Talk:Colombia

Incorrect statement on economy

I'd edit this myself but the page is locked.

The economy section asserts that "Colombia is now one of only three economies with a perfect score on the strength of legal rights index". The World Bank source PDF it cites is no longer there, but looks to be out of date anyway (2017).

According to my own research at https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.LGL.CRED.XQ?most_recent_value_desc=true&locations=CO , Colombia has never had a perfect score. It peaked at 11 out of 12.

There are (and have been) countries that do have a perfect score, for example New Zealand. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IC.LGL.CRED.XQ?most_recent_value_desc=true&locations=NZ Onetruedave (talk) 14:56, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Vandalism in Ethnic groups

User: @ElMexicanotres has been reverting for several editions without any reason, deleting information from important portals such as CIA and Public Library of Science trying to preserve obsolete genetic information from the 90s and 2000s compared to years like 2014, 2016 and 2018. Please do a review and a response soon. @citationbot @Maxeto0910. Jhoan Batipse (talk) 05:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

No I am deleting all of the genetic information because it is not needed you provided proof that there is conflicting evidence between them so it’s best not to add it here and to a different Wikipedia page and I am saying you add it to Race and ethnicity in Colombia where it does show ethnographic studies ElMexicanotres (talk) 05:12, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

You say that there cannot be genetic sources when there was an old source from 2010 there for a long time, but you do not eliminate it, you eliminate the sources of important portals such as PLOS of 2016 and 2018. Then you say that the sampled population is small, so I put one of more than 1,600 Colombians and even then you say that it should not go there. Can you explain me? Jhoan Batipse (talk) 05:18, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes I checked the name of the section and it has to do with number of ethnic groups nothing to do with the genetic studies of a country and because there are so many conflicting sources to the genetic information it’s best not to add it and maybe to place it somewhere else where both of the information can be seen, the one from 2010 and the one from 2018. ElMexicanotres (talk) 05:20, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Now you are changing the situation in your favor, when the first thing you removed was in favor of a genetic study from 2010 with data from 2000, 2003 and 2007. That is why I told you: it is vandalism because there was a genetic source that It was maintained for a long time (even with a circular diagram). I know that all the sources of genetic studies are on the main page, but then do not play to your convenience, if from the beginning you disagreed with genetic information you should delete and explain the situation. Jhoan Batipse (talk) 05:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

That is because there are two conflicting sources with almost equal amount of people, if you really want to add it so bad then stop insisting on having it on the main page but instead on the Race and ethnicity in Colombia page which I have shown you multiple times yet you continue to ignore it and keep reverting the deletion. ElMexicanotres (talk) 05:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, so I examined each of the sources. The 2018 one states “Understanding the Hidden Complexity of Latin American Population Isolates” and uses columbians from solely one state being antioquia which for obvious reasons isn’t suitable for showing as representative of an entire nation because it’s showing genetic isolates, not the common citizen of columbia. The 2015 one uses very isolated native groups for calculating native dna and not ones most present in columbia which explains why it’s not so accurate for the country, because columbians have little in common with the isolated groups which is why it’s not suitable for using. The 2014 one has purple dots over mostly antioquia (seems to be the most European state from Colombia which fits the 2010 observation of antioquia being 70% white) which also makes it not representative of the country because it focuses on one state. The 2010 one is better because it includes the specific states and their ancestries rather than focusing on a specific state, it has more people than all of the other ones, and it uses the most common native groups for their areas, and it examines all columbian ethnic groups and citizens of urban areas of the country. ElMexicanotres (talk) 20:17, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand exactly what the conflict here is, but I think both of you may be in danger of being blocked per WP:3RR, and to avoid that, you need to keep discussion about the content here in Talk. Stefen Tower_{s among the rest!} ^{Gab • Gruntwerk} 06:39, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

It is a dispute over the quality of studies about genetic ancestry in Colombia. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 23:00, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

List of sources:

• Older source, preferred by ElMexicanotres (talk · contribs):
  • Rojas, Winston; Parra, María Victoria; Campo, Omer; Caro, María Antonieta; Lopera, Juan Guillermo; Arias, William; Duque, Constanza; Naranjo, Andrés; García, Jharley; Vergara, Candelaria; Lopera, Jaime; Hernandez, Erick; Valencia, Ana; Caicedo, Yuri; Cuartas, Mauricio; Gutiérrez, Javier; López, Sergio; Ruiz-Linares, Andrés; Bedoya, Gabriel (September 2010). "Genetic make up and structure of Colombian populations by means of uniparental and biparental DNA markers". American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 143 (1): 13–20. doi:10.1002/ajpa.21270. PMID 20734436. Retrieved 13 February 2024.
• Sources preferred by Jhoan Baptise (talk · contribs):
  • Ruiz-Linares, Andrés; Adhikari, Kaustubh; Acuña-Alonzo, Victor; Quinto-Sanchez, Mirsha; Jaramillo, Claudia; Arias, William; Fuentes, Macarena; Pizarro, María; Everardo, Paola; de Avila, Francisco; Gómez-Valdés, Jorge; León-Mimila, Paola; Hunemeier, Tábita; Ramallo, Virginia; Silva de Cerqueira, Caio C. (2014-09-25). "Admixture in Latin America: Geographic Structure, Phenotypic Diversity and Self-Perception of Ancestry Based on 7,342 Individuals". PLOS Genetics. 10 (9): e1004572. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004572. ISSN 1553-7390. PMC 4177621. PMID 25254375.
  • Homburger, Julian R.; Moreno-Estrada, Andrés; Gignoux, Christopher R.; Nelson, Dominic; Sanchez, Elena; Ortiz-Tello, Patricia; Pons-Estel, Bernardo A.; Acevedo-Vasquez, Eduardo; Miranda, Pedro; Langefeld, Carl D.; Gravel, Simon; Alarcón-Riquelme, Marta E.; Bustamante, Carlos D. (2015-12-04). "Genomic Insights into the Ancestry and Demographic History of South America". PLOS Genetics. 11 (12): e1005602. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1005602. ISSN 1553-7390. PMC 4670080. PMID 26636962.
  • Mooney, Jazlyn A.; Huber, Christian D.; Service, Susan; Sul, Jae Hoon; Marsden, Clare D.; Zhang, Zhongyang; Sabatti, Chiara; Ruiz-Linares, Andrés; Bedoya, Gabriel; Endophenotypes, Costa Rica/Colombia Consortium for Genetic Investigation of Bipolar; Freimer, Nelson; Lohmueller, Kirk E. (2018-11-11). "Understanding the Hidden Complexity of Latin American Population Isolates". American Journal of Human Genetics. 103 (5): 707–726. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2018.09.013. PMC 6218714. PMID 30401458.

–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 09:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Now that the page is extended-confirmed protected, I have no choice but to start an RfC. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

RfC: Genetic ancestry of Colombians

There are two questions.

1. Should information about genetic studies in Colombia be included in this article, or only in Race and ethnicity in Colombia?
2. Which studies should be used for this information (in both articles)?
   • Rojas, Winston; Parra, María Victoria; Campo, Omer; Caro, María Antonieta; Lopera, Juan Guillermo; Arias, William; Duque, Constanza; Naranjo, Andrés; García, Jharley; Vergara, Candelaria; Lopera, Jaime; Hernandez, Erick; Valencia, Ana; Caicedo, Yuri; Cuartas, Mauricio; Gutiérrez, Javier; López, Sergio; Ruiz-Linares, Andrés; Bedoya, Gabriel (September 2010). "Genetic make up and structure of Colombian populations by means of uniparental and biparental DNA markers". American Journal of Physical Anthropology. 143 (1): 13–20. doi:10.1002/ajpa.21270. PMID 20734436. Retrieved 13 February 2024.
   • Ruiz-Linares, Andrés; Adhikari, Kaustubh; Acuña-Alonzo, Victor; Quinto-Sanchez, Mirsha; Jaramillo, Claudia; Arias, William; Fuentes, Macarena; Pizarro, María; Everardo, Paola; de Avila, Francisco; Gómez-Valdés, Jorge; León-Mimila, Paola; Hunemeier, Tábita; Ramallo, Virginia; Silva de Cerqueira, Caio C. (2014-09-25). "Admixture in Latin America: Geographic Structure, Phenotypic Diversity and Self-Perception of Ancestry Based on 7,342 Individuals". PLOS Genetics. 10 (9): e1004572. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1004572. ISSN 1553-7390. PMC 4177621. PMID 25254375.
   • Homburger, Julian R.; Moreno-Estrada, Andrés; Gignoux, Christopher R.; Nelson, Dominic; Sanchez, Elena; Ortiz-Tello, Patricia; Pons-Estel, Bernardo A.; Acevedo-Vasquez, Eduardo; Miranda, Pedro; Langefeld, Carl D.; Gravel, Simon; Alarcón-Riquelme, Marta E.; Bustamante, Carlos D. (2015-12-04). "Genomic Insights into the Ancestry and Demographic History of South America". PLOS Genetics. 11 (12): e1005602. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1005602. ISSN 1553-7390. PMC 4670080. PMID 26636962.
   • Mooney, Jazlyn A.; Huber, Christian D.; Service, Susan; Sul, Jae Hoon; Marsden, Clare D.; Zhang, Zhongyang; Sabatti, Chiara; Ruiz-Linares, Andrés; Bedoya, Gabriel; Endophenotypes, Costa Rica/Colombia Consortium for Genetic Investigation of Bipolar; Freimer, Nelson; Lohmueller, Kirk E. (2018-11-11). "Understanding the Hidden Complexity of Latin American Population Isolates". American Journal of Human Genetics. 103 (5): 707–726. doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2018.09.013. PMC 6218714. PMID 30401458.
   • A study not included on this list (please provide full citation).

–LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 10:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The 2010 source should be used 100%, I will list reasons why

• The 2014, 2015, and 2018 sources all have less sample size than the 2010 one
• 2014 and 2018 sources focus mostly on antioquia and not all of columbia, the 2018 one shows the genetics of population isolates from antioquia which it literally shows in the title and is not representative of the country, the 2014 one mostly conducts on people from antioquia and surrounding regions and not the entire country as shown by the purple dot concentration mostly being around antioquia which supported by the 2010 source is the most European state there
• The 2015 one uses isolated native groups that aren’t even similar to the native groups that colombians are closest to and being that colombians have little in common with these groups the ancestry for the native contribution shows as lower than usual
• The 2010 study shows the contribution of most of the populated states and urban columbians from those states and it has the most sample size with around 2000 it takes the genetic ancestry of the most common native groups in columbia which are more similar to the general population it has a specific breakdown of each state which has antioquia has the most white genetics and the amazon has the least
• The 2014 2015 and 2015 sources don’t specifically focus on columbia but Latin America as a whole and focus in on a specific region or city with smaller samples, they focus more on having a general overview of Latin America but aren’t specific sources for the genetics of colombians
• This one the 2010 one has been used previously and focuses on specifically columbia and the individual states while also doing research on the most common ancestry groups for colombians it is specifically trying to get the average genetics for colombians which the other three don’t and rather are trying to get a general overview of latin america

ElMexicanotres (talk) 14:19, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

And because of these things only the 2010 one should be used for the specific genetics of Colombia because it is specific to the country ElMexicanotres (talk) 14:23, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

And that includes both Colombia and Race and ethnicity in Colombia ElMexicanotres (talk) 14:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Rojas et al. should be included - All could be used for small details but Rojas et al. is best for generalizations about the entire country. XeCyranium (talk) 01:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

2010, only, on both.Mwinog2777 (talk) 16:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

No an overview article about a country isn't the place for genetic studies.... As seen by every other country article.Moxy🍁 01:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Comment It could be helpful to include if there is general agreement among the studies on certain positions. Senorangel (talk) 04:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Not here, but maybe race and ethnicity. I don't think genetic studies make much sense in this Colombia article. The Race and ethnicity article make more sense for genetics, but I would caution that genetically race and ethnicity do not exist. Racism would be validated on genetic grounds if such was actually the case. Ramos1990 (talk) 07:58, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

While I probably won’t vote on this RfC (at least #2), I feel obligated to chime in that this is completely and utterly fallacious as it misses the point. The social construction of race is not the point, as these genetic studies deal with tracing ancestry to multiple discrete and highly disparate populations, which are indeed identifiable genetically. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 12:18, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

No, agree with those above that genetics is not really due at this level of article. Human societies are not structured by haplotype. The sources in question may be relevant at Race and ethnicity in Colombia, but as RadioactiveBoulevardier mentions both race and ethnicity are more a question of sociology than of genetics. CMD (talk) 07:15, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 August 2024

Change {{About|the country|its predecessor|Gran Colombia|other uses|Colombia (disambiguation)|uses of "Columbia"|Columbia (disambiguation)|the city|Colombo}} to {{About|the country|its predecessor|Gran Colombia|other uses|Colombia (disambiguation)|the city in Sri Lanka|Colombo|a different spelling of this term|Columbia}}

Reasoning: I find it confusing, and others could as well. Ṫḧïṡ ṁëṡṡäġë ḧäṡ ḅëëṅ ḅṛöüġḧẗ ẗö ÿöü ḅÿ ᗰOᗪ ᑕᖇEᗩTOᖇ 🏡 🗨 📝 04:30, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

 Done Remsense诉 04:55, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 August 2024

Change the data that the population was 6 to 12 million before conquest to 6 to 7 million before conquest per the most accepted figure given Teotzin190 (talk) 01:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

The actual sources give no mention of a “10 million” population, the one in the graph showed 7 million and the other said 6 million Teotzin190 (talk) 04:37, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

 Question: The first and fifth graphs in the attached source show a high estimate (E3) of 12 million in 1500. Remsense诉 05:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for responding, there are differing estimates on the population where it goes from as low as 3 million in E1 to as high as 12 in E3 million but the E2 gave an average estimate of 7 million which works better as a neutral number which I think should replace the apparently “10 million” data that whoever made the article put in as it is also supported by another cite that says 6 million. Teotzin190 (talk) 05:34, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would seem clear enough from the phrasing (which I've copyedited) that the 12 million figure is the highest estimate in a range of them. We should generally be wary of "averaging" (or selecting an average) of what we consider to be the polar viewpoints on Wikipedia, lest we accidentally select a non-representative estimate. Remsense诉 05:38, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, tweaked it more. Remsense诉 05:51, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Can you mention that the middle estimate is around 6-7 million, supported by graph E2 of the cite where 7 million is given and a source published by Jaime Jaramillo Uribe in 1989 where an estimate of 6 million is given? Teotzin190 (talk) 05:56, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

My only worry would be that 6–7 is not attested as the most common range per se, but I would very much like to add a sentence to that effect, as the total range is quite large and a narrower majority range should be mentioned if it's sourceable. Are there any surveys you could point me to that say this is the range containing a majority of estimates, or something like that? If not, I could just list the four estimates individually. Remsense诉 05:59, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

There are very few sources on the matter but three support the 6-7 million range: one cited as Juan Friede (1966). Invasión del país de los chibchas. Santa Fe de Bogotá: Ediciones Tercer Mundo, pp. 19, another cited as Jaime Jaramillo Uribe (1989). Ensayos de historia social: La sociedad neogranadina. Santa Fe de Bogotá: Tercer Mundo, pp. 87. And the E2 chart of the source that’s currently being used. The first two are books. Teotzin190 (talk) 06:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Could you tell me the page number in Jaramillo Uribe 1989 that gives the 6 million figure? I can't find it with my limited Spanish abilities. Remsense诉 06:33, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

How is that? Thank you for your patience. Remsense诉 06:13, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

I think it is good, thank you. Teotzin190 (talk) 06:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Glad to help, thanks for reaching out! Remsense诉 06:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

Atlantic and Pacific coastlines

It says that "It is the only country in South America with coastlines (and islands) along both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans", but Chile also has coastlines on both oceans, doesn't it? Fangfabio (talk) 13:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 October 2024

replace the word 'football' with 'fútbol' 2601:CF:837F:C3E0:B49D:1CDF:9B1E:48FC (talk) 15:54, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: Common English spelling used. CMD (talk) 16:27, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Animation of map

The animation of the historical map would disturb some people. It doesn't meet the accessibility guidelines of the manual style which recommends animations should be under user control (or only run once). I am not technically proficient enough to modify it so I ask another editor to do so. Humpster (talk) 04:37, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Humphrey Tribble, I think I spoke to you before on Three body problem—since then, I decided the lazy way was sufficient: the results are fine when I convert GIFs directly to videos and reupload them. Should I write a little essay explaining how to do this? Remsense ‥ 论 04:45, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I think a step-by-step guide would be useful Remsense (talk · contribs). I might be able to do some conversions myself, but if not I can point other editors to the procedure. Thank you. Humpster (talk) 04:58, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Will put it on my list and get it out ASAP. Remsense ‥ 论 04:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)