion as fact, twisting of sources, and outright bad sources. You want people with good reputations doing proper expert analysis, not people calling names to get attention to their political parties, sons, and book sales. And stop hiding behind the passive voice with "has been described as".

Uncle G (talk) 03:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

• That's all fine and dandy, but the UK is a client state of the US because Matt Johnson said so. Drmies (talk) 18:27, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Problems in the 21st century section

This article has a lot of problems, so I'll just list them.

• 68 entries in total have no references.
• The source for Nepal is a Huffington Post article from 2010. WP:RSP says "In the 2020 RfC, there was no consensus on HuffPost staff writers' reliability for political topics. The community considers HuffPost openly biased on US politics. There is no consensus on its reliability for international politics"
• The first citation for Djibouti being a Japanese client state is by a website called "Japan Press Weekly", which wiki says is the English-language edition of the Japanese Communist Party's newspaper . The tone of the articles seems very NPOV. The second citation is from a Shūkanshi newspaper called ja:SPA!. Shūkanshi's are "a Japanese term for any weekly magazine, including politically provocative weekly tabloid newspapers." Does not seem like a credible source in that case
• The reference for Djibouti being a French client is a Washington Post article from 1993 (This is in the 21st century section).
• The sources for Haiti are 1. a dead link and 2. an article talking about an UN peacekeeping mission, no mention of client states.
• The source for Cote d'Ivoire is an article from 2004
• Azerbaijan's entry needs a better source than the Cato Institute. WP:RSP says "The Cato Institute is considered generally reliable for its opinion. Some editors consider the Cato Institute an authoritative source on libertarianism in the United States." but that "There is no consensus on whether it is generally reliable on other topics"
• The source for Liberia being än US client comes from a 1996 Washington Post article, which says "...marked another low in the country's transformation since 1989 from a reliable U.S. client state into a chaotic battle zone devastated by tribal-based civil war." So the motion it was an US client state was already outdated by 1996, and this is supposed to be about 21st century client states
• The reference for South Korea comes from "Liberation News", which is the official newspaper of Party for Socialism and Liberation. Not a neutral source
• The source for Denmark is a Washington Post article from 1989, which doesn't say anything about the country being a client state.
• The source for Iceland is an article from 1983
• The source for Norway is a 2002 opinion piece from a newspaper owned partly by the Norwegian Red Party
• The source for Poland is an opinion piece from a libertarian-conservative magazine
• Romania's source is an WordPress blog
• Slovakia's sources don't seem to be particularly reliable either. Appear to be opinion pieces
• UK's entry are either opinion pieces, or someone expressing their opinion
• Australia citations are also opinion pieces

There quite many of these so I won't go on any further, but this whole section needs to be rewritten Rousillon (talk) 17:12, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Fortunately, the entire 21st century client state section has been removed by @the account 2, and I thank them for that. Maybe a new section about 21st century client states will be made, with actual, proper references this time. If we don't add the section back, we can only assume that by the 21st century, client states no longer exist. Thanks again, for the helpful edits you made, The Account 2.

Sincerely, 49.192.44.178 (talk) 09:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your nice words! Really appreciate it :) The Account 2 (talk) 11:49, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

Hello there! I just want to know, do you use the pronouns he, she, they, or other pronouns? I use he, by the way.

Sincerely, 49.192.44.178 (talk) 12:36, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

I use he too The Account 2 (talk) 12:37, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

The contents in this article are full of subjective opinions with no reference

I was shocked to read this topic as it contains no evidence for many of the cases being listed, the current version seems more similar to an opinion forum rather than a serious information platform, and the definition of a “client state” which shown in this page is flawed and equivocal. I expect more action to be done with the development of page, or I will just propose a deletion of the topic if no one is going to make any improvement over the impartiality or verification of the referring sources before this month. LVTW2 (talk) 05:09, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

USSR and Israel

Agreed, Israel was a client state of the USSR and the academic sources confirm it.

Communist parties worldwide, including in the U.S. and Israel, took their orders from Moscow. Israel's larget political parties from 1947-1977 were socialist/communist. 1st Prime Minister Ben Gurion Famously declared that he is a Bolshevik.

David Ben-Gurion declared: "I am a Bolshevik." https://www.haaretz.com/2013-03-08/ty-article/.premium/nostalgic-for-the-ussr-on-the-kibbutzim/0000017f-e3f9-d7b2-a77f-e3ff98bb0000

https://muse.jhu.edu/article/470530

https://central.edu/writing-anthology/2019/07/10/soviet-foreign-policy-with-isreal/

https://isreview.org/issues/04/Israel_watchdog/

Since we have multiple sources and agreement from editors, this must be added

• Israel (1948-1960s)

Stalin's portraits and flags were everywhere in Israel during the 1940s and 1950s, including government offices. https://www.palestineposterproject.org/publisher/israeli-communist-party-maki

Walapo (talk) 17:06, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

"Agreed"? You posted this comment as a response, but nobody said anything on this talk page about the USSR until you brought it up. Who are you agreeing with? What are you talking about with "multiple agreement from editors"? You agreeing with yourself is not how consensus works.

As for the sources, what you are posting here would be original research, except I don't think you actually read your own sources. Per the International Socialist Review article: Nevertheless, Zionist leaders like Ben-Gurion knew that the USSR could not provide the kind of financial and military aid to Israel that the U.S. and American Zionist organizations could. They continued to woo the U.S. to become Israel's chief patron.[1] Per your source, Ben-Gurion described himself as a bolshevik in 1923, decades before the modern state of Israel even existed. It is not enough to dance around decades worth of sources to find those which mention Stalin or communism. Your own sources undermine your point. You need reliable, independent sources which directly describe Israel as a "client state" of the USSR. Do not ignore context. Without good sources, this is a non-starter. Grayfell (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

You are aware that Marxist/socialist parties in the 1940s/50s were directly under the control of USSR?

You do know that Gurion was a leading member of the Marxist Poale Zion party which then became Mapai?

Israel was ruled under Mapai socialist political party. USSR helped establish Israel in 1948 as a socialist client state. Gurion, like Broz Tito tried to pull a Yugoslavia to get more financial aid from both the West and the East, since Israel had huge support from western backers like Bronfman, Lansky....

This is why wikipedia exists, to educate uninformed people who are not aware of the facts that Mapai socialist political party in Israel, and was the dominant force in Israeli politics until its merger into the modern-day Israeli Labor Party in 1968. During Mapai's time in office, a wide range of progressive reforms were carried out, as characterised by the establishment of a welfare state, providing minimum income, security, and free (or almost free) access to housing subsidies and health and social services. Walapo (talk) 21:34, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

here is a useful book detailing the alliance between Israel and USSR.

———— (1974). The Forgotten Friendship: Israel and the Soviet Bloc, 1947–53. Champaign, Illinois: University of Illinois Press. ISBN 0252003969. LCCN 74007121. OL 5046679M. Walapo (talk) 14:23, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

References