Talk:College town/Archive 1

Archive 1

Claremont

Shouldn't Claremont, California (home of five colleges) and Northfield, Minnesota (home of two) be on this list? I don't know enough about the actual demographics of either town to add them myself; if someone tells me they're not real "college towns" and were left off for a reason I'll believe that. But the omissions seemed glaring to me. AJD 17:24, 17 March 2005 (UTC)

Town by town queries

Durham

Durham, NC isn't a classic college town by any stretch of the imagination, despite being home to Duke University. (Believe me - I wish it were!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.134.113 (talk) 15:29, 9 October 2005‎ (UTC)

I noticed that myself just now upon perusing the list. Durham, NC-Chapel Hill metro area has 450k+ residents. Duke is a university of 13k. This isn't anywhere near enough to be a "college town". More than that the city itself just doesn't "feel" like a college town, unless you are very close to one of the campuses. Treznor 18:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Eau Claire, Wisconsin

I've removed Eau Claire, Wisconsin from the list, as it's not actually a college town, despite its perception as such by the [sometimes rather egotistical and somewhat isolated] imported student population. It is far more a classic market and industrial center... Its leftwing politics are a reflection of Wisconsin politics as a whole, not of the university's presence. Tomer ^TALK 17:59, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

Response To Above: I've re-added Eau Claire to the list. Tomer, you really should not let your political views impact entries in the Wikipedia. Eau Claire by most definitions certainly is a college town. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.134.241 (talk) 15:57, 29 June 2006‎ (UTC)

^^^please sign your entries; I don't see at all how User:TShilo12's comment about Eau Claire had anything to with his personal beliefs or politics. It was plainly stated that the politics of the college dont have an effect on the town as a whole. There was absolutly no mention of his own politics or how they would affect his placing of the town on the list. And to whoever put Eau Claire back, when reverting a removal, please indicate why it deserves to be on there, other than stating that it fits the definition- that was the argument, so pelase support your side, not just state the topic of the argument.--Ricksmith77 00:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Boise, Idaho

Boise is the capital and largest city in the state. I've never visited, but I would think those two facts alone would mean that it's not a "college town" as this entry defines the term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.128.242.94 (talk) 23:46, 13 March 2006‎ (UTC)

Response To Above: The current definition on this page would include Boise. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.53.134.241 (talk) 17:52, 29 June 2006‎ (UTC)

I don't think Boise fits - there is much more going on than the university.--Parkwells (talk) 12:53, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Columbus

Is Columbus, Ohio a college town? Its the state capital and as big as any other city in the state.Havardj Jack 21:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Evanston

What about Evanston, Illinois (Northwestern University)? Like the guy at the top of the page, I don't know enough about the demographics of the town, but it seems to me to be home to a disproportionate number of Northwestern University Students. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.174.60.3 (talk) 18:48, 5 September 2006‎ (UTC)

Arcata

Why was Arcata, California, home of Humboldt State University, removed from this list? Since nearly half the town's population is affiliated with that institution, the removal seems odd. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.67.17.78 (talk) 18:44, 10 October 2006‎ (UTC)

New Wilmington, Pennsylvania

I believe that New Wilmington is a college town, home to Westminster College. As of the 2000 census, the population of the town was a little under 2,500 people. During the academic year, this number rises by nearly 1,600. The vast majority of employees of the college live in the town, and, on average, more than 10% of the local high school enrolls there after graduation. Shall I add it to the list? Cdean 05:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Waterloo, Ontario and London, Ontario

I really don't think these deserve to be called college towns. London is the 10th largest city in Canada and Kitchener-Waterloo is the 11th largest, and that's not including the temporary universtiy residents. The fact is the area the universities are in are extremely small and closed it. It is a deisservice to call these college or university towns when most residents from each city have nothing to do with the university. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.8.15 (talk) 22:53, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Boston, MA

I added Boston. No doubt a lot of people disagree with including it, but I think there's good reason. While it may be difficult to characterize the city as a whole as a "College Town" certain neighborhoods and sections are dominated by students that attend a nearby college. For instance, Mission Hill has a huge presence of Northeastern, MCPHS, Wentworth, Harvard Med, and MassArt students, and Allston has a lot of BU, BC, Harvard, MIT, and Emerson students. The city certainly recognizes this (note the "no more than four" law passed earlier this year in Boston here: http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2008/03/12/boston_imposes_four_roommate_limit_for_students_in_apartments/). For a list of colleges and universities in metro Boston see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_colleges_and_universities_in_metropolitan_Boston. As you can see the college presence is nothing to be overlooked. CDrecche (talk) 02:40, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

The term 'college town' has become such an over-used joke, that in all honesty it shouldn't be too hard to find a third-party source that flat-out calls Boston a college town. Tool2Die4 (talk) 02:57, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Austin

Austin is a city of 750,000 people in a metro of 1.7 million. The city is also the state capital of Texas, has a large high-tech industry, as well as many other industries, i.e. music, film, tourism, etc. Austin does not belong on this list of small towns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.112.237.41 (talk) 03:14, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I removed Austin. A city of this size can not be considered a college town. Austin is a major city which has a university in it's boundaries. Comparable examples would be the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis, the University of Washington in Seattle, and Ohio State in Columbus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.177.100.76 (talk) 02:27, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Springfield, MO

Think about this for a second. While the city only has about 200,000 people, it's home to Drury University, Evangel University, Ozarks Technical Community College (the big branch), and of course Missouri State (the second-biggest college in the state). The large amount of colleges in the city is more than likely a big reason why it won the Missouri Sports Town award from SI a while back.--JY23 (talk) 03:31, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Any city with a reliable source calling it a college town can be added to the article. If you cannot find such a source, you shouldn't add it. Otherwise the article gets swamped with unsourced additions. john k (talk) 18:38, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Studentification

I've created a new page for studentification (which used to redirect to here) because I think it's worthy of an entry of its own. Note also that studentification is not only seen in college towns, as they are defined here; studentification (at least in the UK) is often seen to affect a smaller area of a city that is otherwise not over-run by students. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jamse (talk • contribs) 09:03, 2 December 2005‎ (UTC)

Terminology - "Town-Gown Relations"

User:Treznor changed this section title was changed to "Town Relations" with a comment "Not sure when it became town-gown relations, changing to Town Relations". I have reverted it to "Town-Gown Relations" because I believe it is the correct term to describe the relations between towns and their university neighbours. In response to the query about "when it became Town-Gown", the section has been called Town-Gown since it was created on 6 Feb 2005 (over a year ago).

A quick google for "Town Gown Relations" (with quotes) brings up 25000 results, and all of the results on the first page look like they apply to this subject. A search for "Town Relations" (also with quotes) also gave me 25000 results, but out of the first page only two looked revelant.

I hope that clarifies the matter. Jamse 18:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Definition of Town

Because the article even states that the term "college town" is greatly influenced by American college towns, shouldn't the true definition of a town be that of the American definition, which is its legal status of a city government. In the United States a town can be as small as 100 people or as big as a few hundred thousand, depending on the state's granting of its ncorporatoin status. I know of a number of villages that are well over 100,000, yet of cities one-tenth the size. So if we are going to define a town in the article, shouldn't we use a more definitive term, rather than an opinion developed that has nothing to do with its actual definition?--Ricksmith77 00:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I think that the terms 'college town' and 'university town' should be used as they are the ones in common usage. And it is the job of an encyclopedia to tell people what IS commonly used, not what SHOULD BE commonly used. While there are administrative differences between 'town', 'city', and 'village' these vary from country to country. Furthermore people who refer to a place as a 'college town' rarely bother to consider whether it is technically a city or village, therefore technicalities about administrative terms should be considered outside the scope of this article. --82.71.201.5 (talk) 08:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

World View

This article has been tagged as not presenting a world view. I think the issue here is at least in part due to the use of different terms around the globe. Viz:

• College town
• Student ghetto
• Studentification
• Town and gown

In the UK, for example, the last two are relatively common, the first two are not. I get the impression that this is reversed in the USA.

So, what to do about it? We could merge them all together into one massive article, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be. I think it's likely that the issues actually are different in the different cases. Most UK studentified areas, for example, wouldn't count as college towns, because they are neighbourhoods rather than whole towns.

Incidentally, the above articles are interlinked in their "See also" sections. Perhaps it would be useful to have more prominent links between them in introductions?

Basically, I saw the tag and thought I would kick off a discussion. I don't have a specific suggestion. What do others think? Jamse 12:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted Bath as it is a campus university and not a 'college town' whatsoever. I'm also not really sure that York counts either, but I'll leave it for now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.233.137 (talk) 13:34, 29 December 2006‎ (UTC)

Removed Newton, Waltham MA, USA

Both fail the "difference between 'college town' and 'town with college' test. Neither is dominated by a campus. I grew up in Boston, and went to grad school in Athens GA, so I know the communities and I know what a real college town is. I doubt Worcester belongs, but I have no direct experience with the city. From all reports, Northampton and Amherst are definitely in. MarkinBoston 17:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

UK examples

As others have noted, the idea of a College town does not fit countries other than the USA. The examples of UK towns has some very odd examples. Some such as Nottingham University and Manchester University are just parts of a town that has wider significance. Durham is a cathedral city of some significance and certainly not just a college town. There are problems here. --Bduke (talk) 11:36, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Not a UK phenomena?

The claim that college towns are purely a US phenomena is silly. Cambridge and Oxford are archetypal college towns. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.196.203.28 (talk) 13:03, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I know I replying to an old comment, but it fits my concerns. I agree Cambridge is a college town, but Oxford is much larger and was for quite a while dominated as much by the Morris Car Works in Cowley as it was by the university. It is stretching it a lot to say that cities of half a million people are college towns. Someone on this talk page suggests Leeds is. Really? Birmingham is listed. Again a large major city, not dominated by higher education. Even Belfast, Nottingham and York are not really college towns. The UK list is completely unsupported by any definition of college town. If the examples above are included, why not Sheffield, Liverpool, Lancaster, Brighton, Norwich and many others. The UK list is really terrible. --Bduke (Discussion) 08:02, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

What in the world are the criteria here?

Why is Durham, N.C., listed (population 200,000, about 20,000 students), but not Syracuse, N.Y. (population 150,000, about 20,000 students)? Why aren't archetypal college towns like Austin and Columbus, homes to two of the largest universities in the country, listed, while Fairfax, Virginia, the site of a large school, admittedly, but essentially a commuter school, is? What, in general, determines whether a city is listed or not? The list seems to have been entirely created by random accretion and deletion. There should be some sort of criteria for this. john k (talk) 13:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I am totally with you on this. Syracuse is definitely a college town; remember you have SUNY Upstate there as well. I don't think this article takes into consideration the cultural impact of the university in the city. You can't go anywhere without being reminded of SU's presence.Jzcrandall (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree - and Fairfax, VA is definitely not a college town. George Mason U is growing in importance, but a commuter school does not have the same impact or cultural sense.--Parkwells (talk) 12:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Richmond, VA

Personally I am on the bubble as to whether or not Richmond, VA should be considered a college town. It is home to University of Richmond and Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU has a very large presence in the Richmond area - almost equivalant to Michigan's presence in Ann Arbor or Florida's presence in Gainesville). However, it is more predominantly the Capitol of Virginia and home to many Fortune 500 companies, which almost seem to shadow VCU and UR's presence.Jzcrandall (talk) 19:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Original research

Editors of this page should read and consider carefully the policy No original research. The list of college towns here seem to me clearly to fall foul of that policy, since the only criteria for inclusion (if there are any) are determined by the editors rather than by cited sources. Reliable sources should be provided to back up inclusion in the list. If it continues to be unsourced, the entire list will have to be removed. Chick Bowen 19:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm in agreement here but I'm seriously leaning towards just deleting the list. It's subjective and ambiguous. What defines a college town? If needed, there can be a prose section that describes the more obvious and notable college towns (like Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, etc; generally places that can be more easily referenced), but a list isn't necessary. As there are no references for the list section as of yet I think it should just be deleted now...but I won't do so quite yet. bob rulz (talk) 07:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I went through and deleted the most blatant violations, but in all honesty, the list should just be scrapped. Maybe let people start over one by one, with cites for each. WikiKingOfMishawaka (talk) 10:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I have done this. Thank you both for your thoughts. The list could certainly be rebuilt with a citation for each entry, but as Bob says, it would be much better to describe the most notable towns in prose. Chick Bowen 16:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the list is a good thing, if problematic. Obviously, criteria can be difficult, but surely there are places that are obviously college towns. I don't see why listing some of these is a problem. Obviously you get to weird points where it's hard to define. But surely there are places that would not be controversial, and it seems like it would be sensible to list them here. Let's see if sources can be found. john k (talk) 23:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Nobody has a problem with a list. Thing is, you just need a reliable, third-party source that verifies such-and-such town is actually a college town. The list grew to absurd proportions, essentially including every metropolitan area with a university. Tool2Die4 (talk) 00:32, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Towns like Tempe, South Bend, and Tallahassee aren't college towns. And that was just at a quick glance. This is the exact reason the list was deleted in the first place. Tool2Die4 (talk) 01:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you're getting the picture. I'll check back tomorrow to go back through the list. Tool2Die4 (talk) 02:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've added references for a fair number (including Tallahassee, which you just said was not a college town). I've removed a couple where I couldn't find good references on searching. john k (talk) 02:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to remove everything immediately? It makes finding sources much harder when I also have to reconstruct the whole list. john k (talk) 15:12, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability is the singular most important ideal on Wikipedia. If you can't verify it, it doesn't belong in the article. Doesn't work the other way around. Tool2Die4 (talk) 15:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Wait a minute. You're an administrator, and you don't understand this fundamental concept of Wikipedia? That's downright scary. Tool2Die4 (talk) 15:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That one has not yet verified something does not mean that it cannot be verified. One should exercise restraint about removing just as much as about adding. Remove if you think it's unlikely a source can be found, or if you dispute the designation. Do you really think that one cannot verify that Bloomington, Indiana, is a college town? I had not yet verified it at the time you removed it, but it's pretty obviously something that can be verified, and removing it from the list just makes the whole process more difficult, especially since I'm obviously continuing to work on it. And please don't lecture me about the fundamental concepts of Wikipedia. I've been here a hell of a lot longer than you have. john k (talk) 17:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

You'd think that in that "hell of a lot longer" timeframe, one would've figured out how to properly format a reference and reference list also. When I run across admins like you, all I can do is have a good laugh at the RFA process. Tool2Die4 (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

So you're basically an asshole, then? john k (talk) 18:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've now fixed the references. Any more problems, tool? john k (talk) 18:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Could we get a Google map of these? talk (talk) 19:48 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Princeton

Princeton just happens to be a town with a college in it. There's very little interaction between the two. I would suggest removing it from the list of "college towns". RobHar (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It's got a third-party cite that identifies it as such. Tool2Die4 (talk) 00:45, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I saw that, but it's just not really a "college town". Here, for example, is an article from the Princeton Alumni Weekly that discuss some facets of how it is not a college town: [1]. RobHar (talk) 01:31, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Obviously Princeton is not a typical big state college college town in the sense of Ann Arbor or Gainesville, or whatever. But Gumprecht (who is the main source for the list) defines the term rather more broadly to include a lot of places that aren't typical college towns in that sense. I don't think it should be removed. john k (talk) 08:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This article is about typical college towns. The introduction makes that clear. It states that "college towns in all cases are so dubbed because the presence of the educational institution(s) pervades economic and social life". This is not true in princeton. If Gumprecht defines the term more broadly, then it is not an appropriate reference for this article, and does not support the inclusion of Princeton in this list. RobHar (talk) 19:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know, Gumprecht is just about the only academic to write extensively about college towns. He literally wrote the book about college towns. If he is not an appropriate reference for this article, I can't imagine what would be. If the introduction to this article is in conflict with Gumprecht's definition (I am not convinced it does - just because Princeton does not fit comfortably in the mold of an Ann Arbor does not mean that the university's presence does not pervade the life of the town), we should change the introduction, not exclude Gumprecht. john k (talk) 21:49, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

More specifically, Gumprecht's main criterion (but not his only one) appears to be enrollment as a percentage of population. He used 20% as the cut off (although he also discusses some cities where enrollment is a lower percentage but that presumably fit other criteria). Princeton's enrollment is 46% of the population of the town. That's not borderline - that's an enormous portion of the town. So, yeah, there's no student houses with sofas on the porch, and no big student bar district, and whatever. But it is pretty hard to be a third of the town and not to pervade economic and social life in other ways. I'd pretty strongly oppose removing Princeton from the list, and much more strongly oppose using your anecdotal sense of Princeton not being a college town as an argument for excluding Gumprecht's work from this article, which would be absurd. john k (talk) 21:55, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

To say that Princeton University's enrollment is 46% of the population is a false statistic. Princeton, NJ consists of the Borough of Princeton and Princeton Township (the borough being completely contained within the township), and Princeton University's main campus is in both. The combined population of the Borough and the Township (according to wiki) is 31,037; thus the undergraduate enrollment of PU represents 15.8% of the population of Princeton, NJ (adding in graduate students gives 23.6%) a far, far cry from 46%.

I know that my anecdotal sense of Princeton is not a reliable source, I am simply mentioning it because I believe that there is a problem with this article, and though I may not be used as a reference, I was hoping that my explanations would lead to finding out what is true. I had also scoured the web to find other sources and only found Gumprecht; having a single source for an article is hardly reassuring, and not terribly reliable: I like my truths to be confirmed by several sources. Notice that I did not come to this article and remove Princeton, I simply came to the talk page to discuss its removal.

Maybe there are no other sources except Gumprecht, but that is no reason to assume Gumprecht is an appropriate reference. Maybe there are no references for this article as it stands. If you would rather change the introduction to be in line with what Gumprecht uses as a definition, then I find that to be a perfectly fine solution. Presumably, Gumprecht gives a definition of what he is talking about... if not, how can we include his book as a reference if we don't even know what he's talking about?

As for pervading social social and economic life, the undergraduates basically stay on campus or go to New York. They don't need bars or anything like that because they have their eating clubs. Princeton basically functions as a boarding school: "More than 95 percent of students live on campus in dormitories" (according to the PU wiki article). The town is a pretty little town with a lot of history (independent of the university) so people from surrounding areas visit it on weekends and such to just stroll around with their family, I'm sure that has a large economic and social impact. RobHar (talk) 22:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I suppose it is the borough of Princeton, rather than the borough+township, that is being considered. If you want to link to Borough of Princeton, New Jersey instead of just Princeton, New Jersey, that would seem appropriate. (I see that 40% of the population of the borough is aged 18-24, which suggests the university is largely located there). This may be a bit misleading, but whatever. As far as it goes, it seems as though Gumprecht is the only academic to really write in detail about college towns - I don't see why he should not be considered a reliable source. As far as student life - yeah, the undergrads stay on campus. A university is more than just undergraduates. The presence of thousands of graduate students and faculty members in the vicinity surely has some impact. Obviously, again, Princeton is not a particularly typical college town. It isn't Charlottesville or Athens or whatever. The university is isolated from the town's life to a much greater extent than most schools of comparable size. I suspect, though, that you'll find that the university still does dominate the town's life in a lot of ways - it's surely the largest employer, for instance. I agree that we should ideally discuss Gumprecht's views in more detail - the specific definitions he uses don't seem to be available in the online material, so someone would have to look it up more specifically. But in the interim, I think including in the list places noted as college towns by the guy who wrote the only book about college towns seems reasonable. Specific caveats can of course be discussed in individual articles (and I think that some of the other places on the list are even further from the archetypical college town than Princeton is.) john k (talk) 03:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Move list to separate article

The long list of US college towns overburdens the article and should be made a separate article.--Parkwells (talk) 12:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)