Talk:Cobi Crispin

Article improvement efforts

Efforts are being made to add content to this article to get it improved enough to nominate for Good Article. Efforts to improve the article are nominally being based on the article about Lauren Jackson given the sheer amount of information available about female wheelchair basketball players when compared to other sports like goalball. Hence, the article could really use a good copy edit, maintaining as much information as possible for the short term until all the content is in to determine what belongs and does not. The goal is to nominate the article for Good Article by the end of September. --LauraHale (talk) 10:49, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Cobi Crispin/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Figureskatingfan (talk · contribs) 20:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi, I'm reviewing this article. It's my practice to fill out the template and then do a more detailed review on the prose and other things as needed. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:45, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

---

Good start, but needs work to get to the point of being a GA. The prose especially needs work, but that's easy. Not so easy are the references.

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   The prose is weak in parts. See below for a more detailed review of the prose, and for feedback and suggestions.

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   I'm AGF, since I'm unfamiliar with the format and structure of sports articles, that it follows convention, and that the tables are done correctly. I suggest that you get someone who knows more to take a look, although it won't affect this GAN.

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. Has an appropriate reference section:

   Structure of ref section fine, no problems here.

   B. Citation to reliable sources where necessary:

   The references are very weak. Some refs don't support the statements they're supposed to support. I found a broken link my first go-through. This area is what makes this article ineligible at this time for GA, but they're fixable. See below.

   I would argue that is not the case, but I have repaired the broken links. The half life of sports links is less than 2 years, so if an article takes twp months to get through a GA review, 1 in 24 links will decay. I've become quite good at repairing broken links. I repaired a Featured Article with dozens of them. Let me know what refs do not support their facts. It is probably an artefact of the copyedit process, and the correct link will be nearby. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:53, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

I understand. I've tried to do that below, in my source review. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

1. C. No original research:

   Looks good.

2. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   Sometimes I find issues with comprehensiveness as I go through the sources, so I'm holding off on reviewing this aspect until after I'm done.

   B. Focused:

   See 3A. above.

3. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   Seems good.

4. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   Good, nice uncontroversial article.

5. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content:

   All fair-use images.

   B. Images are provided if possible and are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions:

   Great images; I really like them.

   The July 2012 photographs were the result of sending a Wikimedia Australia reporter (User:LauraHale, who also wrote most of the article) to cover a tournament in Sydney. The main photograph was the result of User:TaraMacphail obtaining permission from the Australian Paralympic Committee for the use of some of its images. If the GA process allowed it, I would give them co-credit for the article at GA. Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:53, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Well, you could give them credit on the article's talk page with Template:Maintained, which will allow you to describe each editor's part. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Ah, but I am the article's maintainer. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

1. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Both minor and major issues need to be addressed before I can pass it. See below.

Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:07, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Prose review

• I forgot to say above that I tend to copyedit as I go. Please note what I do, and let me know if you disagree with anything.

Personal

• I assume the reason you've titled this section this way was because of the limited information about Crispin's personal life. I can't tell from the source (ref 4), since it's broken. Is there any more information about her out there? Like where she went to college, her parents' names, how many siblings does she have? Does the broken ref or any other sources explain the cause of her disability? Was it genetic? Of course, if the information is unavailable, you can't and shouldn't include it. If it is, you're obligated to include it.
  • Um, no, I'm not obligated. Remember that I have spoken to to many of the Gliders and their families. But the article has to be from reliable sources, and I'm sensitive about including information about people who are living, especially those who are not notable. The articles only have what the athletes have decided to put out there. There was a kerfuffle about us publishing the details of grant money, which some of the athletes did not like, but which the Sports Commission wanted. Some athletes wound up being spoken to. I never even thought to ask any of them about their disabilities though. Added a bit about her university. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Added a bit about her brothers. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:49, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear. I was really referring to this article's comprehensiveness. Most bio articles include information about a subject's parents, how many siblings he/she has; i.e., "Jane Doe was born in New York City in 1927, the eldest child of John and Janet Doe..." And of course I'm not asking you to do OR, although it is cool that you've spoken to these girls. And I get it that you don't ask people with disabilities about their disabilities; that's just rude. If it's in the record, though, you need to include it, which you've done. I was just brainstorming things you should include, for comprehensiveness sake. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:30, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

• • I've added her parents, and her brothers. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• She has lived in Melbourne, Victoria as a result of switching wheelchair basketball club sides,[6] and now lives in Midland, Western Australia. Again, I can't check because ref 6 is broken. I'm pretty sure I know what you mean by Crispin switching sides, but you need to explain what you mean. Where did she live before Melbourne, and what year did she move there? What year did she move to Midland? If you had that info, you could say something like: "In ----, she moved to Melbourne, Victoria so that she could change teams and play for the wheelchair basketball club [name of club if possible] there. In ----, she moved to Midland..."
  • Reworded this. The VIS site should come back. I hope. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    • And she now lives in Ashburton, Vic, as a result of the move to Dandenong. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Other sports she has an interest in include hockey, swimming and touch football. This touches my issues with the sources, so I'll bring it up later. The source (ref 2) states, "She took up wheelchair basketball in 2003, after already having an interest in hockey, swimming and touch football." The way you've worded it makes is sound like these sports are her current hobbies, which may be true, but the source specifically states that she played those sports before basketball. As a result, you need to change this to something like: "She played hockey, swimming and touch football before taking up wheelchair basketball".
  • Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
• Her role models are Liesl Tesch and Al Mosely. You need to identify Tesch and Mosely, since I have no idea who they are, even if they're fellow bb players. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:03, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Well, they were. Liesl has decided that she is a sailor. Added a bit. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)

Now, that is very cool. Although I have to admit, since I didn't understand that she took up Paralympic sailing, I thought, "Who does she think she is, Captain Feathersword"? ;) I'm relatively confident that you get that reference. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Basketball

• You need to briefly identify the Aspire to be a Champion grant. Is it customary in Aussie usage to use single quotes? Actually, quoting the title isn't necessary. I know this is a lesser-known award, but would you put the Heisman Trophy in quotes?
  • Removed quotes. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Please briefly explain the DAS program.
  • Added a bit. I think any more would be off-topic. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Crispin's first national team appearance was in 2006. If there's information available, how did she perform in that appearance?
  • None whatsoever. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Paralympics

• I see that this section is about both the 2008 and 2012 Games. I'm surprised that there's not more info about 2008. If there were, you could expand the information about 2008, and break them up into separate sub-sections.
  • Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Please identify where the 2008 Paralympics were held. I know they were in Beijing, but I'm not everyone.
  • Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• There are too many redlinks in this section. I realize that I previously said that they were okay, but for this section, it's too distracting. I suggest that you remove them, and then re-add them if and/or when articles are created about these teams. See above regarding summer projects. ;)
  • I'm going to do the Germans. The rest can handle their own articles. The Gliders one also needs some love. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• I wonder if this section should be more chronological. You start with discussing the gold medal game against Germany, and then go back to the first game against Brazil. I think it would be better if you say her team won the silver medal in the 2012 Paralympics, and then detail the events in each round, ending with the detail about the finals.
  • Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Other competitions

• Please briefly identify "the Northern Challenge Most Valuable Player". What is it, how prestigious is it?
  • As prestigious as anything you'd find in Fart North Queensland. Lol! Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• You use the phrase "she was a part of" too many times. Please vary the wording some, like use instead "she joined" or "was named" or "competed on" or "was a member of".
  • Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Expand out "U25 Women’s World Championship of Basketball" to Under-25", please. Don't assume that everyone knows what that means, or that we all understand bb-speak. Also, is there a link?
  • No link, I'm afraid. But I would have thought that everyone went to school, and therefore played sport on the the U9 or U15 etc sides. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:30, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• She was the team's top scorer in all but last two matches in the tournament, when the opposition worked on shutting down her ability to take shots. The source puts it this way: "She top-scored in all, but the final two matches when the opposition concentrated on nullifying her influence." This actually gets to my issue with how you integrate sources; make sure that the sources support your statement. Preventing Crispin from taking shots doesn't necessary mean the same thing as "nullifying her influence". Plus, your version is too informal. The easy way to solve this problem is by quoting the source, like this: "...when as reporter Pat Koopman stated, "the opposition concentrated on nullifying her influence" on the games."
  • Done. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• In October 2011, she was named as part of the senior national squad that would compete at the Paralympic qualifying tournament for the 2012 Summer Paralympics. I wonder if this statement might fit better in the section about the Paralympics. Do we know anything about how she and the team did?
  • Oh yes. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Club basketball

• Starting in 2009, she played for the WNWBL's Dandenong Rangers. This is chronologically out-of-order. It's also confusing, because it looks like she played for the Stars in 2008, then for the Rangers in 2009 (ref 3 says she played for them for two years), and then you state that she went back to the Stars in 2010, and back to the Rangers in 2011. Is there any explanation for the switches?
  • I'll have to ask her. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Her team won the WNWBL title in 2011.[24] The source gives a little more information about the game; you should include it.
  • What is really notable is that a team of seven contains six Gliders. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• As a non-fan, I'm a little confused about the last two charts. Are they Crispin's stats for club bb only? If so, could you create another sub-section to put them in, perhaps entitled "Club basketball statistics"? Please disregard if that's untenable. You also use the same reference (#27) for all the stats. I wonder if instead of listing the same ref for them all, you can state in a note something like: "Statistics from Basketball Australia", and then include the source info. Again, disregard if that's a ridiculous suggestion. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:34, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • They are in the Club section. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Lead (I always review the lead last, after I become familiar with an article.)

• The Victorian Institute of Sport and Direct Athlete Support (DAS) program have provided assistance to enable her to play. This statement isn't really in the article's body. The body states that Crispin got a scholarship, but it doesn't say that the scholarship "provided assistance to enable her to play". The source simply states that the DAS awarded her the grant, but says nothing about its purpose. Therefore, I think that you need to change the lead to reflect that, and state that she won it from the DAS. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • No, you don't "win" from the DAS. It is a money grant. Added a bit about what a VIS scolarship gets you. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Source review

• Crispin's wheelchair basketball classification is 4.0 point player,[1][2][3][4] and she plays forward.[1] I hope that these refs support these statements. Ref 1 supports it, but I can't check the others because 4 is broken and 3 is inaccessible. Ref 2 doesn't support the first phrase. This brings up an important issue for this article, though: Be careful about WP:OVERCITE. Since ref 1 supports both statements, you only need the one ref. Remember that WP isn't a data dump; it's a summary of what the sources state about a subject. Pick the best and most reliable source and use the others to support other statements.
• As I state above, refs 4 and 6 are broken.
  • Fixed one. The whole VIS site seems to be down, so it should come back up gain. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:16, 5 May 2013 (UTC)
    • Back up now. All refs reported as working. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 2 states that Crispin is a massage therapist. Why don't you mention that? Actually, this touches another issue, the integration of sources. This could be the breaking point of this article, since if you're not including all of the important facts about Crispin that are in the available sources, this article isn't comprehensive enough. IOW, it'd fail on criteria 3A.
  • Added. Hawkeye7 (talk) 08:46, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 5 is also broken.
  • Working! Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 8 takes me to a search-engine type webpage that as of today (5/5/13), lists the 2012-2013 report, and not the 2011-2012 report as your claim states. Please fix this, or use a different source that doesn't do that.
  • If you drop the box that says "year" to 2012 it will give you the figures for 2012. Added 2012/13 to the article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 10 includes Crispin's ranking, which seems to be among the highest on the team. Including it would improve your comprehensiveness problems. Speaking of, as I state above, there needs to be more about the 2008 Paralympics, if it's available.
  • First of all, it is in the article already: "Crispin's wheelchair basketball classification is 4.0 point player". Secondly, she is not the highest classification in the team; KOK and Brideski are also 4.0, and Amber Merrit is a 4.5. The problem is that you can only have 14 points on the court at any given time, so if you have three 4.0s, you need two 1.0s; or two 4.0s and three 2.0s, or some combination like that. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 11 has nothing after 2009.
  • True, but it is only used to source the fact that the team won bronze in Beijing in 2008. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 19 just brings me to the front page of The Telegraph.
  • Repaired. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 23 directs me to what looks like the main page of the Stars' webpage; doesn't support Crispin playing for them in 2010, or what number she wore.
  • Replaced with another reference. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 25 doesn't support your statement. Instead, it brings me to a story about the final game in the 2012 Paralympics between Australia and Germany, which you don't use in your discussion about that.
  • • Yes it does. It lists her team as the Dandenong Rangers. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
• Ref 26 is supportive, but there's more information about the 2012 WNWBL Finals, which you again fail to utilize. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 20:34, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Added a bit. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll give you a week to address the above issues. Let me know if you need additional time. Thanks for the opportunity to learn about such an inspirational young athlete! Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

• All points addressed. If you'd like to see the Gliders twelve deep, I have an article on the whole team, Australia women's national wheelchair basketball team at the 2012 Summer Paralympics awaiting in the GA queue. I was hoping that one day it might become the first Paralympic article to achieve featured status. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:15, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

Ok, looking good. I saw that article in the GA queue (I have several there myself); maybe I'll review it if it's still around when I can review another article for GAC. I've been reviewing lots of basketball articles lately! At any rate, I'll go ahead and pass this now. Congrats, and good luck with your future WP endeavors. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 04:50, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131029193530/http://www.sports.org.au/news/6/269.html to http://www.sports.org.au/news/6/269.html
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150716220220/http://www.sportingwheelies.org.au/our-services/sport/sports-a-z/wheelchair-basketball/minecraft-comets to http://www.sportingwheelies.org.au/our-services/sport/sports-a-z/wheelchair-basketball/minecraft-comets

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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140103233233/http://www.paralympic.org.au/news/gliders-are-osaka-cup-champions to http://www.paralympic.org.au/news/gliders-are-osaka-cup-champions
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20130423130420/http://www.sports.org.au/athletes-profiles/221-u25-wheelchair-womens-team-and-championship to http://www.sports.org.au/athletes-profiles/221-u25-wheelchair-womens-team-and-championship

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