Talk:Coburg Lark pigeon

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Strasser pigeon which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 21:45, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 03 October 2014

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to Coburg Lark pigeon, per the discussion below. This option is demonstrably preferable to the previous title for the time being, any future decisions about parenthetical use aside. Dekimasuよ! 23:03, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

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Coburg lark → Coburg lark pigeon – or Coburg Lark pigeon; This bird is a pigeon, not a lark. 65.94.171.225 (talk) 04:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Move to Coburg Lark pigeon. For better or worse we're consistently capitalizing the formal names of breeds, but not the appended species (except in the rare case that it's uniformly a part of the formal breed name, as is arguably the case in American Quarter Horse and Norwegian Forest Cat, where the result without the species name is intolerably ambiguous (in the real world - I'm talking about what names the breed registries use, not our Wikipedian opinions). "Coburk lark" would be bordering on a made-up name in this case. The page should definitely not be at Coburg Lark (pigeon), per WP:NATURAL policy, and Coburg Lark is wrong, per WP:RECOGNIZABLE and WP:PRECISE.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:17, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

  PS: Coburg Lark Pigeon is definitely wrong, per very reliable sourcing (see below).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

• SMcCandlish ☺, you do well know the reactions to your well reflected moves but probably also know my thoughts about P/pigeons. Sources that I have seen tend to capitalise the word as demonstrated by a search on: Coburg lark pigeon. This is confirmed by the one clear result I could find in Google books.

Oppose first option: Coburg lark pigeon (add) I can't see support for the lower case l which seems to have been wrong in the original rendering. As made clear, its not a lark but a breed of pigeon.

Support second option: Coburg Lark pigeon as clearly supported by sources mentioned below and made intelligible for general readership by the necessary addition of the word pigeon.

Potentially moot suggestion: Coburg Lark Pigeon but not something that I would want to push in light of explanations that follow. The suggestion remains unstruck only for consideration of later readers. The vast majority of instances in which I have seen the word P/pigeon written in any breed context it has been consistently capitalised but, as long as this explanatory word it there in some form, I'm satisfied. Gregkaye ✍♪ 10:33, 3 October 2014 (UTC) edited Gregkaye ✍♪ 15:53, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

@Gregkaye: Few results that such a search turns up are WP:RS, they're people's blogs and classified ads. Many if not most are headings (i.e. capitalized as title case). One single result turned up in Google Books isn't statistically significant. It's pretty much universal across all animal breeding that the species name is included in the breed only in rare cases when the result is intolerably ambiguous to everyone without it, and even then it's a matter of what the actual formal breed standards say (i.e., the WP:OFFICIALNAME). The problem is that you're searching for "Coburg lark pigeon" and netting a) headings and titles, and b) people who like to capitalize, but not any formal breed standards or organizations that publish them. If you search for just "Coburg lark", you find that the primary usage is "Coburg Lark", and RS tell us this is the formal name of the breed, so the WP:COMMONNAME as well as OFFICIALNAME is "Coburg Lark". Here the proposal is to add "pigeon" as WP:NATURAL disambiguation, just as we do for Himalayan cat and Mustang horse.

Actually-reliable sources:

• "Breeds: from the NPA Standard – Table of Contents by Groups". NPAUSA.org. [American] National Pigeon Association. 2014. (Doesn't append "Pigeon" to breed names except a handful of exceptions like Ice Pigeon, and Coburg Lark is not one of them. They're consistent about this on other pages.)
• "BPSS Hall of Fame, Show Categories and Trophies". Showpigeons. British Pigeon Show Society. 2014. (Illustrates various breeds, and does not append "Pigeon" to many of them, including not to Coburg Lark, which it specifically mentions as such.)
• Frindel, Jean-Louis; Heftberger, August (2013). "EE-Regulations: Special show classes for fancy Pigeons" (PDF). Brussels, Belgium: European Standardcommittee for Fancy pigeons (ESKT) / Entente Européene d'Ávicultur et de Cuniculture (European Assn. of Poultry, Pigeon, Bird, Rabbit and Cavia Breeders). (Gives breed name as Coburg Lark in third paragraph.)
• "List of the Breeds of Fancy Pigeons" (PDF). Entente Européenne d’Áviculture et de Cuniculture. October 1, 2009. (Gives "Coburg Lark"; appends "Pigeon" only to a select few breeds, consistently with their above publication.)
• Naether, Carl A. (1944). The Book of the Pigeon. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: David McKay Company. pp. ix, x, 28, 153–154, 230, 238. (Uses "Coburg Lark" throughout, does not append "Pigeon" to any breed names but the most ambiguous, e.g. Ice Pigeon.)

And so on. I can't find any authoritative site at all that gives "Coburg Lark Pigeon". The name of the breed is "Coburg Lark", and WP:NATURAL policy tells use to use Coburg Lark pigeon if we want to disambiguate it, which we surely do, because larks are totally unrelated birds.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:50, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

PS: Save these sources: They can be used to build a quick list of the breeds that do consistently, uniformly contain "Pigeon" as part of the formal breed name, for future RMs.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  15:04, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

(Splendid, I think I am in danger of having learned something. I've placed some of the links into the external links section of Pigeon. I've given it my best shot at editing but mention it in case you want to tidy up. Gregkaye ✍♪ 16:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC))

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• Pinging participants of the last RM discussion: @SMcCandlish, PigeonIP, Gregkaye, and SmokeyJoe: -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 04:55, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.