Talk:Communist nostalgia

Disputed category Russian culture

Communist nostalgia is present in a significant part of Russian population. Therefore it is part of Russian culture. If you are not aware of it, then please educate yourself, e.g., by reading Wikipedia: Nostalgia for the Soviet Union.

Also I strongly suggest you not do involve in aggressive editing in areas where you do not have definite knowledge. If you do not understand something, then ask questions in article talk page. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Super Dromaeosaurus talk contribs‎ 4,408 bytes −29‎ Undid revision 1012122414 by Lembit Staan (talk): I don't see how is this related. Communism is not "Russian culture" and if we are going to add that category because Russia was once communist, we'd have to add it to the culture categories of all countries that were communist in the past

Your logical reasoning has problems. The category is not added because russia was communist; it is added because of nostalgia for communism there now. Lembit Staan (talk) 17:39, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't see what's the deal of calling out names for such an insignificant dispute, but I won't play your game. Communist nostalgia is also present in lots of former communist countries, not just Russia, but we haven't added those countries' culture categories because it would be a mess. And there's no reason for the Russian one to stand out so it's either removing it or adding the rest of culture categories of former countries. That's what I said in that edit summary. Super Ψ Dro 18:29, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I am not calling names, I am calling a spade a spade. Here is one name for you: Please learn to be humble and in the areas you have no knowledge: instead of being assertive, ask questions. Now, what is your question? Lembit Staan (talk) 20:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

As an act of courtesy, answering to a non-question: "no reason for the Russian one to stand out" - Wrong, and I already answered above. Now, to proceed further, did you read and comprehend the article I linked (including further links on the subject there)? Lembit Staan (talk) 20:41, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I have not claimed at any time to have extensive knowledge on this subject, I do not understand why I need to be "humble". That does not mean that I cannot edit this article and fix the problems that exist from my point of view. I haven't denied either that communist nostalgia is not a part of Russian culture. What I wanted to say is that it also exists in other countries and that for that reason it shouldn't stand out the Russian culture category over the other ones. That's all. Super Ψ Dro 21:17, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

I was telling you that adding category "Russian culture" is correct and I explained why. You are saying now that you are not denying that communist noistalgia is a significant part of Russian culture. Therefore the current discussion closed. As for the rest, first of all see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Now, if someone will want to add category:Estonian culture (not), we will have a separate discussion. Lembit Staan (talk) 23:22, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion was precisely about why the Russian one over others should stand out. Communist nostalgia is also a thing in Germany, Poland, Romania and several other countries. Why shouldn't we add the culture categories of these countries here? The Russian one simply doesn't stand out, it doesn't matter if it's correct or not. You don't see in Nostalgia for the Soviet Union culture categories for all its former republics, although adding every single of them would be correct, but it wouldn't make sense that for example the Turkmenistani culture category was the only one present, right? Also, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is irrelevant here. Super Ψ Dro 09:11, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

It does not matter how you change the goal of discussion. Things are discussed one thing at a time. Is communist nostalgia a significant part of Russian culture? - The answer is Yes. Therefore this article belongs to Category:Russian culture At this moment I do not care about Turkmenistan. As I said, this is a subject of separate discussion. In particular, your statement "although adding every single of them would be correct" is without merit and here my answer is "No". Lembit Staan (talk) 10:21, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Communist nostalgia is also a thing in Germany, Poland, Romania and several other countries. Why shouldn't we add the culture categories of these countries here? - My answer is I do not know and do not care. This is a matter of a separate disscussion independent of Russia. If you have evidence that communist nostalgia is a significant part of Romanian culture, then you are welcome to add the category. Lembit Staan (talk) 10:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Lembit Staan in what he or she has written here. My view is this: the Russian culture category should remain in the article (as communist nostalgia is indeed strongly present in modern Russia); at the same time, I think that it is an excellent idea to add other countries as well (presuming, of course, that communist nostalgia does exist there). I do not see why this would make a mess of the article. In the case of Romania, I am not sure (and perhaps Super Dromaeosaurus, being Romanian, could fill me in here), but in countries like Moldova and especially Transnistria, it is strongly present. I am open to help anyone who wants to look deeper into this, as it is one of my own interests. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 12:25, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I took the liberty to add a German culture and Ostalgie category (as the Ostalgie article should clearly show that communist nostalgia is present in modern Germany); in the case of other countries, I think I need to do some additional digging. Could a Transnistria category be added? Based of the flag and the symbols used, it is clear to me that we have evidence for communist nostalgia there, but I would like a second or even a third opinion before I add it. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 12:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Article expansion

I created this and several other related articles exclusively with the purpose to fill a large gap in Wikipedia. In fact, the subject is huge, and there are even books directly on the subject, such as the cited onr by Maria Todorova & Zsuzsa Gille. At the same time, as generations change, its degree decreases (and is substituted by Communist kitch), with notable exception of Russia. Some would mention Belarus, but it is de-facto "the last oasis of the Soviet past" and as such it gives less reasons for nostalgia (which is longing for something gone). Others mention Transnistria as "museum of communism"; I have no opinion here, but I would say that modern transnistrian regime got rid of die-hard communists and it is just as a corrupted jungle capitalism as Moldova with his Plahotniuc.

Unfortunately I have no much interest in the subject, especially that diverse, which would require a really scholarly work even to summarize. The only this from me is an advice: if there is a detailed info about some country, this info must go into the article about that country, "Ostalgie", etc. While this article must cover common characteristics of the phenomenon and the the trends in its development. I apologize for the self-evident remark, but I have seen only too many generic articles filled with random details which better suit for sub-articles. In other words, please remember the guideline Wikipedia:Summary style. Lembit Staan (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I have a good knowledge of Transnistria and I agree about it being a “museum of Communism” (and there are communists there), but it is true that Communism is no longer present (although fragments of such policies do remain). It is, however, revered (and even a lot of people who did not even live in the Soviet age have a positive view of it, but that is, as you suggest, not nostalgia in the truest sense of the word). Still, I would definitely say that it is one of the most important examples of such nostalgia today. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 12:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Are there any figures showing that communist nostalgia is decreasing outside of Russia, by the way? My view is the exact opposite and that it is the “1989 mindset” that is slowly disappearing (based on my experiences especially in former East Germany, Belarus, the Ukraine, Serbia, Moldova and Transnistria), but I would be interested in looking more into this. I suppose things might have changed a bit in light of the political changes throughout Europe in the past couple of years. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 12:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

In the only things Transnistria is communist is the flag and some outdated Soviet elements, and Plahotniuc is long gone in Moldova. The only reason communist nostalgia exists in Transnistria is because everything has been worse for it since the USSR's fall. Answering to Åttiotrean 226's question to me in another talk page about Romania, yes, there is some communist nostalgia, but I don't think it's because of the communist system by itself, but only because that system was there for decades and after its fall, everything changed very quickly for Romanians. I feel like not much would have changed if the government there had been an authoritarian right one instead of an authoritarian left one. I have also seen some actual nostalgic communists consider the communist republic more "Romanian" than today's Romania which has got now foreign influences and participates in globalization, so that might be one of their reasons. I also remember asking many of my relatives when I was younger and many told me that they really could not decide between the times then and now, both had their pros and cons and were too different to compare them (although that was years ago, I believe some would prefer the current situation now). Still, yes, there are some Romanians who are nostalgic for the past times because they were communist, but they are not very well known and are not taking any serious action to restore communism in Romania or something like that. I would say that far-right and, specially, monarchist movements, are the ones of this kind with the most presence now in Romania.

And regarding Moldova, I have not seen much communist nostalgia there as far as I know, I have seen mostly Moldovenism, but Moldovenists are usually conservative and some support communism, so I suppose it is present. I don't know that much about Moldova. Super Ψ Dro 14:37, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining your side of this. As for Moldova, I am not sure either. It is entirely possible that things have changed there. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 17:02, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I'd say that things indeed changed judging from the rise of the support of the union with Romania (a recent poll showed the highest percentage of people that wanted unification ever in Moldova, which was 37.5% [1]), Maia Sandu's victory in the 2020 election and the growing popularity of her party per the polls here. Super Ψ Dro 17:14, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

It will be interesting to see how it turns out. The numbers are still far too low to make it happen. We also do not know how Tiraspol will deal with a situation like that. I believe that Maia Sandu is too offensive towards the Kremlin to really be able to make any changes and that Moldova and its people will remain independent. Åttiotrean 226 ☭ 17:35, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Considering that some 20% Moldovans wanted unification at the start of the term of the Russophile and anti-Romanian Igor Dodon and that it grew under such president, one can just imagine what may happen under Sandu's pro-European presidency. I also regard her stance against Russia adequate, but those are personal opinions not really worth discussing. Super Ψ Dro 18:16, 17 March 2021 (UTC)