Talk:Coat of arms of France

Discrepancy

There is a discrepancy between the French and English versions of this page- the coat of arms for the second and first empires seem to have been switched in the table- specifically the all-golden one. Is this Napoleon I's coat, or Napoleon III's?

TVTMaster (talk) 14:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Comments

This coat of arms cannot be considered as an official symbol of french Republic!...

(I am a frenchman, teatcher of History near Paris...)

>>> I AM A FRENCHMAN TOO, TEATCHER TOO... I TOTALLY AGREE... THIS PAGE IS A SHAME !!!... THIS UNOFFICIAL "SYMBOL" CANNOT BE CONSIDERED AS THE SYMBOL OF FRANCE !!!... THE ONLY OFFICIAL SYMBOL OF FRANCE IS HIS FLAG... (CONSTITUTION DE 1958) COULD BE STRANGE FOR OUR FRIENDS IN UK... BUT FRANCE CANNOT HAVE COAT OF ARMS AS SYMBOL, BECAUSE WE ARE A REPUBLIC !!!... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.2.101.42 (talk) 02:33, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Drôle de conception de la République ! Je te signale que Cuba est une république, de doctrine socialiste, qui plus est, et qu'elle a conservé son symbole purement héraldique. D'autres symboles plus ou moins armoriés constituent l'identité de l'immense majorité des États du monde, conjointement avec le drapeau national. Et ceci aussi bien pour les républiques que pour les monarchies. Ne serais-tu pas légèrement incompétent dans tes fonctions de professeur d'histoire ? J'espère que tu ne te permets pas d'incorporer des insanités républicanistes intégristes à tes élèves ou étudiants. Pour finir, je te signale que c'est Jacques Chirac qui a fait réintroduire le faisceau de licteur dans la communication de la présidence de la République, toujours utilisé aujourd'hui par Nicolas Sarkozy, et que son caractère non officiel peut être comparé au blason des États-Unis qui ne répond à aucune disposition de la Constitution américaine.--Cyril-83 (talk) 14:25, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm French too. My conception of the Republic is that for such things as an official national emblem, there should be a vote, at least of the National Assembly/Senate, but maybe even a referendum. No such thing happened, so the emblem discussed by this wikipedia article is rightly so called unofficial, because it is. If the president can change it on a whim, it can't be seriously considered as representing the country or the Republic (the president himself being called president of the French Republic and not of France, by the way). Aesma (talk) 16:43, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

@ user, having a 'national coat of arms' is not something that is unique to monarchies, plenty of republics past and present have had and do have them.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:20, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

France vs French Republic

This article has been renamed from "Coat od arms of the French Republic" to "coat of arms of France".

This is fine by me, but it is important to understand that the two do not mean the same thing. With the present denomination, the proper "coat of arms of France" would be three golden Fleurs de lys on a blue field with the Order of the Holy Ghost, etc. , plus the history of the evolution of the coat of arms.

The "coat of arms of the French Republic" is not a "proper" coat of arms, and it does not replace the coat of arms of the kingdom of France. I think that the matter should be addressed, and frankly, I think that have two separate articles could be an option. Rama 08:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Only it does replace the Arms of the Kingdom of France: the c1399-1792 and 1814/1815-1830 Arms of the French Kingdom were declared to be simply personal/family arms since 1830, and had not been Arms of Dominion since 1830. Moreover; they had been replaced 1830-1831 by the Arms of the House of Orleans, 1831-1848 by the Arms of the July Monarchy (or, more accurately, King Louis-Philippe), 1804-1814/1815 and 1852-1870 by the Arms of the French Empire (or, more accurately, Napoleon I and Napoleon III), and there have been periods (1792-1804, 1848-1852, and 1870-1898) when the French Republic was not armigerous/did not use a Coat of Arms, notwithstanding the fact that between 1790 and 1804, heraldry was abolished and declared illegal in France.

JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 14:36, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

Coat of arms of the Ancien Régime?

Is the pre-1789 coat of arms anywhere to be found on wikipedia? It would be nice to add its image to this page, to contrast it with the current emblem.

rooster?

Wasn't there also one with a rooster? --Chris (クリス • フィッチュ) (talk) 17:25, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

No.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Heraldic rules

How does this emblem not respect heraldic rules (as the article claims)? Funnyhat (talk) 04:28, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Because, strictly speaking,it isn't a coat-of-arms at all; because there is no shield.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 13:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Yet the first line of its description states: "The emblem consists of: A wide shield". I've tagged it as unsourced for now. Laurent (talk) 13:25, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

well, there is a case that could be made for it satisfying some of the rules of heraldry, but this is classic pseudo-heraldry. a real heraldic shield wouldn't have anything in front of it for starters, and it also has no charge.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 19:17, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

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France Ancient, France Ancien, France Ancienne

There is a difference in spelling (France ancien vs France ancienne) used on this page and on similar pages. E.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleur-de-lis More of a problem for the other pages, since I believe it is France ancien even if you would expect the feminine for France, it is the masculine (for écu, probably, or perhaps blazon?) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.68.171 (talk) 03:41, 17 October 2013 (UTC)

rooster? (2)

Sometimes one sees a depiction of a rooster, but that is not shown.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Because any use of a rooster (or cockerel; for Brits) was unofficial.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 11:26, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

France Modern/Moderne

The article alternates, for no good reason that I can see, between the spellings "France Modern" (which seems unlikely, since ordinary French words - as opposed to a few proper names - don't end in -rn) and "France Moderne" (which is correct French). I don't know for certain which is right - "France Modern" may be acceptable in heraldic English, alongside "France Ancient" - but the spelling should surely be consistent throughout the article. The same inconsistency occurs in the article on "Fleur-de-lis".213.127.210.95 (talk) 14:15, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

According to this Wikipedia article it may seem modern/ancient is the correct lingo. Iselilja (talk) 07:00, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

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• Parchemin pour l'investiture d'Emmanuel Macron.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

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About the Coat of Arms

This article presents the wrong coat of arms. It misleads people. A few seconds search shows what's the real - or just reading the page in French is enough. 11 March 2021

"Greater version"

There is no citation for the alleged "greater version" of the coat of arms featuring angels, flags, and a mantle being official in any capacity. The external image is a piece of art by Gustave Louis Jaulmes, and there is no other source of this design being used. Only the "lesser" version is used by the government of France and can be considered the real emblem. I request that the "greater version" be removed from the page because it is misleading. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:12, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

Sources for the greater versions

@Di (they-them):, I have added sources to the two files (France & Navarre and France only) and also below. Let's appreciate the Bibliothèque nationale de France for digitising these books for all of us. Every book listed below were scanned after I uploaded the two images in 2009. Sorry for taking so long. --Sodacan (talk) 07:45, 13 October 2022 (UTC)

France and Navarre

Image: Créations des chevaliers de l'Ordre du St Esprit faits par Louis le Grand. (1689).

Image: Recueil de mémoires et documents concernant divers Ordres français ou étrangers. (1700).

Image: Encyclopédie, ou Dictionnaire raisonné des sciences, des arts et des métiers, Volume 2. (1763).

“ Le roi de France.

Porte un écu d’azur, à trois fleurs-de-lis d’or, parti de Navarre qui est de gueule, aux raies d’escarboucle ou chaînes d’or posées en croix, sautoir & orle, l’écu timbré d’un héaume ou casque d’or bordé, damasquiné, taré de front, & tout ouvert sans grilles, ordé de lambrequins d’or, d’azur & de gueule, couvert d’une couronne d’or garnie de huit hautes fleurs-de-lis, le cercle enrichi de pierreries, & fermé par autant de demi-cercles aboutissans à une double fleur-de-lis d’or qui est le cimier de France; pour supports, deux anges vêtus chacun d’un côté d’azur, l’un à droite de France, & l’autre à gauche de Navarre, tenant chacun une banniere aux mêmes armes, le tout sous le pavillon royal, semé de France, fourré d’hermine, frangé d’or, comblé d’une couronne comme la précédente, & sommé d’un pannonceau ondoyant attaché au bout d’une pique, & dessus le cri de guerre, Mont joie S. Denis, l’écu entouré de l’ordre de S. Michel & du S. Esprit. Voyez les explications des ordres.

” — Encyclopédie, ou Dictionnaire raisonné des sciences, des arts et des métiers, Volume 2, Diderot et d'Alembert, 1763.

“ 'Les armes du roi.

Les armes du roi sont deux écus accoles : le premier d'azur à trois fleurs-de-lys d'or, qui est de France; le second de gueules, aux chaînes d'or, passees en croix, en sautoir , & en double orle, renfermant une émeraude en cœur , qui est de Navarre. Ces deux écus sont timbrés d'un casque royal d'or, c'est-à-dire taré de front & tout-à-fait ouvert, assorti de ses lambrequins d'or, d'azur & de gueules , qui sont les couleurs du roi. Surmonté d'une couronne formée de huit demi - cercles & d'autant de fleurs-de-lys d'or, qui est le cimier de France. Les deux écus entourés de deux colliers des ordres du S. Esprit & de S. Michel. Portant deux anges revêtus de dalmatiques, l'une de France & l'autre de Navarre, tenant chacun une banniere, l'une de France & l'autre de Navarre; le tout sous un pavillon semé de France, doublé d'hermines, frangé & houpé d'or, le comble rayonné d'or; sommé d'une couronne royale françoise, avec l'oriflamme ondoyante , semée de France au bout d'une pique ferrée d'une double fleur-de-lys d'or. Pour devise : Lilia neque laborant neque nent; pour cri de guerre Montjoye Saint-Denys.

” — Code de l'humanité, ou La législation universelle, naturelle, civile et politique. Tome 7 (Page 15). De Felice, Fortunato Bartolomeo (1723-1789), 1778.

“ 'Armes Roi de France.

l'écu de France accollé à celui de Navarre. Les armoiries timbrées d'un casque d'or couvert, placé de front, assorti de ses lambrequins d'or & d'azur, & couronné de la couronne-impériale françoise. Les armoiries; aussi entourrées des colliers des ordres de saint Michel & du saint Esprit. Pour tenans deux anges vêtus en Lévites, qui ayant la dalmatìque aux armes de France, soutiennent chacun; une bannière de la même nation. Le tout placé sous un grand pavillon d'azur , fleurdelisé d'or,' & doublé d'hermine , le comble rayonné dor, & couronné de la couronne impériale Françoise; ce pavillon est attaché à la bannière ou oriflamme du royaume. Le cri de guerre des rois de France est: Móntjoye Saint Denis. Leur devise : Lilia neque laborant, neque nent.

” — Encyclopédie méthodique. Économie politique et diplomatique. T. 1, (Page 243). Démeunier, Jean-Nicolas (1751-1814), 1788.

France only

Image: L'Etat de la France, (Page 28), 1789.

“ Armes de France.

Il porte d'azur à trois Fleurs-de-lis d'or, l'écu timbré d'un casque d'or, ouvert, posé defront, accompagné de ses lambrequins d'or & d'azur, couronné de la Couronne Imperiale Françoise, entouré des Ordres du Saint Esprit, & de Saint Michel, soûtenu par deux Anges vêtus en Levites, la dalmatique aux émaux de l'écu, tenant chacun une banniere de France; le tout posé sous un grànd pavillon d'azur fleur-de-lisé d'or, doublé d'hermine, le comble brodé d'or, couronné de la Couronne Imperiale Françoise; le pavillon attaché à l'oriflame, ou banniere du Royaume.

” — Academie des jeux historiques, contenant les jeux de l'histoire de France, (Page 325). Liger, Louis (1658-1717), 1718.

“ Maison de Bourbon.

LOUIS XV. le LXVI. roi de France, depuis l’an 420. est né à Versailles le 15 Février 1710. a succedé à Louis XIV. son bisayeul le premier Septembre 1715. porte: d’azur à trois fleurs de lys d’or, l’écu entouré des colliers des ordres de Saint Michel, institué par Louis XI. le premier Août 1469. & du Saint Esprit , institué par Henri III. roi de France & de Pologne, le 31 Décembre 1578. surmonté & timbré d’un casque d’or ouvert, placé de front, assorti de ses lambrequins d’azur & d’or, surmonté de la couronne impériale françoise, qui est composée de neuf fleurs de lys, huit au pourtour & surmontée de la neuvième. La couronne fermée de France , comme elle l’est présentement, n’a été en usage que depuis François I. auparavant elle étoit simplement ornée de fleurs de lys, depuis ce tems les autres rois ont aussifermé leur couronne de même, soutenue par deux anges vêtus en Lévites avec leurs dalmatiques d’azur à trois fleurs de lys d’or, tenant chacun en main une bannière aux armes de France, le tout placé sous un grand Pavillon royal d’azur semé de fleurs de lys d’or , & doublé d’hermines , son comble rayonné d’or & sommé de la couronne, fermée comme ci-dessus ; pour cimier des banderolles volantes , sur lesquelles est le cri de guerre, qui est Montjoie Saint Denis : c’est une acclamation de joie & d’heureux présage, avec l’invocation de S. Denis , protecteur du royaume de France ; & fommé d’un panonceau, ou oriflamme, ondoyant, semé de France. attaché au bout d’une pique, au-dessus de laquelle est un ruban volant où est écrit la devise de France : Lilia non Labourant neque nent, pour faire allusîon par-l’à à la loi salique, qui exclut les filles de la succession à la couronne.

” — Recherches sur les fleurs de Lys..., (Page XXIX). Unknown author, unknown date (circa 1763).

“ Les Armoires du Roy.

Lorsque l'on veut représenter l'Ecusson des Armoiries du Roy dans tout son appareil, l'on y met seulement les Armes de France, avec les Colliers des Ordres, & l'on timbre l'Écu d'un Casque d'or ouvert, placé de front, assortide ses Lambrequins d'azur & d'or surmonté de la Couronne Impériale-Françoise. L'Écu est tenu par deux Anges vêtus en Lévites, ayant leurs Dalmatiques d'azur à trois fleurs de lys d'or tenant chacun en main une Baniere aux mêmes Armes de France. Le tout est placé sous un grand pavillon d'azur semé de Fleurs de lys d'or, & doublé d'hermines : son comble rayonné d'or, est sommé de la Couronne fermée, surmontée d'une double fleur de lys d'or pour cimier. Des banderoles volantes, sur lesquelles est le Cri de guerre, qui est Montjoye S. Denis, sortent du comble de ce pavillon, qui est surmonté de l'Oriflame, ou Banniere du Royaume, surmontée aussi de la Devise, Lilia non laborant, neque nent, laquelle est tirée de l'éloge que le Fils de Dieu donne aux lys dans l'Ecriture, afin de faire par-là allusion à la Loy Salique, qui exclud les filles de la Royauté.

” — L'Etat de la France, (Page 29). Publisher David père, 1789.

Requested move 19 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:00, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

---

National emblem of France → Coat of arms of France – This is the actual subject of the article, i.e. the heraldic device and previous French coats of arms. It mirrors the title of other countries' coats of arms. There is no reason that this will be confused with Diplomatic emblem of France Sigsjak (talk) 11:24, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

• Weak Support: It seems straightforward, but it would be helpful to get some further clarification. My guess is that the current title stems from the opening line's statement that suggests that France has no official coat of arms. However, that statement itself only pertains to the French Constitution. Later on in the article, we see written: "Among about twenty proposals which were approved by the government, heraldic painter-engraver Maurice de Meyère's composition was formally adopted as the new coat of arms of France." So it seems France does have an official coat of arms. Can anyone more knowledgeable shed light on this? I'd probably still support the move, official or unofficial, as the article also covers the historical coats of arms, but would prefer this point be clarified. Walrasiad (talk) 21:04, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes I agree. The main reason for stating the coat of arms is unofficial would be that no symbol is enshrined in the constitution. But not all constitutions cover national symbols either, so this is not unique. To name this article Coat of arms of France would differentiate it from a range of non-heraldic visual emblems already covered in National symbols of France, such as the Gallic rooster, the great seal or the diplomatic emblem. - Sigsjak (talk) 10:34, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense. I have moved from weak to full support. I would also like that term "unofficial" struck out from the text, if it was indeed officialized later. It is just misleading. Walrasiad (talk) 22:13, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.