Talk:Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority

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Previous talk at Talk:Coat of arms of Palestine

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Photograph at File:Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and Mahmoud Abbas - joint press release.jpeg... AnonMoos (talk) 22:42, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

About the undiscussed split I reverted

I don't see any need to split the article, all "3" emblems are emblems of Palestine, and more importunely Coats of arms are just venerations on the same Coat of arms. I think this article just needs to be organized a bit better. You are of course free to propose that this article be split, but before you do that could you give me a chance to rework it some, after I'm though with it you might not want to split it. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:06, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

OK, I think that about takes care of my reworking. Here's what it looked like before and after. The main differences are that I put the SoP CoA in the infobox where it belongs, and I removed the "State of Palestine" section, which mostly just repeated the first paragraph, and worked what the section said about the scroll into the first paragraph. Still want to split this?

On a related note if this will continue to cover both the PNA and SOP versions it will probably need another name, maybe "Palestinian Coat of Arms" to match Palestinian flag. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 15:54, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

revert

Regarding this revert That the PNA uses the "Palestine" version of the CoA is well sourced, that the State of Palestine also uses it doesn't change that the PNA does. Even putting aside the reasent UN vote and rename of the PNA, as far back as 2009 the PNA Ministry of Information website used the "Palestine" version. These sources also show that the PNA uses the "Palestine" version" [1] and this PDF was issued in July, before the UN vote or rename. That the PNA uses the "Palestine" CoA is clearly not WP:SYNTH, any one of those sources alone shows that. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding this I didn't merge anything, I copied content. This article is about the CoA used by the PNA (and the SoP and PLO emblem), it only makes sense to include info on what CoA the PNA uses. If anything this info belongs on this article more then it does on Coat of arms of the State of Palestine because the info is about what CoA the PNA uses, not what CoA the SOP uses. The articles have extremely slimmer scopes so their going to have extremely slimmer content, the existence of the SOP CoA article does not mean we can't cover the which CoA the PNA uses on this article. The current version of the article states that the PNA doesn't use the "Palestine" version, that it only uses the "the Palestinian Authority" version, and that contradicts RS which shows that the "Palestine" version has been used sense 2009 at the latest. Also you mostly narrowed the scope to just the PNA CoA, the scope has included the both the PNA and SoP CoA sense 2011, there is no conciseness for your narrowing of the scope. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Also the statment "The Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority was the coat of arms used by the Palestinian National Authority between 1993-2012, when it officially became replaced by the Coat of arms of the State of Palestine" is possible WP:OR.

Considering all this I'm reverting, I've made multiple attempts to discuss this with you but you've refused to discuss. Please don't revert unless your willing to discuss, and if you are please explain how it is WP:SYNTH to say that the PNA uses the "Palestine" version even tough they have used it scene 2009, how the existence of Coat of arms of the State of Palestine means that we can't have info about the CoA versions used by the PNA and PNA institutions here (this article deals with the PNA, that article deals specifically with the SOP), and how the mere copying of relevant content from one article to another constitutes merging. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk)

You tried to unliterary narrow the scope of this article to just the PNA even tough this article has covered both the PNA and SOP sense 2011. There is no conciseness to narrow this article's scope, please don't narrow it's scope without conciseness. Also your changes contradict RS that the PNA has used the "Palestine" version well before the upgrade or rename, at least as far back as 2009. I keep asking you to discuss, and you keep refusing to discuss. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Here's another source showing that the PNA used the "Palestine" version well before the UN vote or rename, back in April 2010. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 01:55, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (1)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Withdrawn. Having this RM at this time would be counter-productive. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:47, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

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Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority → Palestinian Coat of arms – To match Palestinian flag and to reflect scope. This article covers both the Palestinian Authority and the State of Palestine and has done so sense 2011. This is long overdue. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:15, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• comment - this is a disruptive move, aiming at deleting/merging the article Coat of arms of the State of Palestine. The related discussion on this disruption is at Administrator's noticeboard.Greyshark09 (talk) 13:12, 13 January 2013 (UTC)
  • No, as I pointed out this article has covered both the PNA and SOP sense 2011. It included two paragraphs that where almost verbatim copies of eatch-other before I worked on it[2], So I reduced the wordiness of this article [3] (the SOP article was then restored despite my above request to discuss before splitting this article). I then worked on this article some more, largely by importing relevant content from Coat of arms of the State of Palestine, but copying within Wikipedia is not the same thing as merging, the articles just have an extremely similar scopes so their going to have extremely similar content.

Anyway I don't see how all this is that relevant to this RM, Coat of arms of the State of Palestine will stand or fall at AFD on it's own merits, "Palestinian Coat of arms" just seems like a better name for this article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 14:37, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

I disagree your complete rewrite of this article from CoA of PNA to Palestinian CoA - you have not got consensus for such change. On the contrary.Greyshark09 (talk) 20:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

No, before either of us edited it it was about both PNA and SOP, and has been scene 2011. You're the one who rewrote it to just be about the PNA. I disagree your complete rewrite of this article from CoA of both to CoA of PNA - you have not got consensus for such change. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:17, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it was your creation of Coat of arms of the State of Palestine that was the disruptive move, aiming to keep this article from covering the State of Palestine, despite the consensus that has existed scene 2011 that this article covers the State of Palestine. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 18:20, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Scope

Please discuss the scope of this article in terms of recent deletion and revert. Please collaborate and compromise if necessary.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:19, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the scope should contune to be the PNA, SOP, and PLO, as it has been sense 2011. Even putting aside the resent UN vote and rename of the PNA, at least as far back as 2009 the PNA was using the "Palestine" version of the CoA (same one the SOP uses) and the only difference between the "Palestine" and the "The Palestinian Authority" versions of the CoA is the Arabic text. One says "Palestine" the other version says "The Palestinian Authority", their otherwise identical, it makes sense to cover them on the same article. Also all three emblems are emblems of Palestine. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Besides there are differences between versions of the CoA's that are larger then the arabic text. This one is black an white, and I've seen a version that's all golden. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 04:29, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Or this one, a yellow-white version used by the PNA ministry of labor. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 05:01, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I guess a large part of my my point is that because an article about just the PNA would nead to cover the "Palestine" version anyway, as it is very clear from RS that the PNA has used the "Palistine" varsion well before the recent UN vote/rename, why not just make that article cover the state sense that's the exact same CoA that's used by the state.

Aslo ar:شعار_فلسطين the aribic wikipedia presents the State and Authorty togheter in it's CoA article (google trenslate) and doesn't seem to have any problem with presenting the "Palestine" version as being used by the Authority. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 06:18, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

On a related note the Coat of arms of the State of Palestine article has allot of info about the PNA and PNA institutions, which seems pretty odd to me. If we're going to have an article specifically about the state, then it should be specifically about the state. Info about the PNA can go on this article, all that article needs is a note that the State's CoA is extremely slimmer to the Authory's CoA. That's probably mostly moot tough, the info about the PNA institutions, both in this article and the State article, would seem to be original research, or at the vary least not in the citation given. The articles use the CoA in PNA websites headers to say which CoA version the institutions have "adopted", but it doesn't seem to be that simple. Take a look this document issued in June from the PNA prime minister's office. It uses the "Palestine" version so it would seem that the PNA PM's office has adopted the "Palestine" version by June then? No, look at the PM office website (here's an archive in case the site changes), it's navbar uses the "The Palestinian Authority" version, so we can't say that the PM's office has "adapted" any specific version. We can't use the navbars to say that an institution has "adopted" a specific version, we can at most say their websites have, aough at that point it becomes trivia. Notice how Coat_of_Arms_of_Israel#Versions mostly talks about the versions used on the websites of Israeli government institutions. This isn't quite the same type of example, but look at6 the CoA used in PNA ministry of labor's navbar (archive) and one of it'd documents. The COA's both say "Palestine" but that's where the similarities end. The navbar uses a grayish version, whereas the document uses a yellowish-whitish version. It would seem that PNA institutions don't adopt a particular version of the CoA, or at least, not consistently. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 03:44, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

For the scope of this article - I think it's contents are OK - explaining that CoAs with both "PA" and "Palestine" texts were utilized since long time ago.

For the scope of CoA of SoP article - it's second sentence is very strange and almost irrelevant for its supposed topic (CoA of SoP) - that sentence is about PNA using "Palestine"-text CoA which obviously is the case since long time ago (which the sentence fails to point out). Also, the CoA of SoP article should be focused more on what CoA SoP has adopted since 1980s, preferably with a source about that (about a presidential decree, etc.), not some RECENTISM about another entity renaming. Japinderum (talk) 06:46, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

I'll remove the bit about the Authority from the State article. Even with info about the history, I don't see how we can have an article specifically about the State that would be distinct enough from this one. This isn't really two CoA's, this is one CoA used by both the State and the Authority. The creation of both would be exactly the same, and the History of both is pretty much the same, it's just that the Authority sometimes uses different Arabic text in the scroll, and they seem to be phasing-out the version with different Arabic text anyway.

Presumably, the PLO adopted the Palestinian flag before the State did (the state was created after the PLO), or before the Authority did (the Authority was created after the State), each adopting it with their own presidential decree (or however they adopted it). Does that mean we should split Palestinian flag into three articles? I think we can cover the different decrees on the same article. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:32, 20 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, currently there's not enough content for a separate article. So, I think a redirect (not delete) is a good solution in this case. I don't know what Greyshark09 thinks or what the AfD procedure prescribes. Japinderum (talk) 09:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

If you think that article should be redirected, you should probably say so at it's AFD. By just putting your opinion here while the AFD is ongoing, it will probably be ignored. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 07:57, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (2)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved as suggested.  Sandstein  20:40, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

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Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority → Coat of arms of Palestine – As discussed above, a new article for Coat of arms of the State of Palestine was recently spun out, but found to have too little separate substance at its AfD, so it's now been redirected back here. Now that it's settled that there needs to be only one article to cover both uses, it makes sense to reconsider a naming change again: since essentially the same CoA is used both for the "Palestinian National Authority" and for the "State of Palestine", a more generic title that covers both these aspects seems preferable. "Coat of arms of Palestine" would seem unproblematic to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

This seems OK. No other countries are called by the title of their government. I can foresee a lot of opposition from people who don't want Palestine to be a state, though. So lets just note that the List of sovereign states article lists Palestine as a state, so in order for Wikipedia to be consistent we should either a) Change the List of sovereign states article or b) Rename this one to "Coat of arms of Palestine".Steve3742 (talk) 16:30, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

In a related issue, as the Coat of arms has changed to now be one saying "Palestine" instead of "Palestinian Authority", shouldn't we use that one as the main picture (with, perhaps, the old one put in the historical it at the bottom)? I think we should do this now, ahead of the requested move. After all, it's the current version, whether people agree with it or not.Steve3742 (talk) 16:27, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

• Considering that this article describes both the PNA/SOP CoA and the PLO Emblem, I think a better title would be "Emblems of Palestine". I'll bodily recognize the article on that bases. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 19:49, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

That should have been "Palestinian emblems" per Talk:Palestinian_flag#Requested_move. Many of the opposes there were little more then "I don't want Palestine to be a country", but uriber had a good point. The CoA is "of Palestine" (i.e. of the Palestinian territories) however the PLO, and be extension it's emblem, isn't just of the territories. My understanding is that the PLO is the "sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people", so like the flag it's emblem of the Palestinian people, wherever they are, not just the territories. I don't think I'm doing a very good job of explaining this. Emmette Hernandez Coleman (talk) 20:37, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.